Irish Cider

[jnesselrode]

We were recently in Ireland and fell in love with the ciders there. My favorite was MacIvor's, but we also had Stonewell Dry, Bulmers, Cronin and some others I'm sure. We typically went for ones labeled dry or medium dry. The thing that really stood out to us was the very full body and fruit-forward flavors.

I've made hard cider several times, with generally good results. I typically have used Louisburg Cider Mill (Kansas, USA), which is absolutely delicious to drink unfermented. I've done some with additional sweetening, and some have been carbonated. None have come close to the flavors we experienced in Ireland.

It seems adding some frozen concentrate at the beginning might give the apple flavor a boost. I've also considered adding it afterward for flavor, but want to be careful to not get it too sweet. Can anyone offer advice how to get closer?

 

[Joseph Beacher]

can you post a recipe then maybe someone can give some pointers. ive noticed very good apple flavor with just juice and ale yeast. fermented dry then adding sweetener after. it obviously makes a difference what juice you use but in general if the juice tastes good unfermented it should make good cider. i know some yeasts tend to strip the flavor more than others. d47 at 70 deg burned out all the apple flavor in a recent cider i made and i wont use it again. kv1116tends to leave more fruit flavor behind imo.

 

[jnesselrode]

Sure. Here's the recipe I used:

Ingredients
5¾ gallons Louisburg Cider Mill pasteurized cider
4 teaspoons yeast nutrient
1 teaspoon acid blend
½ teaspoon pectic enzyme
½ teaspoon tannin
5 Camden tablets
1 packet Safale S-04 ale yeast

Measurements
Original specific gravity 1.048
Potential alcohol 6.0%
Final specific gravity 0.996

 

[fluketamer]

that recipe looks promising. as you said, i think apple juice concentrate after fermentation could potentially add some more apple flavor

 

[bernardsmith]

No expert cider maker but most apple juice sold in the US is made for the soft drink market and so will not have the varieties of apples used to make cider in Europe. The pH is likely to be too high, the apples prerssed are likely to have too little tannin, sugar, too much nitrogen and the like. What you might do is look for a working orchard with a range of sour, sweet, and bitter apples and see if they juice their apples for those interested in hard cider making. That said, why are you using Safale S-04? Most European ciders have more lactic acid than malic and the best yeast to use then is 71B. This converts about 40% of the malic in the apple to the more smooth and gentle lactic acid. You may need to age the

cider 12 months to experience the incredible transformation.

 

[jnesselrode]

I’m using Safale S04 because that is what was recommended. Thanks for the recommendation of another yeast. I’ll read up in that.

Also note that there is additional acid and tannin added to the local cider in that recipe, which I suspect is to improve a typical American apple cider to make it more suitable for hard cider. Do those additions seem reasonable?

 

[bernardsmith]

Adding tannin and acid will very likely help BUT the bigger problem is the selection of apples. Most cider apples you would not want to eat because they don't taste anything like what you are looking for when you buy eating apples - they may be very mealy , very sour, and the apple flavors are far broader than you might imagine. Here, in the US, most folk who cook apples cook eating apples. Folk in Britain (or Ireland) , use apples grown for cooking. The problem is that during Prohibition, apple orchards were destroyed to prevent the production of apple cider or wine and those orchards housed dozens (hundreds?) of varieties of apples that are no longer easily found in the US. Those were /are the apples that were grown for cider. The apples grown today are grown for the table, for eating.

 

[beren]

There’s a book called modern cider making that explores this. It really requires a lot of tasting and adjusting with tannins and malic acid to balance plain juice. Acid blend is mostly citric acid because it’s cheap. Stuff that is in actual apples is malic.

 

[kjdevault1]

Blending a variety of apples will also contribute greatly to a rounded fruity profile. Think crab apples, for the acid and tannin contribution as well. Greens, reds, golds. The bigger the variety the more flavor depth. Try oaking some as well, maybe adding in some very subtle spices, and lastly, some citrus zest in small quantities will add a little something extra to the finished flavor. Try a combination, maybe a quart size mason jar of some individual variations in spice and wood then blend.

 

[OleBrewing]

Not very common to have traditional cider apple of the larger variety here in the states. buddy and i would pick as many different crab apples to bring in the tannins and sourness to the crush. there are some crabs the size of a golf ball then there are some the size of marbles.

 

[jnesselrode]

One of the labels of the cider we had in Ireland boasted 10 varieties of apples. That’s not gonna be possible for me, I’m gonna have to be starting with locally available juice/cider. Some tweaks in acid, tannin and yeast are what I’m seeing as possibilities. Maybe the addition of more malic acid and tannin at the start and some frozen apple juice concentrate at the end would get me closer. I might trial and error with some 1 gallon batches.

I’d welcome any recipe ideas. I’ve looked in the recipe section and didn’t see anything promising.

 

[tracer bullet]

I know this isn't about making the cider, but Magner's here in the US is the same as the Bulmers there, just a different name. In case you want something from there until you figure out a recipe, or to compare to side by side.

 

[Miraculix]

In my humble opinion, aging is key. Let it age for one year before trying it. Completely different cider!

Next thing is apple variety. As said above, decent cider varieties would be best. Crap apples can be used to mimick them.

Anybody tried to use Cornell cherries for this mimicking? I've recently tried some and they are full of acid and tannins. Should work very well but never tried using them myself.

 

[jnesselrode]

@tracer bullet Thanks. Magner's is the closest thing I've had in the US to the ones we liked in Ireland, but (and, I don't really want to be THAT guy ), but it truly is better over there. Guinness and Smithwicks too. Just not the same here, though still pretty good.

 

[jnesselrode]

In my humble opinion, aging is key. Let it age for one year before trying it. Completely different cider!

Thanks. I made a batch from the recipe I posted above in 2017. I did age it some before the first bottle was opened and opened bottles occasionally for about a few years. The last bottle was opened in 2020 and was quite good. Very much like a light-bodied white wine. But...one bottle got pushed back on the shelf and forgotten about. I discovered it in February this year and opened it up. Still quite good, which was a bit of a surprise; about the same as the 2020 bottles. It was quite thin compared to the Irish ciders we had, and that's what I'm trying to improve on.

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks. I made a batch from the recipe I posted above in 2017. I did age it some before the first bottle was opened and opened bottles occasionally for about a few years. The last bottle was opened in 2020 and was quite good. Very much like a light-bodied white wine. But...one bottle got pushed back on the shelf and forgotten about. I discovered it in February this year and opened it up. Still quite good, which was a bit of a surprise; about the same as the 2020 bottles. It was quite thin compared to the Irish ciders we had, and that's what I'm trying to improve on.

OK, thanks für the further explanation. Than it is clearly the choice of apples. If you cannot find real cider apples, 10-30% crapapples can help.

 

[madscientist451]

The problem is that during Prohibition, apple orchards were destroyed to prevent the production of apple cider or wine and those orchards housed dozens (hundreds?) of varieties of apples that are no longer easily found in the US. Those were /are the apples that were grown for cider. The apples grown today are grown for the table, for eating.

OK, going here, but the above myth needs to be put to rest for good.
I've read several times that cider apple trees were destroyed by the US government during prohibition, but I can not find any actual proof of this happening. If any actual proof exists, please provide it.
The making and sale of alcoholic beverages was outlawed, however the production of apple and grape juice was not included in the constitutional amendment. One source says that sales of grape juice quadrupled during prohibition. If the Feds wanted to stop home production of alcohol why would apple trees be singled out. Sellers of grape juice even provided instructions about how to DIY wine, and homebrewed beer was common as well. How would a Federal agent determine which apple tree to "destroy" and which ones to leave? Wouldn't the confiscation (destruction) of apple trees violate the 4th and 14th amendments of the constitution (search and seizure of property without a warrant, due process before seizure of property)? I'm not saying some cider apple trees weren't eliminated during prohibition, but I'm just skeptical that the government was directly involved.
https://montezumaorchard.org/2021/01/14/burn-them-a-myth-of-cider-orchards-and-prohibition/

 

[jnesselrode]

OK, going here, but the above myth needs to be put to rest for good.
I've read several times that cider apple trees were destroyed by the US government during prohibition, but I can not find any actual proof of this happening. If any actual proof exists, please provide it.
The making and sale of alcoholic beverages was outlawed, however the production of apple and grape juice was not included in the constitutional amendment. One source says that sales of grape juice quadrupled during prohibition. If the Feds wanted to stop home production of alcohol why would apple trees be singled out. Sellers of grape juice even provided instructions about how to DIY wine, and homebrewed beer was common as well. How would a Federal agent determine which apple tree to "destroy" and which ones to leave? Wouldn't the confiscation (destruction) of apple trees violate the 4th and 14th amendments of the constitution (search and seizure of property without a warrant, due process before seizure of property)? I'm not saying some cider apple trees weren't eliminated during prohibition, but I'm just skeptical that the government was directly involved.
https://montezumaorchard.org/2021/01/14/burn-them-a-myth-of-cider-orchards-and-prohibition/

I suspect that apples, like so many other fruits and vegetables, have far fewer varieties available now than in the past. They just fade away if there isn't a commercial use for them. I'm sure there are more uses than eating apples, apple juice, apple cider and apple sauce, but I'd bet that's the lion's share of the usage. Maybe the resurgence of hard cider drinking and farm-to-table and such things will get us some better ciders here in the US, like the excellent ones we experienced in Ireland. Most of what we have available is too sweet, and pretty flabby. Magner's is decent.

 

[Bassman2003]

My wife really liked the cider when we were in Ireland back in the late 90s. The style was called "Scrumpy Jack" and was quite tart. One brand she liked was "Hudson Blue". She does not like most of the American ciders as they are too sweet and do not have the tart flavors. We went back to Ireland about 10 years ago and it seemed a lot of beer/cider market had changed. Not too many ciders and the beers were kind of macro based.

Anyway, I have made her cider a few times but this thread caught my attention as the flavors were not what we were aiming for. I might try some more in the future.

 

[jnesselrode]

My wife really liked the cider when we were in Ireland back in the late 90s. The style was called "Scrumpy Jack" and was quite tart. One brand she liked was "Hudson Blue". She does not like most of the American ciders as they are too sweet and do not have the tart flavors. We went back to Ireland about 10 years ago and it seemed a lot of beer/cider market had changed. Not too many ciders and the beers were kind of macro based.

Anyway, I have made her cider a few times but this thread caught my attention as the flavors were not what we were aiming for. I might try some more in the future.

We didn’t see Hudson Blue. I do remember hearing something about scrumpy as a style, but not scrumpy jack.

I’m kinda hoping for some suggestions for improving on readily available ciders or juices here. I’m not going to be able to use fruit, and hope for guidance on addition amounts for malic acid, tannin and maybe frozen concentrate after fermentation.

Can do a couple gallon test batches with varying amounts but it would be nice to get closer quicker. My recipe posted above was pretty thin.

 

[beren]

I’m kinda hoping for some suggestions for improving on readily available ciders or juices here. I’m not going to be able to use fruit, and hope for guidance on addition amounts for malic acid, tannin and maybe frozen concentrate after fermentation.

The book i mentioned has a lot of tips for dealing with store juice, and adding depth and flavor. It's a lot of trial and taste testing however.

 

[jnesselrode]

Thanks @beren I had forgotten your recommendation above. It looks like a good resource, and now it's on the way!

 

[jnesselrode]

I've made the recipe above a few times. The last time I made it, last November, I used Lallemand Saison Style yeast based on the recommendation of the guy at the homebrew shop. This batch is not nearly as good as the one I made with Safale S-04 a couple years ago. Sure, there could be other variables affecting the outcome, but I don't think I'll do that strain again. I've also used Wyeast 4766, Wyeast 4184. According to my notes, S-04 batches have been the best.

I've been reading up about yeasts and I'm pretty surprised at the wide range of yeast strains and different recommendations. There doesn't seem to be a lot of agreement but Safale S-04, Lavlin 71B, Nottingham Ale show up a lot. Haven't seen the Lallemand Saison mentioned at all. Anyhoo, looking to get the book and read up some. Pretty sure I'm going to use the same local cider I've used before, but boost the tannin some and switch from acid blend to malic.

 

[Rish]

I've wondered about (but haven't tried) if adding juice from tart cooking apples like Granny Smith or Jonathan might improve cider from store bought juice. Maybe run them through a juicer and give it a try in a 1 gallon batch.
You might also get some ideas in Graham's English Cider thread in Cider Recipes forum.

 

[Chalkyt]

I would endorse Rish's comment. Last year when we were a bit short of apples I did a couple of gallons with store-bought juice (well, really orchard bought juice from Bellvue Orchards who supply single variety juices). I blended 50% Pink Lady, 33% Golden Delicious and 17% Granny Smith and ended up with just over 7g/L TA.

I opened the last of them this week and it was "spot-on". I have seen some studies that suggest TA may reduce somewhat with storage so the final TA might have been a bit lower than when it was bottled. I didn't measure it because I was more interested in an "afternoon beverage" than "analysis paralysis"!

 

[beren]

Still missing out on tannins though.

 

[jnesselrode]

Still missing out on tannins though.

I got the Modern Cider book yesterday. I am quite surprised at the quantity of tannin she recommends - ¾ to 2½ teaspoons per 5 gallons. My base recipe posted above has just ½ teaspoon. I've read multiple times about how 'a little goes a long way' with tannin, so I didn't even consider adjusting that. She also recommends adjusting acidity and tannin after fermentation. I did adjust acidity to 0.7% last time, but didn't do anything to tannin. I like her approach of adding in increments and tasting to find the balance you like best after fermentation.

 

[genixia]

I wonder how that compares to letting cider sit in an oak barrel for months on end like they did before stainless steel took over?

 

[jnesselrode]

I wonder how that compares to letting cider sit in an oak barrel for months on end like they did before stainless steel took over?

I haven't seen much about that topic. Most of what I see and is talked about here is the blend of apples including tannic bittersharps to boost the tannin.

 

[jnesselrode]

We did a dish the other night with pork braised in (unfermented) Musselman's cider. Afterward we had some cider sitting around and a Magner's in the fridge. So I set up a couple glasses to do a thoughtful comparison of the two side-by-side.

Not surprisingly, the differences between the two were remarkable. The cider was sweet and without the sharpness of acid. It made me think of kiddie juice -- more about sweet, fairly boring and not something I seek out to drink. The Magner's had that nice, sharp acid bite on the side of the tongue and a little bitterness coming through. The carbonation tingled the tongue and complimented the acid sharpness. Underneath it all there was a sweetness present, but it was balanced out by the rest.

I know this isn't groundbreaking science, but for me, who's trying to up my cider game, this comparison really demonstrated the big difference between drinking juice/cider and hard cider. And the benefit up upping the acid and tannin when using store-bought cider or juice.

 

[tracer bullet]

Magner's

Yeah... that's a tough bar to set, but a good one to aim for. I wish I could pull it off, I try occasionally but never come close and continue to lurk threads like this hoping I might learn how.

We need a member that actually works in a cidery to give us some tips!

 

[Rish]

^^ Magners is great! Just had my first one last week and loved it. Wish I could get anywhere close to making it.

 

[jnesselrode]

^^ Magners is great! Just had my first one last week and loved it. Wish I could get anywhere close to making it.

I’m trying to get closer!

 

[beren]

How long do you let it age? I’ve heard that even mediocre cider is far better after a year or so.

 

[jnesselrode]

How long do you let it age? I’ve heard that even mediocre cider is far better after a year or so.

I definitely think aging helps, and I'd consider it a must.

@bernardsmith and @Miraculix both recommended 12 months earlier in this thread. I did a cider in 2017 and drank the last bottle this year. I wouldn't have purposely waited that long, but the bottle got overlooked. It was fine, but I don't think it had improved much the final couple years.

I'm hoping more seasoned cidermakers will chime in. I've got 3 gallons going right now. I'm going to gift some and would like to advise when to drink it.

 

[jnesselrode]

^^ Magners is great! Just had my first one last week and loved it. Wish I could get anywhere close to making it.

We went to an Irish pub near home last weekend and they had Magner's on tap! Good stuff. First time I've seen it on tap around here, but honestly I haven't been looking.