Interesting German Brewing PDF

[lari]

just finished brewing my first LoDO - wort tasted incredible.

 

[Bilsch]

just finished brewing my first LoDO - wort tasted incredible.

Excellent. What kind of beer is it?

 

[lari]

Excellent. What kind of beer is it?

simple pale ale: 90% pale, 6% wheat, 4% crystal. the caramel taste was so lovely, reminded me of werther's original candy. other things to note - no malt smell in my brew shed, extremely clear wort and protein coagulation I haven’t seen before.

 

[popquizkid]

simple pale ale: 90% pale, 6% wheat, 4% crystal. the caramel taste was so lovely, reminded me of werther's original candy. other things to note - no malt smell in my brew shed, extremely clear wort and protein coagulation I haven’t seen before.

Yep - have done a few LODO batches and the coagulation is definitely much different. I have noticed that i end up with a bunch more stuff in my fermenter as it definitely does not drop out nearly like a non-lodo batch does after chilling.

The final beer is definitely improved - even for American styles in my opinion. My LODO centennial IPA was fantastic.

 

[gifty74]

So I've been following some 'oxidation' threads as I continue to search for the source of my less than awesome off flavored beers, mostly IPAs I've done recently. For quite some time I've been chasing different aspects of brewing (pH control during mash, water with pretty great detail, hopping methods, etc) and have yet to really NAIL it. This last double IPA tasted fantastic when it was very young, within the first week of kegging, but soon after took a pretty direct turn toward the worse. The flavor or change I'm getting is pretty hard to describe, but mostly it's stale taste with a definite sour overtone. Can't use many more words to describe it, but that's what I'm getting. I have a recirculating direct fire MT setup, and the last several suspect batches (in fact as long as I can remember) I've been recirculating during the entire mash, and the outlet of the return is an inch or two above the liquid level. Try to minimize splashing, but definitely introducing some O2 there. I do not pre-boil the mash and/or sparge water. I try to minimize o2 during cold side transfers, but I'm not as 'anal' about it as the links and posts suggest in this thread. I guess I'm wondering if for those of you that have tried it, should I be giving this a 'go' in an effort to chase down this off flavor and overall displeasure with my end product? With dry hopping, I'm also wondering how to minimize o2 during the dry hopping doses. I've been reading lots about dry hopping before the end of ferm so the yeast can scavenge any o2 that was introduced.

 

[jdebonth]

So, we are almost a year past the initial publishing of the guidelines. Have the authors had a chance to substantiate their subjective claims with scientific data? DO measurements during the full process of normal vs. lodo techniques prescribed, double blind triangle tests of final beers, etc? I just checked and did not see an update or addendum to the paper.

 

[Big Monk]

So, we are almost a year past the initial publishing of the guidelines. Have the authors had a chance to substantiate their subjective claims with scientific data? DO measurements during the full process of normal vs. lodo techniques prescribed, double blind triangle tests of final beers, etc? I just checked and did not see an update or addendum to the paper.

People seem to be having much success even in the absence of documented objectivity.

 

[rabeb25]

So, we are almost a year past the initial publishing of the guidelines. Have the authors had a chance to substantiate their subjective claims with scientific data? DO measurements during the full process of normal vs. lodo techniques prescribed, double blind triangle tests of final beers, etc? I just checked and did not see an update or addendum to the paper.

I can't believe you have waited a year, to try a simple mini-mash that will kill an hour or 2 out of your day... thats dedication!

Then answer is yes, however there really is no "group" anymore. Everyone has basically gone their separate ways, so there will be no updates from the group.

Check out http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/ you should find some numbers and tests that are relevant to what you are asking.

 

[schematix]

I'm also wondering how to minimize o2 during the dry hopping doses. I've been reading lots about dry hopping before the end of ferm so the yeast can scavenge any o2 that was introduced.

I made a LoDO IPA (1lb/5gal rate) back in early October and it's still phenomenal. I used to be like you and my IPAs were dull pale ales after a week or two. Without fail.

To make the LoDO IPA i followed all of the normal LoDO advice (pre-boil mash water SMB, tighten up air leaks, etc). Where i deviated a little was that I dry hopped with extract remaining and added priming sugar to the serving vessel. Both of these are necessary to scavenge O2 when the lid is opened.

Dry hopping: The FFT said i was going to end at 1.016 so i added them in a paint bag to the keg at 1.020. Obviously i had to open the keg lid for this. After adding the dry hops i did 3 purges of the head space to help dilute some of the o2 i introduced. I let the dry hops soak for 3-4 days, at which point i was at terminal gravity.

Racking: I racked per the closed loop racking process (PM me if you want a PDF i made on the process). Once it was transferred i added the priming sugar, and again purged the head space 3 times. The kegs remained sealed for 2 weeks, then they were chilled to serving temps and served started the next day.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I made a LoDO IPA (1lb/5gal rate) back in early October and it's still phenomenal. I used to be like you and my IPAs were dull pale ales after a week or two. Without fail.

To make the LoDO IPA i followed all of the normal LoDO advice (pre-boil mash water SMB, tighten up air leaks, etc). Where i deviated a little was that I dry hopped with extract remaining and added priming sugar to the serving vessel. Both of these are necessary to scavenge O2 when the lid is opened.

Dry hopping: The FFT said i was going to end at 1.016 so i added them in a paint bag to the keg at 1.020. Obviously i had to open the keg lid for this. After adding the dry hops i did 3 purges of the head space to help dilute some of the o2 i introduced. I let the dry hops soak for 3-4 days, at which point i was at terminal gravity.

Racking: I racked per the closed loop racking process (PM me if you want a PDF i made on the process). Once it was transferred i added the priming sugar, and again purged the head space 3 times. The kegs remained sealed for 2 weeks, then they were chilled to serving temps and served started the next day.

this is my regiment for IPAs as well. I'm trying to get to the point where I put my last hops in and do not need to out gas at any point, but I always end up overcarbing

 

[Magnus314]

So, we are almost a year past the initial publishing of the guidelines. Have the authors had a chance to substantiate their subjective claims with scientific data?

Seriously? Why did you wait a year and are STILL COMPLAINING? Try it or don't WE DON'T CARE.

If it's not for you, cool. If you haven't even tested it, that's not science.

The vast majority of people who drink/taste my low DO beers vs my non- low DO beers prefer them. It's a blind test, over 150 people have gone through the "experiment" and I have no urge to prove any of it to anyone who's never tried it and thinks their "high" DO beer is better.

If you think so, good for you. Why are you here?

 

[TheHairyHop]

to get back on topic, does anyone have a corny keg spunding valve that they find to be "fool proof"? I made the one in this thread (post 12)

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=245337&page=2

but I occasionally have problems with very slow leaks

 

[TexasWine]

to get back on topic, does anyone have a corny keg spunding valve that they find to be "fool proof"? I made the one in this thread (post 12)

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=245337&page=2

but I occasionally have problems with very slow leaks

I've used this one with success. My only quibble is that I'm not convinced the pressure gauge is very accurate and it doesn't have enough resolution for the pressures we normally operate at. I would rather have a gauge ranged from 0-20 psig than the range of 0-60 psig it comes with.

http://www.homebrewing.org/Adjustab...Ok293egD_ygIiTgSQu2L_bHg1ct5xA-ExkaAprU8P8HAQ

 

[Bilsch]

These pressure relief valves are finicky bastards and occasionally leak. Also the fittings and sometimes the keg post o ring will leak as well. Myself and a few other people who spund regularly have given up leaving the valve connected full time to the keg. If you calculate the remaining extract or even more accurate, use the correct amount of carbing sugar or speise in the keg it usually comes close to the proper carbonation level sealed up and left alone. I simply use my spunding valve as a way to test the kegs a week or so after transfer and bleed a little CO2 if necessary.

 

[schematix]

These pressure relief valves are finicky bastards and occasionally leak. Also the fittings and sometimes the keg post o ring will leak as well. Myself and a few other people who spund regularly have given up leaving the valve connected full time to the keg. If you calculate the remaining extract or even more accurate, use the correct amount of carbing sugar or speise in the keg it usually comes close to the proper carbonation level sealed up and left alone. I simply use my spunding valve as a way to test the kegs a week or so after transfer and bleed a little CO2 if necessary.

I find they are useful for keeping the primary keg under a controlled pressure during the initial fermentation, but once it winds down, they will leak out all the excess pressure.

I am really nervous right now. I've got a Bock that has taken a week longer than usual, and yesterday it just started to slow down, but it's still 3-4 days away from racking at the current rate. Of course I then had to go out of town. I instructed my wife that if the pressure drops below 3.5 psi that she needs to pull the spund valves off. Chances are though she's going to tell me she's too busy to do it, and i'm going to come home to depressurized kegs in a couple days.

 

[techbrau]

A dab of keg lube on the O-ring of the spunding valve's seal will help.

That said I don't bother with a spunding valve anymore and just rack with enough residual sugar to carbonate.

 

[Bassman2003]

So you transfer from your primary to your keg before fermentation is complete? Do you add any more yeast for the carbonation? Seems easy but is it difficult to hit the right time to transfer?

 

[TheHairyHop]

A dab of keg lube on the O-ring of the spunding valve's seal will help.

That said I don't bother with a spunding valve anymore and just rack with enough residual sugar to carbonate.

this is what I do, but since I dry hop IPAs, I prefer to have a spund on after the hops hit the beer in order to maintain a positive pressure environment

 

[rabeb25]

These pressure relief valves are finicky bastards and occasionally leak. Also the fittings and sometimes the keg post o ring will leak as well. Myself and a few other people who spund regularly have given up leaving the valve connected full time to the keg. If you calculate the remaining extract or even more accurate, use the correct amount of carbing sugar or speise in the keg it usually comes close to the proper carbonation level sealed up and left alone. I simply use my spunding valve as a way to test the kegs a week or so after transfer and bleed a little CO2 if necessary.

Ugg that sucks, I have never had them leak. I have one that hasn't been used for weeks, I happen to had to move it last night and it was sitting at 10psi.

 

[Bilsch]

So you transfer from your primary to your keg before fermentation is complete? Do you add any more yeast for the carbonation? Seems easy but is it difficult to hit the right time to transfer?

With lagers you have a wider time window to hit the right level of remaining extract before transfer to the keg but with ale brewing not so much. It’s my opinion ales benefit from longer contact with the yeast cake which allows more time to clean up sulfur notes and other undesirables. So for me, priming in the keg is the preferred method of carbonation for these beers.
I always liquid purge my kegs and therefore have a hard time getting priming sugar or speise in the receiving keg without introducing any oxygen. So what I've been doing lately with success is to make up a dextrose water solution of roughly equal proportions by weight, based on the intended carbonation level, in a small Mason jar then pressure cook to sterilize and drive out the DO. I'm almost always shooting for 2 volumes in 5 gallons so I make these prime shots up ahead of time in bulk like you would do a pre-canned starter wort. And just like starter wort store them at room temperature until needed.
So about an hour before transferring the contents of a fermenter to keg.. I’ll pull the airlock from the bung and drop in a small long stem glass lab funnel and pour the prime shot into the beer that was resting on the cake. Then simply replace the airlock and wait. In about an hour active fermentation will again be visible by the evolution of CO2 and it is at this point I transfer the beer into the keg using a closed loop gas return.

With this method, similar to transferring with remaining extract, you know you have actively fermenting beer that will scavenge any errant oxygen right quick. And as added benefits you get more resident time on the yeast cake and have control on what day you will transfer your beer to the keg.

 

[Edelst0ff]

So, we are almost a year past the initial publishing of the guidelines. Have the authors had a chance to substantiate their subjective claims with scientific data?

Hello!

Sorry that you got some spirited comments. I value critical thinking and your question is more than apt.

The scientific data for the "writeup" (as I prefer to call it) are explained in great detail in the following works which were initially recommended to the "group" (if that's what you want to call this uncanny alliance of interests ).

https://www.vlb-berlin.org/en/technology-brewing-and-malting

and for the German speakers

http://eu.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-3527659889.html

some of the loose ends where translated and adapted from

http://eu.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-3527310355,subjectCd-HO40.html

Now, I would be the last one to claim any of us did a good job, but there was a very spirited effort and some pretty interesting results from attempts to translate the theories outlined in these works to smaller systems and capabilities and to try these for ourselves.

The novelty here is the use of Sulfides, similar to what is practiced since Roman times in Wine-making, in order to level the playing field to keep oxygen ingress in check in comparison with substantially larger brewing systems.

The credit for this light bulb going up goes fair and square to techbrau who is also roaming these forums on occasions.

It's a very elegant method for home brewers and we repeatedly achieve most satisfactory results. However, your mileage may vary.

Therefore I would suggest you dig into the above mentioned literature. Who knows what you might come up with? As far as I can say, the results from making the recommendation of the above literature and a modest Extech DO meter had quite an impact.

 

[lari]

hi folks,
i have a few silly questions:

1. when boiling wort, towards the end i like to drain a few litres of wort to help sanitise the tap and silicon hose. at this point how bad is splashing?

2. when transferring from kettle to fermenter in the past i have used wort sprayer thingy to help aerate the wort. for LoDO my only method of aerating is shaking which admittedly i don’t like and i want to avoid. could, perhaps leaving a fermenter semi-open for a night or so provide yeast enough oxygen for a healthy fermentation and not oxidise the beer?

 

[Jwin]

hi folks,
i have a few silly questions:

1. when boiling wort, towards the end i like to drain a few litres of wort to help sanitise the tap and silicon hose. at this point how bad is splashing?

2. when transferring from kettle to fermenter in the past i have used wort sprayer thingy to help aerate the wort. for LoDO my only method of aerating is shaking which admittedly i don’t like and i want to avoid. could, perhaps leaving a fermenter semi-open for a night or so provide yeast enough oxygen for a healthy fermentation and not oxidise the beer?

From what I've seen in this,

Cold side aeration is still advised. I would not leave the fermenter open. It wouldn't provide any real oxygen but open the door for infection. You should be able to continue to use your spray nozzle after the wort is chilled.
I'll let others field the first question if they please, but seeing as the entire process is based around HSA, I would advise against splashing. Sanitize your valve before the boil. A spray bottle of starsan will do the trick. The valve should reach over 165° fairly easily for an extended amount of time anyway.
You can spray an ounce or so inside the hose and rock it back and forth

 

[Magnus314]

You can use the wort sprayer thingy, just pitch the yeast first so they take up the oxygen they need while you are racking to the fermenter.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Going back to the "muddy" description of boiled mash water vs yeast/dextrose....

Another thing to consider is there are more dissolved gases in tap water than just oxygen (CO2, O2, N2, and others). If using the yeast/dextrose method to remove DO, then that is all you are removing, O2. If you are pre-boiling, then you are removing all dissolved gases. Would this possibly cause the muddiness?

On a side note, since CO2 reacts with water to make carbonic acid, and boiling it would remove the acid, this would raise the pH. Is this something we need to take into account when doing pH calcs? or is this negligible?

 

[rabeb25]

Going back to the "muddy" description of boiled mash water vs yeast/dextrose....

Another thing to consider is there are more dissolved gases in tap water than just oxygen (CO2, O2, N2, and others). If using the yeast/dextrose method to remove DO, then that is all you are removing, O2. If you are pre-boiling, then you are removing all dissolved gases. Would this possibly cause the muddiness?

On a side note, since CO2 reacts with water to make carbonic acid, and boiling it would remove the acid, this would raise the pH. Is this something we need to take into account when doing pH calcs? or is this negligible?

I don't think so, I think its the yeast and heating itself.

On your side note- its negligible with RO/Distilled water.

 

[bbohanon]

So I made my first attempt at LODO brewing with an IPA I make quite often so I have a reference with this recipe for any taste improvements, etc..

Ironically, the only LODO things I read up on that I needed to do with my brew day that I was NOT already doing was the pre-boil strike/sparge along with the SMB additions and making sure all stirring/recircing on the hot side was done as quietly as possible. Should be easy right? :fro:

It was a brew day of the good/bad/ugly and a bit of opining for next steps attempting this with my system...

This IPA was basically 2-row with some C60 and Munich 10.

The Mash - Was able to boil the needed strike water without issue for 10 mins in the HLT, add the appropriate amount of SMB (and other water additions as per the desired profile) and x-ferred the strike water to the MLT quietly(and with the MT lid ON.

The sparge water was boiled in the HLT next for 10 mins, SMB was added and during the chilling process and then my nephew who is my brew helper accidentally closed both valves on the HERMS (top and bottom) during sparge chill which caused pressure (water being heated rapidly) in the HERMs coil which lead it to shake and pull one of its ends OUT of the compression fitting..BLOW OUT!

Ended up having to (as quietly as possible) x-ferring the sparge water to boil kettle, fix the HERMS coil and as quietly as possible move the water back to the HLT. I probably introduced a bit more Oxygen than I wanted to with this, but it is what it is.

Mash-in - I used a SS bowl and carefully moved the grain from grain bucket into the MT and made sure I stirred very, very lightly, submerging the grains as soon as they hit the water to reduce trapped oxygen. Doing this ensured zero dough balls so there was honestly minimal stirring needed for mash-in.
I put the recirc hose under the water line of mash and left the lid on the MT on the entire time of the mash.

For the mash (I mashed at 151 for 60 with recirc again, with the recirc hose UNDER the water line), I DID notice that the wort was much clearer and brighter with much less "foam" on the surface than I normally see in it. I have pics of all of this that I will eventually post but Photobucket is acting up so that will come later.
Wort was delicious and malty.

On mash out/sparge to kettle, the wort was very clear..much clearer and was probably the clearest wort I have had to date..Again, I have pics, but will post later.

Boiled at the suggested temp for "simmering" for 60mins at 210/211 (easy to do with my system and I do this anyhow to minimize boilovers) and chilled wort to 65deg, xferred to buckets and pitched a pack and a half of S05 during fill up so it gets aerated/mixed in well.

I hit all my numbers from MT to fermenter on both the PH and gravity side so I did not see any lack in efficiency on my system going LODO at all.


Will have to wait and see how this turns out as I normally x-fer to a purged keg using the out-post for reduced splashing/oxygen introduction even when not brewing LODO and I dont have a spunding setup yet (waiting to see if any of this actually matters before spending more money with this honestly) so x-ferring to a fully purged keg will have to do for now.

Brew Day Notes:
I have high hopes for this IPA even with the sparge mishap. I really think the mash did have some significant improvement over previous batches both from a visual and sensory aspect.
I also need to find a better way to chill the sparge water in the HLT..maybe an additional bag of ice with a cooler to continually push cold water through the HERMS might do the trick but will see how this batch turns out before continuing down this road.

Additional improvements to try on my end:

- Figure out/streamline the sparge chilling issue (again a cooler with ice water getting pushed through the herms coil might work here)
- Replace all transfer hoses (planned to do this anyway this year)
- Clean/service pumps, pump connections and pump heads (planned to do this anyway this year)

All in all, this certainly added significant time to the brew day and I have yet to see an end result with this being my first batch, but if the beer is better, I will continue to move toward this path and invest more time/$$ into it.

More to come with my first LODO go as this beer gets closer to being ready.
Bill

So I racked the IPA to kegs this past weekend..I noticed the hop character was a bit more crisp and bright..the beer had a nice smooth-ness to the hop bite and the beer fermented a bit better this time around so my ABV popped a bit (never a bad thing).
I have a keg on the gas and will be pulling a first sample this weekend to see what things taste like.

I also brewed an Octoberfest on Monday using as much of the LODO process as I could and the wort again was not foamy and the aroma was very non-existent.
The wort when I pitched the yeast was really good..This one is a lager so it will take some time to finish out..will update on that one as well as things come together with it all.

More to come, but so far, so good on these last 2 batches. I am seeing changes in the beer but the final product will tell the tale.

Once my pipeline dies down a bit, I might do a dual batch over a long weekend and do a LODO and a non-LODO batch to do a more true-to-life test. Spring is coming so a dual batch with my hefe recipe might be the trick for this test.
I still have some equipment mods I really want to do before doing this test as well...

 

[Iseneye]

So, we are almost a year past the initial publishing of the guidelines. Have the authors had a chance to substantiate their subjective claims with scientific data? DO measurements during the full process of normal vs. lodo techniques prescribed, double blind triangle tests of final beers, etc? I just checked and did not see an update or addendum to the paper.

Triangle test results on the page below. 27/30 chose correctly and 27 of the tasters preferred LODO.

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/the-infamous-low-oxygen-sensory-analysis/

 

[schematix]

I have a keg on the gas and will be pulling a first sample this weekend to see what things taste like.

Unfortunately that is the end of the road for your LoDO beer. Bottle CO2 even at 99.9% purity has too much oxygen, not to mention what you picked up in transfer that won't be scavenged.

One of the crucial steps in the process is to naturally carbonate in the serving keg. In fact it's quite simple to do and someone explained how to do it within the last few pages.

 

[joshesmusica]

Unfortunately that is the end of the road for your LoDO beer. Bottle CO2 even at 99.9% purity has too much oxygen, not to mention what you picked up in transfer that won't be scavenged.



One of the crucial steps in the process is to naturally carbonate in the serving keg. In fact it's quite simple to do and someone explained how to do it within the last few pages.

Assuming one has followed the rest of the steps, except the spunding, will naturally carbonating in the keg still ensure complete LoDO? (Also assuming the racking was done properly)