Integrating RIMS into eHerms

[-CHRIS-]

I have a 20 gallon eHERMS system that uses boil coils. Temperature step changes are way too slow for me. For example, it takes 17 minutes to raise a 10 gallon mash from 154 degrees to 168 degrees for mash out.

I recently bought a 240v RIMS rocket that I intend on plumbing in the HLT recirc loop to more or less double the wattage in the HLT. I am hoping to shorten my brew day with this addition. My panel is only 30 amps so the rims will be wired to a separate circuit. For my first experimental brew, I will control the rims rocket with a simple contactor.

What I am struggling with is how do I integrate this into the brew house long term? Should I wire the rims rocket to an SSR and control it with the same PID? Should I wire it to its own PID where I can set it to a few degrees below the target temp? What are my objectives? Make controlling the rims tube as easy and seamless as possible. Prevent the rims rocket from overheating and blowing up if a pump fails.

Chris

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

Why not plumb the RIMS into the mash recirc loop instead of the HLT recirc? Heating the mash directly will give you a lot better control.

You could use the RIMS to mostly maintain your rest temperatures, and only recirc through the HERMS when you need to raise temperature between rests. Keep your HLT temp up around 170F to give you more delta T plus the RIMS should improve your ramp times significantly.

A PID controller with SSR will give you good control of the RIMS, and the HLT would probably only need simple on/off control. A contactor works for that, but so does an SSR. You do need heat sinks for SSRs but the wiring is a lot simpler than a contactor. Contactors have AC coils typically, and controllers usually output DC control signals so you need some sort of relay in between unless you get a controller that puts out an AC control signal.

 

[augiedoggy]

This is just my 2 cents so please dsont take offense to anything I say here because its not meant to be offensive but instead offer a helpful perspective from someone who switched from herms to rims.

I agree with Frobozz, I believe you honestly would just making it more difficult on yourself here and likely hurting performance vs a stand alone rims setup. the herms would actually be counterproductive in conjunction with the rims.
The best this to do is connect your rims to a pid and ssr since a contactor or mechanical will not work to keep steady temps and if its switched quickly enough to do so the contacts will heat up, fail and cause you grief.

I might be wrong but I really think you and I basically had this discussion a while back when you starting to build your Herms only you were pretty adamant then about how you were not interested in a rims or its advantages or even hearing about them. (If im wrong please disregard) but if im right, I dont know if you have formed some bad opinions of rims based on comments here but even though there is a lot of speculation of exploding rims tubes I have never actually heard of that happening here ..ever.. and if the rims is thought out and implemented correctly they are superior in performance to a herms.
You likely have worked past the common beginners mistakes (If you even ever had them) of stuck sparges and inconsistent flow problems then you have nothing to lose and a lot to gain.

If your BK or HLT pids are set up for a 240v element the easy way to do this is just use one of those with a different probe and power cord to the element. the probe MIGHT be off a degree or 2 but that easy to compensate for. NOT using a pid or fast acting temp controller with an SSR WOULD be a bad ideqa and IMHO asking for trouble down the road... Thats the kind of setup that would live up to the reputation of scorching or worse.

 

[-CHRIS-]

So I brewed yesterday and while it was better, it still isn't great. While my ramp from 152 degrees to 168 degrees in the MLT took 14 minutes instead of almost 18 minutes it wasn't as good as I hoped. My HLT to MLT delta went from 10 degrees to 17 degrees during heating so my ramp limitation is the heat transfer ability of the 50 foot stainless steel HERMS coil. I already have a PID installed in my MLT for temperature monitoring so wiring in another SSD would be pretty easy. For my next brew, I will put the RIMS Rocket inline with the MLT to see how that works.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/x7uf9fi1z55ac4t/RIMS01.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wmg7ldniaddgj8d/RIMS02.jpg?dl=0

Chris

 

[BrunDog]

Death to HERMS!

 

[jmark]

I'm curious... I built a Kal clone and I'm pretty happy with it, but now I've got a refurb Zymatic for small batch experimentation, I'm keen to overhaul my big system to add a lot more automation.

I've never really considered a RIMS setup, but the one thing I don't like about my HERMS is indeed the slow ramp times... I assume RIMS solves that? I'm also guessing that automating either setup isn't any more difficult whichever way I went, but wouldn't RIMS need more flow monitoring to avoid dry firing during a stuck recirculation or sparge?

I'm not an evangelist either way, just looking to understand the pros and cons of a RIMS system (I already have a hop rocket that I could repurpose if I go this way).

 

[BrunDog]

Look at it this way: With HERMS, you heat liquid to heat liquid. With RIMS, you heat liquid.

Everybody gets bent about RIMS scorching their wort. It is indeed possible, especially if you get a stuck mash, but if you take the proper precautions and even install some hardware or software security, the probability is really low. What we really need is an off the shelf (aka inexpensive) super-ultra-hyper-low density RIMS heater, aka @augiedoggy 's type of design.

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

What we really need is an off the shelf (aka inexpensive) super-ultra-hyper-low density RIMS heater, aka @augiedoggy 's type of design.

I really like Augiedoggy's system as well. One thing I did come across in my researches about cartridge heaters is that some are not rated for immersion in liquids but I have no idea how to tell which ones are and are not. Augie - any advice on this?

One possible alternative to a cartridge heater that is closer to "off the shelf" might be one of these two heaters from ebrew supply; run them at 120V vs. 240V/208V and you get 1500W or 2000W with a pretty long element and thus, really low watt density:

http://www.ebrewsupply.com/304-stainless-steel-element-6000w-straight/


http://www.ebrewsupply.com/304-stainless-steel-element-6000w-straight-208v/

Both of these have the standard 1" straight thread that all the RIMS tubes on the market have. You'd need to extend the length by 6 inches or so, but with the tri-clamp RIMS tubes, that would be fairly easy.

 

[-CHRIS-]

I've never really considered a RIMS setup, but the one thing I don't like about my HERMS is indeed the slow ramp times... I assume RIMS solves that?

Yes and no, you are still only putting 5k watts or so of energy into the wort. Yes a RIMS tube will be more efficient but I am still looking to increase my total wattage in to 8-10k watts with the system I have.

The culprit is the poor heat transfer of the stainless steel coil. With 8.5k watts in the HLT heating 14 gallons of water with 7 gallons in the MLT I observed a 17 degree differential between the HLT and MLT. I am going to see if I can get a 50' coil made out of copper tubing to improve heat transfer.

I really think the Sabco design is probably the best out there for speed. Gas burners under each kettle for quick heating and a RIMS tube for temperature management of the MLT.

I want to avoid putting the RIMS Rocket in the MLT circulation loop since I don't want to have to take it apart and clean it after every brew.

BrunDog's system, while innovative with it's "on-demand water heater" for sparge water, doesn't fit my needs. I already have 3 vessels and plenty of room in my brewery for having a dedicated HLT.

Chris

 

[jmark]

Yes and no, you are still only putting 5k watts or so of energy into the wort. Yes a RIMS tube will be more efficient but I am still looking to increase my total wattage in to 8-10k watts with the system I have.



The culprit is the poor heat transfer of the stainless steel coil. With 8.5k watts in the HLT heating 14 gallons of water with 7 gallons in the MLT I observed a 17 degree differential between the HLT and MLT. I am going to see if I can get a 50' coil made out of copper tubing to improve heat transfer.



I really think the Sabco design is probably the best out there for speed. Gas burners under each kettle for quick heating and a RIMS tube for temperature management of the MLT.



I want to avoid putting the RIMS Rocket in the MLT circulation loop since I don't want to have to take it apart and clean it after every brew.



BrunDog's system, while innovative with it's "on-demand water heater" for sparge water, doesn't fit my needs. I already have 3 vessels and plenty of room in my brewery for having a dedicated HLT.



Chris

That's really weird... while my ramp times are similarly slow, my HERMS unit has about a 1 degree differential with similar volumes to yours and I have a 50 ft stainless coil. Eventually, even that differential goes away late in the mash. Where are your temp probes and what are you using material-wise for your vessels?

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

I want to avoid putting the RIMS Rocket in the MLT circulation loop since I don't want to have to take it apart and clean it after every brew.

I used to take apart my RIMS due to the same fear, but it was clean each time so I don't bother anymore. If you fly sparge, you are flushing the RIMS tube with 170F water for 30-60 minutes. You are basically doing a CIP as you sparge. Every once in a while, I'll run hot PBW through it and rinse, but only because I'm doing it for the rest of my system, and it's easy to do.

 

[BrunDog]

I used to take apart my RIMS due to the same fear, but it was clean each time so I don't bother anymore. If you fly sparge, you are flushing the RIMS tube with 170F water for 30-60 minutes. You are basically doing a CIP as you sparge. Every once in a while, I'll run hot PBW through it and rinse, but only because I'm doing it for the rest of my system, and it's easy to do.

True on this. I heat wort at 5500W, but with the fly sparge and a PBW CIP, its always clean.

 

[BrunDog]

Yes and no, you are still only putting 5k watts or so of energy into the wort. Yes a RIMS tube will be more efficient but I am still looking to increase my total wattage in to 8-10k watts with the system I have.

The culprit is the poor heat transfer of the stainless steel coil. With 8.5k watts in the HLT heating 14 gallons of water with 7 gallons in the MLT I observed a 17 degree differential between the HLT and MLT. I am going to see if I can get a 50' coil made out of copper tubing to improve heat transfer.

I really think the Sabco design is probably the best out there for speed. Gas burners under each kettle for quick heating and a RIMS tube for temperature management of the MLT.

I want to avoid putting the RIMS Rocket in the MLT circulation loop since I don't want to have to take it apart and clean it after every brew.

BrunDog's system, while innovative with it's "on-demand water heater" for sparge water, doesn't fit my needs. I already have 3 vessels and plenty of room in my brewery for having a dedicated HLT.

Chris

How about using your HLT, but ditching the HERMS in favor of a full power RIMS? You could put 3-way valves on each side (input and output) of the RIMS. Pump water from your HLT, back into your HLT at 240V to heat it. Then switch the output side of the RIMS into the MT. Then switch the input to the RIMS so it comes from the MT for recirculation, and drop the RIMS down to 120V. Then switch back to 240Vfor Mashout, then switch the input of the RIMS from the HLT again to fly sparge. You could switch back to recirculate the HLT to bring it up to temp first, which would only take a couple of minutes. Anyway, food for thought.

Oh, and Death to HERMS!

 

[augiedoggy]

i used to take apart my rims due to the same fear, but it was clean each time so i don't bother anymore. If you fly sparge, you are flushing the rims tube with 170f water for 30-60 minutes. You are basically doing a cip as you sparge. Every once in a while, i'll run hot pbw through it and rinse, but only because i'm doing it for the rest of my system, and it's easy to do.

ditto!

 

[augiedoggy]

That's really weird... while my ramp times are similarly slow, my HERMS unit has about a 1 degree differential with similar volumes to yours and I have a 50 ft stainless coil. Eventually, even that differential goes away late in the mash. Where are your temp probes and what are you using material-wise for your vessels?

With 50ft of coil unless your pumping the wort too fast or using too large a diameter of tubing there should be no differential between the hlt and wort leaving the herms coil..

We are missing important factors here that might point to the actual problem like flow rate and whether the hlt water is being mixed and even because regardless of what some people believe, without it you do get stratification. if the liquid isnt at a rolling boil its doesnt mix well on its own especially around the coils where its wicking away the heat from the liquid and cooling it.
look at an immersion chiller and how much better it works when you stir the wort around it. Same thing in reverse here.

Also one of the reasons I ditched my herms was if your strike temps were off at all the ramping time was too slow to correct it in time. I found a lot of conversion actually takes place in the first 10-15 minutes and if its taking that long to ramp and get to the correct mash temp then your beer is going to be different than what you expected.

 

[jmark]

... the hlt water is being mixed and even because regardless of what some people believe, without it you do get stratification.

+100 on this... I recirculate water in my HLT but have forgotten to do that in the past and had issues keeping the MLT at temp.

 

[BrunDog]

Yes AD is spot-on and being all sensible about solving the problem. I just want HERMs to die!!

Ok, I'll stop now. Maybe. ;-)

 

[-CHRIS-]

That's really weird... while my ramp times are similarly slow, my HERMS unit has about a 1 degree differential with similar volumes to yours and I have a 50 ft stainless coil. Eventually, even that differential goes away late in the mash. Where are your temp probes and what are you using material-wise for your vessels?

In steady state, the HLT and MLT are only a degree apart. With 5500watts I noticed a 10 degree differential when I am ramping up the temp of the HLT (for example during mash out) Now with 8500 watts, the temp differential is 17 degrees.

I have 20 gallon Blichmann kettles, boil coils and a 50' x 1/2" HERMS coil.

Make sense?

 

[-CHRIS-]

How about using your HLT, but ditching the HERMS in favor of a full power RIMS? You could put 3-way valves on each side (input and output) of the RIMS. Pump water from your HLT, back into your HLT at 240V to heat it. Then switch the output side of the RIMS into the MT. Then switch the input to the RIMS so it comes from the MT for recirculation, and drop the RIMS down to 120V. Then switch back to 240Vfor Mashout, then switch the input of the RIMS from the HLT again to fly sparge. You could switch back to recirculate the HLT to bring it up to temp first, which would only take a couple of minutes. Anyway, food for thought.

Oh, and Death to HERMS!

This is an interesting idea. I also could use HLT as is, ditch the HERMS and use the RIMS to heat the MLT. I would pull strike water and sparge water from the HLT. More like a commercial brewery actually.

I may try this on the next brew.

Beersmith does a great job calculating the thermal mass and I have not had an issue missing my mash temps during mash in. I love my HERMS system for its efficiency and repeatability, I just want to speed up my brew day. It sounds like you guys have already been there and done that!

 

[BrunDog]

Just had a thought too... instead of 120/240V into your RIMS tube, you could run full time on 240, but set up an output limiter for the Mash Recirc. That should be a setting on your PID (max output or something similar).

 

[augiedoggy]

This is an interesting idea. I also could use HLT as is, ditch the HERMS and use the RIMS to heat the MLT. I would pull strike water and sparge water from the HLT. More like a commercial brewery actually.

I may try this on the next brew.

This is what I do.. Its a pretty tried and true setup here. I have been using rims for a few years now and it works very well I thought about doubling up the length of mine and using the 2 1800w elements I have but the true is I step mash so rarely I dont know if its worth it for me. as it stands now the 1800w rims I use is really more than enough and much quicker than my old rims.

 

[jmark]

Hey auggie... how quick are your steps and what sort of volumes are you pushing? I'm thinking of revamping my Kal clone to add automation and if RIMS truly is where it's at, then I'm curious to what it can bring me.

 

[augiedoggy]

Hey auggie... how quick are your steps and what sort of volumes are you pushing? I'm thinking of revamping my Kal clone to add automation and if RIMS truly is where it's at, then I'm curious to what it can bring me.

I dont want to go quoting numbers from memory here but when I make an 11gallon size batch of beer and I want to step mash I get almost 3 degrees per minute rise with it. (on a delay because I am recircing at only 1.8 gallons per minute.)

 

[jmark]

That sounds fantastic... I get a little over a degree a minute on my 6 gallon batches, but that's more of a ramp than a step! With automation, I suppose it would be fairly 'trivial' to adjust flow to avoid stuck mashes and/or dry-firing the RIMS? And probably wouldn't need a high-powered element either since the volume in the RIMS at any one time is quite low.

 

[Honda88]

Yes AD is spot-on and being all sensible about solving the problem. I just want HERMs to die!!

Ok, I'll stop now. Maybe. ;-)

LOL the dog has spoken.