Inexpensive (but good) reverse osmosis system?

[RonRock]

I have my RO system in my basement, ran a line up and into a 25 gallon holding tank in the garage. From the tank I pump into my HLT for brewing. I set this up last fall and went through winter without concern. My garage gets cold but not freezing.

So anyone know how long the RO water can set in a 25 gallon tank when the summer weather comes around? Will the water get bad from sitting in the heat if it is weeks or months between using? I also use the RO water for coffee and Ice Tea, but that don't take much out of the tank.

 

[kincade]

I have my RO system in my basement, ran a line up and into a 25 gallon holding tank in the garage. From the tank I pump into my HLT for brewing. I set this up last fall and went through winter without concern. My garage gets cold but not freezing.

So anyone know how long the RO water can set in a 25 gallon tank when the summer weather comes around? Will the water get bad from sitting in the heat if it is weeks or months between using? I also use the RO water for coffee and Ice Tea, but that don't take much out of the tank.

I'm not sure the time it sits in the tank is a concern as far as going 'bad', but it will pick up some taste. If it's over a month I personally would drain it and let it refill. I'd also make sure you are using a polishing filter post tank as these are always recommended post tank.

Heat wise, if it gets too hot it can ruin the bladder in the tank or impart more taste from the bladder to water. How hot will it get?

 

[kincade]

I would be interested in specific comments from anyone concerning the waste water question. Not on how to get rid of it, but the amount generated. The vendors and manufacturers don't post a lot of information about this, and I've heard figures as high as 4 gallons waste to every gallon generated with RO systems.......which is too much for me. I'm sticking with the machine at the grocery store until I can get a handle on this issue.

Actually, the waste water ratio can go much higher than 4:1 on some systems. That is most certainly not the upper limit.

I'd contact each company/vendor individually... The waste ratio can be determined by a litany of factors and no company will be able to state with certainty what YOUR waste ratio will be without knowing all of them (inlet water temperature, inlet water pressure, age of membrane, age of prefilters, etc). Even taking those into account it will change year round due to temp and pressure fluctuations. Be very wary of anyone who claims otherwise in order to gain your hard earned money. The permeate pump will cut down on waste in all cases with the disadvantage of costing more money up front.

Be aware that 1.25:1 sounds like an awfully optimistic waste ratio even with a permeate pump. Without a pump of some sort I'm not aware of any system that can achieve it.

 

[Jukas]

Be aware that 1.25:1 sounds like an awfully optimistic waste ratio even with a permeate pump. Without a pump of some sort I'm not aware of any system that can achieve it.

I'll comment on this as I was the one who recommended this system from filterguys and own it. I too was a bit skeptical yet even when I had really low pressure in the low 50psi range I never got worse than 2:1. My house currently runs 60psi and I'm hitting right about 1.5:1 which again I consider acceptable since they say they recommend at least 65psi or a booster pump.

So at my worse I was cutting my waste water in half from a 4:1 spec system assuming it didn't go over 4:1 atsub 65psi

To get downtown 1.25:1 you need tobe running a booster pump and hitting 90+psi

Take a look at http://www.thefilterguys.biz/test_results.htm

 

[kincade]

I'll comment on this as I was the one who recommended this system from filterguys and own it. I too was a bit skeptical yet even when I had really low pressure in the low 50psi range I never got worse than 2:1. My house currently runs 60psi and I'm hitting right about 1.5:1 which again I consider acceptable since they say they recommend at least 65psi or a booster pump.

So at my worse I was cutting my waste water in half from a 4:1 spec system assuming it didn't go over 4:1 atsub 65psi

To get downtown 1.25:1 you need tobe running a booster pump and hitting 90+psi

Take a look at http://www.thefilterguys.biz/test_results.htm

Are you running a permeate/booster pump? Dual membranes? Those are excellent waste water numbers.

One more comment: Im not a big fan of the clear housings. Although it's nice to be able to see the sediment in the canister it doesn't tell you much about the condition of the filters. And the downside is that light can contribute to the growth of algae/mold in your canisters.

 

[Jukas]

Are you running a permeate/booster pump? Dual membranes? Those are excellent waste water numbers.

One more comment: Im not a big fan of the clear housings. Although it's nice to be able to see the sediment in the canister it doesn't tell you much about the condition of the filters. And the downside is that light can contribute to the growth of algae/mold in your canisters.

I'm not running a booster pump, just going with the 62psi out of my pipes as I didn't feel like spending the extra $150for the pump. I guess I should math it out and see how long the additional .25 - .5 gal savings would take to recoup that cost.

I am running a dual membrane, the exact unit I'm running can be seen here http://www.thefilterguys.biz/water_saver_ro_di.htm thought added on a Tds meter and DI bypass and a psi gauge. I think all told it set me back $340ish, but I purchased it for making water for my saltwater reef tank so I had higher requirements than simply filtering for drinking/brewing.

 

[RonRock]

I'm not sure the time it sits in the tank is a concern as far as going 'bad', but it will pick up some taste. If it's over a month I personally would drain it and let it refill. I'd also make sure you are using a polishing filter post tank as these are always recommended post tank.

Heat wise, if it gets too hot it can ruin the bladder in the tank or impart more taste from the bladder to water. How hot will it get?

Thanks for the help. I am using a holding tank, no bladder. Not sure on how hot the water will get, but summer temps in Iowa are often in the 90's. Probably not that high in my garage. I'll have to look into a polishing filter.

 

[kincade]

I'm not running a booster pump, just going with the 62psi out of my pipes as I didn't feel like spending the extra $150for the pump. I guess I should math it out and see how long the additional .25 - .5 gal savings would take to recoup that cost.

I am running a dual membrane, the exact unit I'm running can be seen here http://www.thefilterguys.biz/water_saver_ro_di.htm thought added on a Tds meter and DI bypass and a psi gauge. I think all told it set me back $340ish, but I purchased it for making water for my saltwater reef tank so I had higher requirements than simply filtering for drinking/brewing.

Just to clarify for others who may read this, there are 2 style of pumps. The permeate pump which is powered by incoming water pressure and is not electrical is the first. The electrical aquatec is another which boosts incoming water pressure. The permeate pump is usually about $50 more, and the booster pumps are usually above $100 + electrical costs.

Sounds like a nice unit. The requirements are certainly higher and more stringent for those that keep reef tanks, as are the potential losses.

 

[johnlvs2run]

I've been using RO systems from Ebay for years and they're great.

The current price range is $135 to 150 (and up) , plus a handheld TDS meter.

I use 1 micron filters, plus a 5 micron whole house filter at the front of the house.

The post filter just adds junk back into the water, so I take it off and toss it away.

It helps a lot to get a $20 handheld TDS meter so you can test the total dissolved solids in the water anytime. My current system takes the TDS from 360 to 6, which is pretty good. The TDS is higher when water first comes out of the spigot, as there is some "creep" in the membrane and lines that needs to be flushed. I let the spigot drip for 5 minutes before saving 3-4 gallons of water at a time. Test the water in a cup with the meter to see when it's ready to save. I always run the tank completely empty every time the RO system is used, and save the water in 1/2 gallon canning jugs with plastic lids.

The membrane that came with the last RO system was terrible, so I got a much better one from an Ebay seller in Florida for $26. I used to use distilled water all the time, but having the RO system right in the house is much more convenient, easier, and less expensive.

Definitely get a permeate pump, that runs automatically with the pressure of the water. As the tank fills, it takes more and more pressure (and/or time) to fill it, and more and more water is wasted. For example if at the start there are 3 gallons wasted for every gallon saved, as the tank fills the reject water can increase to 30 gallons wasted for every gallon saved! With a permeate pump, the 1:3 ratio is always the same.

 

[Yooper]

We use ours a ton for everything from coffee, water for humidifiers, mix with formula, brewing, dogs water, and of course drinking water. I just test with TDS meter about every 6 months or so. The summers chloramine is tough on the system so I buy the Chloramine filter pack for like $25. So with an average TDS of 150-160 out of the faucet I have to replace my prefilters every 6 months or so. Here's the one I have:

http://www.airwaterice.com/product/1WATERCOP/WaterCop-5-Stage-Kitchen-RO.html

I'm seriously considering this unit. I have some dumb questions, though. Do you hook up a hose to it for wastewater? And instead of filling the tank, can I just fill my HLT? (I've never seen an RO system hooked up and can't for the life of me picture how to do this).

 

[lagavulin]

I've been using RO systems from Ebay for years and they're great.

The current price range is $135 to 150 (and up) , plus a handheld TDS meter.

I use 1 micron filters, plus a 5 micron whole house filter at the front of the house.

The post filter just adds junk back into the water, so I take it off and toss it away.

It helps a lot to get a $20 handheld TDS meter so you can test the total dissolved solids in the water anytime. My current system takes the TDS from 360 to 6, which is pretty good. The TDS is higher when water first comes out of the spigot, as there is some "creep" in the membrane and lines that needs to be flushed. I let the spigot drip for 5 minutes before saving 3-4 gallons of water at a time. Test the water in a cup with the meter to see when it's ready to save. I always run the tank completely empty every time the RO system is used, and save the water in 1/2 gallon canning jugs with plastic lids.

The membrane that came with the last RO system was terrible, so I got a much better one from an Ebay seller in Florida for $26. I used to use distilled water all the time, but having the RO system right in the house is much more convenient, easier, and less expensive.

Definitely get a permeate pump, that runs automatically with the pressure of the water. As the tank fills, it takes more and more pressure (and/or time) to fill it, and more and more water is wasted. For example if at the start there are 3 gallons wasted for every gallon saved, as the tank fills the reject water can increase to 30 gallons wasted for every gallon saved! With a permeate pump, the 1:3 ratio is always the same.

Wow, so they waste quite a bit of water, eh?

 

[passedpawn]

I'm seriously considering this unit. I have some dumb questions, though. Do you hook up a hose to it for wastewater? And instead of filling the tank, can I just fill my HLT? (I've never seen an RO system hooked up and can't for the life of me picture how to do this).

Mine is outdoors and feeds a reservoir that feeds a fish tank, but...

Mine is fed by a hose. I have a dedicated valve that turns the water on. The RO units produces just a trickle of water, but there is steady stream (think about a stream of pee) that gets wasted. My waste output is small tubing used for refrigerator icemakers. My waste goes into the grass.

I also have a DI unit.

 

[Clonefarmer]

I'm seriously considering this unit. I have some dumb questions, though. Do you hook up a hose to it for wastewater? And instead of filling the tank, can I just fill my HLT? (I've never seen an RO system hooked up and can't for the life of me picture how to do this).

Here is a pic of an RO unit hooked up

The red hose comes from the sink faucet. Water goes into the sediment filter then through the charcoal filter into the RO filter. The RO mebrane rejects waste water which comes out of the black hose. This RO unit also has a DI filter which the water passes through before coming out the blue hose.

I had this one hooked up to a reservoir with a float valve. The float valve allows the reservoir to fill to a certain level then shuts off the flow. This unit is a 75 gpd. It takes quite a while to fill a 5 gallon container, but with a float valve the water can left on while filling without the worry of overflowing the container.

 

[Jukas]

I'm seriously considering this unit. I have some dumb questions, though. Do you hook up a hose to it for wastewater? And instead of filling the tank, can I just fill my HLT? (I've never seen an RO system hooked up and can't for the life of me picture how to do this).

You could put the RO out line directly to your HLT but the fill rate is going to be less than impressive. It takes me 10-11 minutes on my 150 gpd unit at 60psi during the winter to fill 1 gallon, in the summer when the water is warmer I can get it down to about 9 minutes per gallon.

Most likely you'll want to get a holding tank, or have buckets of patience

 

[passedpawn]

When my REEF world and my BEER world collide, it's like

Can we add something about Stamp Collecting, and possibly some really nerdy analog electronics talk. My pants will explode.

 

[Yooper]

Here is a pic of an RO unit hooked up

The red hose comes from the sink faucet. Water goes into the sediment filter then through the charcoal filter into the RO filter. The RO mebrane rejects waste water which comes out of the black hose. This RO unit also has a DI filter which the water passes through before coming out the blue hose.

I had this one hooked up to a reservoir with a float valve. The float valve allows the reservoir to fill to a certain level then shuts off the flow. This unit is a 75 gpd. It takes quite a while to fill a 5 gallon container, but with a float valve the water can left on while filling without the worry of overflowing the container.

That helps SO much! Thank you. I think I will mount it right on the counter of the laundry room, assuming those hoses are long enough to reach across for the waste water to go into the washing machine. A picture really IS worth a thousand words!

 

[Yooper]

Can we add something about Stamp Collecting, and possibly some really nerdy analog electronics talk. My pants will explode.

No. Your pants exploding is NOT something we want to see.

But...............I know what you mean. My soapmaking has collided with brewing a few times and it's been like nirvana.

I can't picture how to add my other hobbies, though, as they seem like they don't go together with brewing. Hockey, for example. It's hard to brew with skates on. But it's great to drink beer with skates on. At one of the pond hockey tournaments (LaBatt's is the sponsor), you get a case of beer for each game with two cases for a win. You just skate through and pick up the cases. Even if it IS LaBatt's, it's pretty awesome. We kept winning, and got second in the tournament. We were completely loaded by the final game, though.

Anyway, due to my incompetence with math, science, heavy lifting, and inability to keep water in its containers, (please see "reducing alkalinity with slaked lime" thread if you actually care enough to wonder), Bob decided today that I should proceed with buying the RO system. If I can figure out how to hook it up and use it.

 

[passedpawn]

No. Your pants exploding is NOT something we want to see.

But...............I know what you mean. My soapmaking has collided with brewing a few times and it's been like nirvana.

I can't picture how to add my other hobbies, though, as they seem like they don't go together with brewing. Hockey, for example. It's hard to brew with skates on. But it's great to drink beer with skates on. At one of the pond hockey tournaments (LaBatt's is the sponsor), you get a case of beer for each game with two cases for a win. You just skate through and pick up the cases. Even if it IS LaBatt's, it's pretty awesome. We kept winning, and got second in the tournament. We were completely loaded by the final game, though.

Anyway, due to my incompetence with math, science, heavy lifting, and inability to keep water in its containers, (please see "reducing alkalinity with slaked lime" thread if you actually care enough to wonder), Bob decided today that I should proceed with buying the RO system. If I can figure out how to hook it up and use it.

So, I've got all this extra lye sitting here, and a bunch of crisco... I do really want to make soap. Coconut oil is so frigging expensive though...

 

[Yooper]

So, I've got all this extra lye sitting here, and a bunch of crisco... I do really want to make soap. Coconut oil is so frigging expensive though...

Lard. Seriously, good old lard. Best there is. Unless you're a vegan, and then Crisco 100% vegetable shortening from Wal-Mart is the next best thing.

I do this "gourmet" soaps, with olive oil and coconut oil and palm oil, with shea butter and goat's milk, and so on. But the first soap I made was with crisco , with 1/4 cup of pulverized oatmeal, and it was wonderful.

 

[johnlvs2run]

IDo you hook up a hose to it for wastewater?

Yes, there's a 1/4 inch hose that is connected to a drain.

And instead of filling the tank, can I just fill my HLT?

Yes, you can fill anything that you want.

I have the permeate water go to a 4 gallon tank, then when it's full and I'm ready, empty the tank to glass jars.

 

[dragonbreath11]

Here is a pic of an RO unit hooked up

The red hose comes from the sink faucet. Water goes into the sediment filter then through the charcoal filter into the RO filter. The RO mebrane rejects waste water which comes out of the black hose. This RO unit also has a DI filter which the water passes through before coming out the blue hose.

I had this one hooked up to a reservoir with a float valve. The float valve allows the reservoir to fill to a certain level then shuts off the flow. This unit is a 75 gpd. It takes quite a while to fill a 5 gallon container, but with a float valve the water can left on while filling without the worry of overflowing the container.

Ok, for brewing is the DI filter necessary?

 

[johnlvs2run]

Ok for brewing is the DI filter necessary?

I was told the DI is not good for drinking, as it doesn't taste very good.

The DI removes additional TDS, but might add chemicals in suspension, besides being much more expensive to produce.

 

[Clonefarmer]

That helps SO much! Thank you. I think I will mount it right on the counter of the laundry room, assuming those hoses are long enough to reach across for the waste water to go into the washing machine. A picture really IS worth a thousand words!

The hoses on the one I have are pretty long. I have it mounted in the basement and have the feed hose running up through an access panel in a closet to a first floor room. The waste water hose I had to extend to reach the hops in the backyard.

Here is a 75 GPD unit from the place I got mine. BRS 75 GPD no DI Their customer service is awesome. I bet if you asked they could give you the length of hose you need.

Ok, for brewing is the DI filter necessary?

Nope. For brewing you would only need a sediment cartridge, carbon cartridge and an RO membrane. The DI is only necessary when generating pure water for a Reef tank.

 

[Seven]

I contacted Airwaterice about their RO systems and they recommended installing the RO unit inside the house even though I told them we have a whole house water softener system already installed. They said using the softened water with their RO filter would work better than using the un-softened water from an outdoor garden house. Does this sound correct?

 

[Clonefarmer]

I contacted Airwaterice about their RO systems and they recommended installing the RO unit inside the house even though I told them we have a whole house water softener system already installed. They said using the softened water with their RO filter would work better than using the un-softened water from an outdoor garden house. Does this sound correct?

If the water softener removes stuff from the water to make it softer then using the RO on the softened water makes sense. If the water softener is adding salts or something to the water to soften the water the RO will have to remove whatever the softener is adding.

I'm not too familiar with water softeners, but I'm pretty sure they add stuff to the water. I would double check to see what the deal is.

 

[bja]

I was told the DI is not good for drinking, as it doesn't taste very good.

The DI removes additional TDS, but might add chemicals in suspension, besides being much more expensive to produce.

There's no difference in the taste of RO/DI water compared to RO water. RO water will have a very small TDS reading because the membrane is not 100% efficient. The DI only removes the last remaining TDS. It does not add anything to the water, especially chemicals (I don't know how people come up with this stuff).

 

[djt17]

I was told the DI is not good for drinking, as it doesn't taste very good.

The DI removes additional TDS, but might add chemicals in suspension, besides being much more expensive to produce.

I drink DI water all the time at work, it tastes fine; the city water is terrible.

 

[dragonbreath11]

The hoses on the one I have are pretty long. I have it mounted in the basement and have the feed hose running up through an access panel in a closet to a first floor room. The waste water hose I had to extend to reach the hops in the backyard.

Here is a 75 GPD unit from the place I got mine. BRS 75 GPD no DI Their customer service is awesome. I bet if you asked they could give you the length of hose you need.


Nope. For brewing you would only need a sediment cartridge, carbon cartridge and an RO membrane. The DI is only necessary when generating pure water for a Reef tank.

Do you use yours in brewing? Do you make chemical adjustments, mix half with tap water, or just use the RO water. Have you noticed your brews taste better with RO water?

 

[Yooper]

The hoses on the one I have are pretty long. I have it mounted in the basement and have the feed hose running up through an access panel in a closet to a first floor room. The waste water hose I had to extend to reach the hops in the backyard.

Here is a 75 GPD unit from the place I got mine. BRS 75 GPD no DI Their customer service is awesome. I bet if you asked they could give you the length of hose you need.

Does it hook up to the sink with an adapter? And then you just remove it when not using it? How often have you had to change the filter, and do you monitor with a TDS meter? Is it really ready to go out of the box? What else do you need? Anything for flushing the membrane?

 

[Clonefarmer]

Do you use yours in brewing? Do you make chemical adjustments, mix half with tap water, or just use the RO water. Have you noticed your brews taste better with RO water?

No, the RO water was only for a Reef tank. I use tap water that has been through a simple tap water filter for brewing. The city water here is pretty decent quality. It tastes good out of the tap and even better when carbon filtered. The water is soft with 35 TDS, but there is allot of phosphate. The phosphate hasn't been an issue with brewing, but it wreaks havoc on a Reef system.

 

[Clonefarmer]

Does it hook up to the sink with an adapter? And then you just remove it when not using it? How often have you had to change the filter, and do you monitor with a TDS meter? Is it really ready to go out of the box? What else do you need? Anything for flushing the membrane?

It came with a sink adapter which is hooked up to the utility sink. The adapter has a lever on the side that allows the faucet to still be used.

The sediment and carbon filters have to be changed about every 6 months or so depending on the water quality. The RO membrane should last years as long as the pre filters are maintained. The DI will last a while and will change color as it loses usefulness.

The TDS meter is inline and monitors both the water going in and coming out. They can also be put inline between the RO and DI and at the output to monitor the condition of the RO membrane. There are also handheld TDS meters.

The one I got was ready to go I just had to hook it up to the faucet and the reservoir.

From what I've read there is no need for a flush kit. The membrane gets flushed by the waste water during the filtering process.

I got an auto shut off kit installed with mine. It includes a pressure shut off valve and a float valve that can be hooked up to a container so it shuts off automatically before overflowing.

 

[Yooper]

Here is a 75 GPD unit from the place I got mine. BRS 75 GPD no DI Their customer service is awesome. I bet if you asked they could give you the length of hose you need.
.

I just ordered that unit. I don't need DI, just RO and I called them and it comes with 10' hoses already installed. Hopefully we won't have too much waste water from it!

 

[Seven]

I just ordered that unit. I don't need DI, just RO and I called them and it comes with 10' hoses already installed. Hopefully we won't have too much waste water from it!

Plus, you'll have a healthier reef and less algae outbreaks!

 

[Yooper]

Plus, you'll have a healthier reef and less algae outbreaks!

I'm sure my goldfish will love it.

But for my pond, I do have a UV filter and I haven't have an algae bloom since I got it!

 

[Clonefarmer]

I think you'll like it. I have a similar one. It was easy to hook up and works great. The waste water is a downside, but it can be used to water a garden or house plants.

 

[dragonbreath11]

For those who are interested there will be a group buy on Ro Systems and filter from http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/. Anyone is welcome to participate. Details will be forthcoming in the Group Buy section. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f174/

 

[dragonbreath11]

If anyone cares, discard that last post for now. I kindly asked Yooper, a moderator, if I could get confirmation on the group buy as far as I know it's up in the air.

 

[Yooper]

If anyone cares, discard that last post for now. I kindly asked Yooper, a moderator, if I could get confirmation on the group buy as far as I know it's up in the air.

We'll let you know ASAP!

 

[BrotherFreeman]

Just a quick heads up about RO. RO is great... I have one.. but I also sell them at work... and they use a TON of water. Most systems are about 5 or 6 to 1 for input vs output. Meaning to make 1 gallon of RO water, it goes through about 4-5 gallons of tap water. So, just be prepared to hear that residula going down the drain when its filling the tank. You cant go too much wrong with a Watts system, but other great ones out there are Cuno/Aquapure as well as Everpure. These are mostly higher end, showroom grade RO systems but they perform well. My work is not the place to buy "inexpensive (but good)" RO systems. jd3's suggestions about collecting the waste water is an excellent idea though to comabt what I said above.

 

[TomSD]

A permeate pump helps quite a bit with that. You can also reuse that water in the yard if you do a little extra plumbing. I'm still debating the best way to do it but plan to run it out so I can water with it.