Inexpensive (but good) reverse osmosis system?

[AnchorBock]

I have to run to the grocery store to fill up about 20 gallons for brewing this weekend - I should really get an RO system...

 

[kincade]

I'm trying to avoid carrying buckets. My water supply is in the basement and I brew in my garage. I have a door between the basement and the garage but I have to climb a steep set of stairs and it wasn't fun doing it with water buckets. I was hoping that pump would push the water to my garage. I don't want anything too complicated because I'm moving in a year and I want to unhook the system and take it with me.

I don't know that anyone can answer that. I would imagine that it might push the water through the appropriate tubing (i.e. icemaker tubing), but using an RV garden hose is not something I'm aware of someone trying yet. A friend has his system pushing to a 20G tank in his garage but it is on the same level. 12' or more of head changes everything.

I guess I was thinking a RO system was pressurized either by the incoming water pressure or from the bladder tank and pump. If it isn't how do you hook them up to the icemaker/drinking water in a fridge?

Incoming water is pressurized by the pressure in your city lines, the permeate pump pushes MORE water through the membrane than would normally be possible with normal water pressure. Think of it as an engine driven supercharger. It also cuts down on the waste water from anywhere from 10-20:1 to around 2-1:1. And as a result of the increased utilization of the incoming water it will generate RO water more quickly. Outgoing water is pressurized by the bladder in the tank which is usually charged from 5-10psi.

I think they are pressurized by the incoming water, but I think it would work if the source was a garden hose rather than a supply pipe in the kitchen. Might need an adapter. Not sure if it's good for them to be used on and off like that, but I can't see why it wouldn't work.

What happens to the excess water?

Personally I wouldn't use anything hokey in this setup unless you stand very little to lose in a potential flood. One leaky or cracked fitting and you could have hundreds of gallons of water pouring in your house. A garden hose would certainly qualify under the 'not in my house' modification list. I'm not aware of any garden or RV style hoses that are rated for continuous pressure day in and day out. I'd rather use PEX line for this use since it's much more appropriate and rated for this use.

Excess water is usually dumped down the drain, but since it has gone through a few stages of pre-filtration many will use it in their garden or outdoors. Just realize that dumping that water in one place for an extended amount of time can result in a concentration of minerals and salts.

Hooking mine up to my ice machine and cold water tap in the fridge/freezer were big selling points when I set mine up. That isn't an option with bottled water.

Agreed. Although one needs to make sure that their icemaker and cold water tap are RO compatible. As RO is nearly pure water it can easily leach things from existing taps, pipes, and icemakers. The largest concern is lead in brass. A faucet, fixture, or fridge should state if it is RO compatible.

 

[KuntyBrew]

I bought a dupont one from menards for like $100 easy install 30 min because i ran an additional line one for the kitchen and one for brew room

 

[TomSD]

Agreed. Although one needs to make sure that their icemaker and cold water tap are RO compatible. As RO is nearly pure water it can easily leach things from existing taps, pipes, and icemakers. The largest concern is lead in brass. A faucet, fixture, or fridge should state if it is RO compatible.

I have an artesian post filter that puts some back so am not worried but generally speaking yes you make a good point.

 

[bethebrew]

I have to run to the grocery store to fill up about 20 gallons for brewing this weekend - I should really get an RO system...

I have two RO systems in my house in addition to a whole house filter. My incoming TDS (total dissolved solids) is somewhere around 150 ppm. The RO takes the solids literally down to 1 ppm. I wouldn't use all RO water for beer but have mixed filtered 150 ppm feed with RO to get softer brew water. Half and half would yield about 75 ppm TDS.

Mostly it seems you want to remove chlorine VOCs heavy metals and that's faster and way cheaper and easier to do than with RO.

 

[Jukas]

I'm thinking more and more (after something Homercidal said) about getting a home RO water system. I know aquarium stores sell them.

I guess I need to consider the cost, the hassle, and how convenient it would be vs. buying some RO water and/or using slaked lime to drop alkalinity.

My laundry room is my brewery as well. There is very little room under the utility sink, so I guess I need to find out how much room a half-way decent RO system would take up. The waste water could go into the washing machine I assume?

Any thoughts and helpful hints (along with recommendations) would be appreciated!

I did quite a bit of shopping around when I setup my reef tank. One of the big things that bothered me was the waste:water ratio most of the consumer kit had coming in at 4gal wasted to 1gal output.

Since I get dinged on my water bill for what I draw and dinged again on the sewage side for the same volume, it made sense to me to try and find one that had a better ratio. I ended up buying a reef miser system from http://www.thefilterguys.biz who were fantastic to deal with. Not only did they have the best pricing I was finding, they were very helpful and had no problems spending a fair bit of time on the phone with me making sure the system would fit my needs. I ended up with a 150 gpd workhorse with a 1.25:1 ratio.

Most people just send the waste water down he drain. I collect it in big brute trash cans on rollers and use it to spot irrigate my roses, fruit trees and assorted landscaping.

 

[DavidR]

I use a system from airwaterice. I ordered their HD System, and specified the 75gpd membrane. I have been very happy with the unit thus far, and after a year, I am glad I switched to RO water. My beer has improved, and my filters looks horrible (heavy iron).

 

[rico567]

I've been using a few different purewaterclub.com units for years. I am an aquarium fertilizer manufacturer(www.rootmedic.com) and run a business maintaining about 3 dozen setups in businesses. Our water is like liquid rock around here and RO/Di is a must. The Purewaterclub units are priced great and their service is top notch.

I've recommended them to a dozen or so clients and they have all been happy with them as well.

Get a the largest unit you are comfortable spending money on. The amount of time it takes to fill will surprise you. Also, check what your water pressure is. The local water company can give you an idea of what it is on your block, usually. If it is low, you might need a booster pump to efficiently use an RO filter.

I collect the waste water and use it to water my yard/garden. SUPER high in minerals and salts, so it should be moved around in the yard or diluted down or you get salts left on the dirt.

The prices and service from PWC are hard to beat. Do NOT spend 3x as much for a label. They offer nothing else special.

I would be interested in specific comments from anyone concerning the waste water question. Not on how to get rid of it, but the amount generated. The vendors and manufacturers don't post a lot of information about this, and I've heard figures as high as 4 gallons waste to every gallon generated with RO systems.......which is too much for me. I'm sticking with the machine at the grocery store until I can get a handle on this issue.

 

[Jukas]

I would be interested in specific comments from anyone concerning the waste water question. Not on how to get rid of it, but the amount generated. The vendors and manufacturers don't post a lot of information about this, and I've heard figures as high as 4 gallons waste to every gallon generated with RO systems.......which is too much for me. I'm sticking with the machine at the grocery store until I can get a handle on this issue.

4:1 is about standard for most systems, meaning 4 gallons go down the drain or every 1 gallon output through the membranes. The supermarket RO machines aren't likely any more efficient if your concern is partially environmentally based. Some companies like thefilterguys.biz have a lower waste version at approx 1.25g waste to 1g output which is what I bought. They cost more, but amortized across the five years I've had the filter the extra cost has more than paid for itself on my water bill

 

[rico567]

4:1 is about standard for most systems, meaning 4 gallons go down the drain or every 1 gallon output through the membranes. The supermarket RO machines aren't likely any more efficient if your concern is partially environmentally based. Some companies like thefilterguys.biz have a lower waste version at approx 1.25g waste to 1g output which is what I bought. They cost more, but amortized across the five years I've had the filter the extra cost has more than paid for itself on my water bill

Thanks- this is the sort of information I'm looking for. We're in a rural area, on a well. Although it's a good well, and has never failed us, I'm not willing to waste 4 gallons of water to get 1 of drinkable. Not concerned globally about the environment, since I only have control over my little hacienda. This "filterguys" system looks like what I'm after......also, it appears as though high pressure systems waste less water than do the lower. No problem here....with our current well pump, we cycle 40/60, so there's always plenty of pressure.

 

[RonRock]

I have my RO system in my basement, ran a line up and into a 25 gallon holding tank in the garage. From the tank I pump into my HLT for brewing. I set this up last fall and went through winter without concern. My garage gets cold but not freezing.

So anyone know how long the RO water can set in a 25 gallon tank when the summer weather comes around? Will the water get bad from sitting in the heat if it is weeks or months between using? I also use the RO water for coffee and Ice Tea, but that don't take much out of the tank.

 

[kincade]

I have my RO system in my basement, ran a line up and into a 25 gallon holding tank in the garage. From the tank I pump into my HLT for brewing. I set this up last fall and went through winter without concern. My garage gets cold but not freezing.

So anyone know how long the RO water can set in a 25 gallon tank when the summer weather comes around? Will the water get bad from sitting in the heat if it is weeks or months between using? I also use the RO water for coffee and Ice Tea, but that don't take much out of the tank.

I'm not sure the time it sits in the tank is a concern as far as going 'bad', but it will pick up some taste. If it's over a month I personally would drain it and let it refill. I'd also make sure you are using a polishing filter post tank as these are always recommended post tank.

Heat wise, if it gets too hot it can ruin the bladder in the tank or impart more taste from the bladder to water. How hot will it get?

 

[kincade]

I would be interested in specific comments from anyone concerning the waste water question. Not on how to get rid of it, but the amount generated. The vendors and manufacturers don't post a lot of information about this, and I've heard figures as high as 4 gallons waste to every gallon generated with RO systems.......which is too much for me. I'm sticking with the machine at the grocery store until I can get a handle on this issue.

Actually, the waste water ratio can go much higher than 4:1 on some systems. That is most certainly not the upper limit.

I'd contact each company/vendor individually... The waste ratio can be determined by a litany of factors and no company will be able to state with certainty what YOUR waste ratio will be without knowing all of them (inlet water temperature, inlet water pressure, age of membrane, age of prefilters, etc). Even taking those into account it will change year round due to temp and pressure fluctuations. Be very wary of anyone who claims otherwise in order to gain your hard earned money. The permeate pump will cut down on waste in all cases with the disadvantage of costing more money up front.

Be aware that 1.25:1 sounds like an awfully optimistic waste ratio even with a permeate pump. Without a pump of some sort I'm not aware of any system that can achieve it.

 

[Jukas]

Be aware that 1.25:1 sounds like an awfully optimistic waste ratio even with a permeate pump. Without a pump of some sort I'm not aware of any system that can achieve it.

I'll comment on this as I was the one who recommended this system from filterguys and own it. I too was a bit skeptical yet even when I had really low pressure in the low 50psi range I never got worse than 2:1. My house currently runs 60psi and I'm hitting right about 1.5:1 which again I consider acceptable since they say they recommend at least 65psi or a booster pump.

So at my worse I was cutting my waste water in half from a 4:1 spec system assuming it didn't go over 4:1 atsub 65psi

To get downtown 1.25:1 you need tobe running a booster pump and hitting 90+psi

Take a look at http://www.thefilterguys.biz/test_results.htm

 

[kincade]

I'll comment on this as I was the one who recommended this system from filterguys and own it. I too was a bit skeptical yet even when I had really low pressure in the low 50psi range I never got worse than 2:1. My house currently runs 60psi and I'm hitting right about 1.5:1 which again I consider acceptable since they say they recommend at least 65psi or a booster pump.

So at my worse I was cutting my waste water in half from a 4:1 spec system assuming it didn't go over 4:1 atsub 65psi

To get downtown 1.25:1 you need tobe running a booster pump and hitting 90+psi

Take a look at http://www.thefilterguys.biz/test_results.htm

Are you running a permeate/booster pump? Dual membranes? Those are excellent waste water numbers.

One more comment: Im not a big fan of the clear housings. Although it's nice to be able to see the sediment in the canister it doesn't tell you much about the condition of the filters. And the downside is that light can contribute to the growth of algae/mold in your canisters.

 

[Jukas]

Are you running a permeate/booster pump? Dual membranes? Those are excellent waste water numbers.

One more comment: Im not a big fan of the clear housings. Although it's nice to be able to see the sediment in the canister it doesn't tell you much about the condition of the filters. And the downside is that light can contribute to the growth of algae/mold in your canisters.

I'm not running a booster pump, just going with the 62psi out of my pipes as I didn't feel like spending the extra $150for the pump. I guess I should math it out and see how long the additional .25 - .5 gal savings would take to recoup that cost.

I am running a dual membrane, the exact unit I'm running can be seen here http://www.thefilterguys.biz/water_saver_ro_di.htm thought added on a Tds meter and DI bypass and a psi gauge. I think all told it set me back $340ish, but I purchased it for making water for my saltwater reef tank so I had higher requirements than simply filtering for drinking/brewing.

 

[RonRock]

I'm not sure the time it sits in the tank is a concern as far as going 'bad', but it will pick up some taste. If it's over a month I personally would drain it and let it refill. I'd also make sure you are using a polishing filter post tank as these are always recommended post tank.

Heat wise, if it gets too hot it can ruin the bladder in the tank or impart more taste from the bladder to water. How hot will it get?

Thanks for the help. I am using a holding tank, no bladder. Not sure on how hot the water will get, but summer temps in Iowa are often in the 90's. Probably not that high in my garage. I'll have to look into a polishing filter.

 

[kincade]

I'm not running a booster pump, just going with the 62psi out of my pipes as I didn't feel like spending the extra $150for the pump. I guess I should math it out and see how long the additional .25 - .5 gal savings would take to recoup that cost.

I am running a dual membrane, the exact unit I'm running can be seen here http://www.thefilterguys.biz/water_saver_ro_di.htm thought added on a Tds meter and DI bypass and a psi gauge. I think all told it set me back $340ish, but I purchased it for making water for my saltwater reef tank so I had higher requirements than simply filtering for drinking/brewing.

Just to clarify for others who may read this, there are 2 style of pumps. The permeate pump which is powered by incoming water pressure and is not electrical is the first. The electrical aquatec is another which boosts incoming water pressure. The permeate pump is usually about $50 more, and the booster pumps are usually above $100 + electrical costs.

Sounds like a nice unit. The requirements are certainly higher and more stringent for those that keep reef tanks, as are the potential losses.

 

[johnlvs2run]

I've been using RO systems from Ebay for years and they're great.

The current price range is $135 to 150 (and up) , plus a handheld TDS meter.

I use 1 micron filters, plus a 5 micron whole house filter at the front of the house.

The post filter just adds junk back into the water, so I take it off and toss it away.

It helps a lot to get a $20 handheld TDS meter so you can test the total dissolved solids in the water anytime. My current system takes the TDS from 360 to 6, which is pretty good. The TDS is higher when water first comes out of the spigot, as there is some "creep" in the membrane and lines that needs to be flushed. I let the spigot drip for 5 minutes before saving 3-4 gallons of water at a time. Test the water in a cup with the meter to see when it's ready to save. I always run the tank completely empty every time the RO system is used, and save the water in 1/2 gallon canning jugs with plastic lids.

The membrane that came with the last RO system was terrible, so I got a much better one from an Ebay seller in Florida for $26. I used to use distilled water all the time, but having the RO system right in the house is much more convenient, easier, and less expensive.

Definitely get a permeate pump, that runs automatically with the pressure of the water. As the tank fills, it takes more and more pressure (and/or time) to fill it, and more and more water is wasted. For example if at the start there are 3 gallons wasted for every gallon saved, as the tank fills the reject water can increase to 30 gallons wasted for every gallon saved! With a permeate pump, the 1:3 ratio is always the same.

 

[Yooper]

We use ours a ton for everything from coffee, water for humidifiers, mix with formula, brewing, dogs water, and of course drinking water. I just test with TDS meter about every 6 months or so. The summers chloramine is tough on the system so I buy the Chloramine filter pack for like $25. So with an average TDS of 150-160 out of the faucet I have to replace my prefilters every 6 months or so. Here's the one I have:

http://www.airwaterice.com/product/1WATERCOP/WaterCop-5-Stage-Kitchen-RO.html

I'm seriously considering this unit. I have some dumb questions, though. Do you hook up a hose to it for wastewater? And instead of filling the tank, can I just fill my HLT? (I've never seen an RO system hooked up and can't for the life of me picture how to do this).

 

[lagavulin]

I've been using RO systems from Ebay for years and they're great.

The current price range is $135 to 150 (and up) , plus a handheld TDS meter.

I use 1 micron filters, plus a 5 micron whole house filter at the front of the house.

The post filter just adds junk back into the water, so I take it off and toss it away.

It helps a lot to get a $20 handheld TDS meter so you can test the total dissolved solids in the water anytime. My current system takes the TDS from 360 to 6, which is pretty good. The TDS is higher when water first comes out of the spigot, as there is some "creep" in the membrane and lines that needs to be flushed. I let the spigot drip for 5 minutes before saving 3-4 gallons of water at a time. Test the water in a cup with the meter to see when it's ready to save. I always run the tank completely empty every time the RO system is used, and save the water in 1/2 gallon canning jugs with plastic lids.

The membrane that came with the last RO system was terrible, so I got a much better one from an Ebay seller in Florida for $26. I used to use distilled water all the time, but having the RO system right in the house is much more convenient, easier, and less expensive.

Definitely get a permeate pump, that runs automatically with the pressure of the water. As the tank fills, it takes more and more pressure (and/or time) to fill it, and more and more water is wasted. For example if at the start there are 3 gallons wasted for every gallon saved, as the tank fills the reject water can increase to 30 gallons wasted for every gallon saved! With a permeate pump, the 1:3 ratio is always the same.

Wow, so they waste quite a bit of water, eh?

 

[passedpawn]

I'm seriously considering this unit. I have some dumb questions, though. Do you hook up a hose to it for wastewater? And instead of filling the tank, can I just fill my HLT? (I've never seen an RO system hooked up and can't for the life of me picture how to do this).

Mine is outdoors and feeds a reservoir that feeds a fish tank, but...

Mine is fed by a hose. I have a dedicated valve that turns the water on. The RO units produces just a trickle of water, but there is steady stream (think about a stream of pee) that gets wasted. My waste output is small tubing used for refrigerator icemakers. My waste goes into the grass.

I also have a DI unit.

 

[Clonefarmer]

I'm seriously considering this unit. I have some dumb questions, though. Do you hook up a hose to it for wastewater? And instead of filling the tank, can I just fill my HLT? (I've never seen an RO system hooked up and can't for the life of me picture how to do this).

Here is a pic of an RO unit hooked up

The red hose comes from the sink faucet. Water goes into the sediment filter then through the charcoal filter into the RO filter. The RO mebrane rejects waste water which comes out of the black hose. This RO unit also has a DI filter which the water passes through before coming out the blue hose.

I had this one hooked up to a reservoir with a float valve. The float valve allows the reservoir to fill to a certain level then shuts off the flow. This unit is a 75 gpd. It takes quite a while to fill a 5 gallon container, but with a float valve the water can left on while filling without the worry of overflowing the container.

 

[Jukas]

I'm seriously considering this unit. I have some dumb questions, though. Do you hook up a hose to it for wastewater? And instead of filling the tank, can I just fill my HLT? (I've never seen an RO system hooked up and can't for the life of me picture how to do this).

You could put the RO out line directly to your HLT but the fill rate is going to be less than impressive. It takes me 10-11 minutes on my 150 gpd unit at 60psi during the winter to fill 1 gallon, in the summer when the water is warmer I can get it down to about 9 minutes per gallon.

Most likely you'll want to get a holding tank, or have buckets of patience

 

[passedpawn]

When my REEF world and my BEER world collide, it's like

Can we add something about Stamp Collecting, and possibly some really nerdy analog electronics talk. My pants will explode.

 

[Yooper]

Here is a pic of an RO unit hooked up

The red hose comes from the sink faucet. Water goes into the sediment filter then through the charcoal filter into the RO filter. The RO mebrane rejects waste water which comes out of the black hose. This RO unit also has a DI filter which the water passes through before coming out the blue hose.

I had this one hooked up to a reservoir with a float valve. The float valve allows the reservoir to fill to a certain level then shuts off the flow. This unit is a 75 gpd. It takes quite a while to fill a 5 gallon container, but with a float valve the water can left on while filling without the worry of overflowing the container.

That helps SO much! Thank you. I think I will mount it right on the counter of the laundry room, assuming those hoses are long enough to reach across for the waste water to go into the washing machine. A picture really IS worth a thousand words!

 

[Yooper]

Can we add something about Stamp Collecting, and possibly some really nerdy analog electronics talk. My pants will explode.

No. Your pants exploding is NOT something we want to see.

But...............I know what you mean. My soapmaking has collided with brewing a few times and it's been like nirvana.

I can't picture how to add my other hobbies, though, as they seem like they don't go together with brewing. Hockey, for example. It's hard to brew with skates on. But it's great to drink beer with skates on. At one of the pond hockey tournaments (LaBatt's is the sponsor), you get a case of beer for each game with two cases for a win. You just skate through and pick up the cases. Even if it IS LaBatt's, it's pretty awesome. We kept winning, and got second in the tournament. We were completely loaded by the final game, though.

Anyway, due to my incompetence with math, science, heavy lifting, and inability to keep water in its containers, (please see "reducing alkalinity with slaked lime" thread if you actually care enough to wonder), Bob decided today that I should proceed with buying the RO system. If I can figure out how to hook it up and use it.

 

[passedpawn]

No. Your pants exploding is NOT something we want to see.

But...............I know what you mean. My soapmaking has collided with brewing a few times and it's been like nirvana.

I can't picture how to add my other hobbies, though, as they seem like they don't go together with brewing. Hockey, for example. It's hard to brew with skates on. But it's great to drink beer with skates on. At one of the pond hockey tournaments (LaBatt's is the sponsor), you get a case of beer for each game with two cases for a win. You just skate through and pick up the cases. Even if it IS LaBatt's, it's pretty awesome. We kept winning, and got second in the tournament. We were completely loaded by the final game, though.

Anyway, due to my incompetence with math, science, heavy lifting, and inability to keep water in its containers, (please see "reducing alkalinity with slaked lime" thread if you actually care enough to wonder), Bob decided today that I should proceed with buying the RO system. If I can figure out how to hook it up and use it.

So, I've got all this extra lye sitting here, and a bunch of crisco... I do really want to make soap. Coconut oil is so frigging expensive though...

 

[Yooper]

So, I've got all this extra lye sitting here, and a bunch of crisco... I do really want to make soap. Coconut oil is so frigging expensive though...

Lard. Seriously, good old lard. Best there is. Unless you're a vegan, and then Crisco 100% vegetable shortening from Wal-Mart is the next best thing.

I do this "gourmet" soaps, with olive oil and coconut oil and palm oil, with shea butter and goat's milk, and so on. But the first soap I made was with crisco , with 1/4 cup of pulverized oatmeal, and it was wonderful.

 

[johnlvs2run]

IDo you hook up a hose to it for wastewater?

Yes, there's a 1/4 inch hose that is connected to a drain.

And instead of filling the tank, can I just fill my HLT?

Yes, you can fill anything that you want.

I have the permeate water go to a 4 gallon tank, then when it's full and I'm ready, empty the tank to glass jars.