Increasing Sulfate Only?

[stamandster]

I'm sorry if this topic has been covered before, but, I can't seem to search and find this information anywhere.

Is there a way to increase Sulfate without increasing Calcium or Magnesium? Seems the common way to increase sulfate levels is to add either Gypsum (calcium) or Epsom (magnesium). Fortunately I can increase my Gypsum and still be within "Safe" levels and keep my pH within limits (good ole' lactic acid helps).

Basically, my water has a good ratio for a more malt focused beer; close to Chloride:Sulfate ratio of 2:1, with little help on the Chloride side. Adversely that means I need to add lots more Sulfate to override the Chloride for a reversed ratio.

 

[Yooper]

Basically, my water has a good ratio for a more malt focused beer; close to Chloride:Sulfate ratio of 2:1, with little help on the Chloride side. Adversely that means I need to add lots more Sulfate to override the Chloride for a reversed ratio.

But that doesn't make sense- you can't "erase" (or override) the chloride by adding more sulfate.

Just like you can't add more pepper to a dish to correct for too much salt, adding another substance doesn't fix too much of another.

Pretend you never heard the words "chloride:sulfate ratio". The reason is pretty simple- say you have 50 ppm of chloride and 100 of sulfate. That's 1:2. That's ok, depending on what you're making. But you may have 200:400, which will be minerally. Or 5:10, which is nothing. They are all 2:1, but really that's pretty meaningless without looking at the actual numbers.

Chloride enhances "fullness" of a beer, while sulfate enhances the perception of dryness. They don't really cancel each other out by adding more of the other.

 

[stamandster]

But that doesn't make sense- you can't "erase" (or override) the chloride by adding more sulfate.

Just like you can't add more pepper to a dish to correct for too much salt, adding another substance doesn't fix too much of another.

Pretend you never heard the words "chloride:sulfate ratio". The reason is pretty simple- say you have 50 ppm of chloride and 100 of sulfate. That's 1:2. That's ok, depending on what you're making. But you may have 200:400, which will be minerally. Or 5:10, which is nothing. They are all 2:1, but really that's pretty meaningless without looking at the actual numbers.

Chloride enhances "fullness" of a beer, while sulfate enhances the perception of dryness. They don't really cancel each other out by adding more of the other.

I didn't mean override as in cancel out. Override as in add more than. I want to add more sulfate without adding more magnesium or chloride . I want to add more sulfate only... it's ok if it can't be done. No problem. Thanks!

 

[billl]

I think the most common solution is just dilute with RO and build up from there. SO4 is always going to have something else attached to the end. The problem is that the "something else at the end" is almost never something you want in your beer in high quantities. eg lead sulfate or sulfuric acid. Calcium and magnesium are the obvious exceptions. You actually want those in your beer, so it's just a matter of balancing the quantities.

 

[stamandster]

I think the most common solution is just dilute with RO and build up from there. SO4 is always going to have something else attached to the end. The problem is that the "something else at the end" is almost never something you want in your beer in high quantities. eg lead sulfate or sulfuric acid. Calcium and magnesium are the obvious exceptions. You actually want those in your beer, so it's just a matter of balancing the quantities.

I got it worked out using more gypsum and still being within "safe" levels. Thanks!

 

[ajdelange]

The fundamental answer is that you cannot add sulfate by itself. Sulfate ions have a negative charge and you must, therefore, pair them with something that is positively charged. Calcium, magnesium and sodium are the most common choices as they are all allowable if not desirable in beer. Ammonium, in small quantities is also allowable, as is potassium so I suppose you could use limited amounts of the sulfates of those cations.

 

[stamandster]

The fundamental answer is that you cannot add sulfate by itself. Sulfate ions have a negative charge and you must, therefore, pair them with something that is positively charged. Calcium, magnesium and sodium are the most common choices as they are all allowable if not desirable in beer. Ammonium, in small quantities is also allowable, as is potassium so I suppose you could use limited amounts of the sulfates of those cations.

Gotcha! Thanks AJ

 

[z-bob]

Or hydrogen. (sulfuric acid) That will obviously lower the pH, but it won't affect the other cations.

 

[Homercidal]

One of the biggest "AHA!" moments in my brewing experience was understanding how adding minerals contributes to the pH and flavor.

Now I make sure to target a pH and a general balance of flavor salts while getting it. I worry less about a particular ratio for flavor salts, and more about total amount of a particular mineral, based on the specific style of beer I'm brewing. For example, 300 ppm of sulfate is quite a lot, but it's maybe great in a West Coast IPA. And you might not really care about a ratio of chloride with that beer either. In another beer you may want very little mineral content at all, and a closer ratio between the two.

It's fun to try different amounts and ratios. This would make an interesting club experiment.

 

[ajdelange]

Or hydrogen. (sulfuric acid) That will obviously lower the pH, but it won't affect the other cations.

And, of course, you can neutralize the lowered pH with Ca(OH)2 (net effect same as adding gyosum) or Mg(OH2) (same net effect as adding epsom salts) or Na(OH) (same net effect as adding NaSO4) but fortunate is the man who needs a bit of acid and would like some extra sulfate.

 

[Morrey]

One of the biggest "AHA!" moments in my brewing experience was understanding how adding minerals contributes to the pH and flavor.

Now I make sure to target a pH and a general balance of flavor salts while getting it. I worry less about a particular ratio for flavor salts, and more about total amount of a particular mineral, based on the specific style of beer I'm brewing. For example, 300 ppm of sulfate is quite a lot, but it's maybe great in a West Coast IPA. And you might not really care about a ratio of chloride with that beer either. In another beer you may want very little mineral content at all, and a closer ratio between the two.

It's fun to try different amounts and ratios. This would make an interesting club experiment.

Yes, sir. I had that "AHA" moment when I tried various SO4 and Cl combos while making New England IPA's. I labeled bottles of various ratios and ppm's, then had a taste comparison. AHA.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Yes, sir. I had that "AHA" moment when I tried various SO4 and Cl combos while making New England IPA's. I labeled bottles of various ratios and ppm's, then had a taste comparison. AHA.

Excellent! I'd love to hear a brief synopsis of your taste preference conclusions drawn from this test.

 

[stamandster]

That make sense all! Thanks! I'm new to getting my water adjusted according to what I'm brewing. Based on reading up on all these awesome posts my water is actually ok for more malt centric or balanced beers out of the gate. However, IPA's, etc need a bit of acid and some help on my sulfate levels (24ppm sulfate).

 

[Lefou]

Two reasons people rarely bother with Epsom for adjusting sulfate levels ...

The grain provides plenty of magnesium for yeast metabolism in wort and excess levels of Epsom added by mistake can have a laxative effect, so CaSO4 is much preferred.

 

[ajdelange]

More to the point: magnesium ion does not taste very good (sour-bitter).

 

[Homercidal]

I rarely use magnesium. I should just take it out of my toolbox and soak my feet in it (we did that when I was a kid.)

 

[ajdelange]

And then put it in the beer?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

And then put it in the beer?

Talk about a sour-bitter taste!

 

[z-bob]

And then put it in the beer?

Waste not, want not.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

No worse than drinking wine from a shoe I guess.