Brewing Water Chemistry

[Up.meinzs]

Hi All, I have some questions:

In his book: “How to Brew”, by John Palmer, he introduces the concept of the beer cube. On how the Sulfate to Chloride ratio affects beer flavor, how residual alkalinity affects beer color, and how calcium affects beer structure.

He uses three terms of soft, medium, and firm for “beer structure.”

What does he mean by beer structure? Mouth feel?

And what are the examples of beer that would be soft, medium, and firm?

I have never heard of the term beer structure!!

I know that I can just play with Beer Smith to get a water style and an output for the type of beer style I need and it will give me recommended concentrations of salts to add.

But I have a inquisitive mind where I like to have a "feel" of what goes on before I trust software. Old school, but I need to know if I change 1 thing how it affects the big picture.

In his "How to Brew" book, he further states that there are 3 tools for adjusting water to suit the style of beer: "The first is adjusting PH via RA. The second is adjusting the levels of sulfate an chloride. The third is adjusting the total dissolved solids, but this should only be addressed after adjusting the calcium ion concentration and RA." Is he talking about Total Dissolved Solids for Beer Structure?

In one of Brad Smith's (Beer Smith) podcasts with John Palmer as a guest, Podcast No. 237, John states that only 2 beers qualify for the "Firm" beer structure: "Dortmunder Export" and "Burton Pale Ale"; the rest are either Soft or Medium. He states that 50 ppm of Ca gives a soft water profile or Beer Profile; 100 ppm for a Medium amount of mineral structure. So according to that podcast it must be the water profile in terms of "Hardness" of "Softness" as "Soft", "Medium" and "Firm". I have never heard or read of this description before anywhere. It does not make sense but I need to read it again and listen to the pod cast again and again. Apparently he thinks it is important!!

Don't mean to get in the weeds, but I'm just trying to get a basic understanding of brewing water chemistry and the effects of salt additions an pH.

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[jambop]

Hi I don't know much about the man but I do know these people www.murphyandson.co.uk/ have been supplying the brewing industry for more then a hundred years their knowledge of water treatment greatly surpasses anything he knows. Have a look at their site it is rammed with info about all different facets of brewing. The info is intended to educate all types of brewer from small craft brewers to large brewing companies . I have given a link to the company main page and one to a very useful water treatment info sheet called the little book of liquor .
www.murphyandson.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Little-book-of-Liquor_135x155mm_WEB-1.pdf

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Welcome to HomeBrewTalk @Up.meinzs !

Don't mean to get in the weeds, but I'm just trying to get a basic understanding of brewing water chemistry and the effects of salt additions an pH.

Any advice would be appreciated.

As you are starting to see, there are a number of approaches to water adjustments when brewing.

Are you currently making water adjustments with your all-grain batches? What do you know about the mineral conents (and consistency) of your source water?

But I have a inquisitive mind where I like to have a "feel" of what goes on before I trust software. Old school, but I need to know if I change 1 thing how it affects the big picture.

There are also approaches to water that don't require software (or a 30+ page PDF) to determine what adjustments to make. If you are interested, I can provide links. If you want to stay focused on the content in How To Brew, that's OK as well.

 

[Up.meinzs]

Welcome to HomeBrewTalk @Up.meinzs !


As you are starting to see, there are a number of approaches to water adjustments when brewing.

Are you currently making water adjustments with your all-grain batches? What do you know about the mineral conents (and consistency) of your source water?


There are also approaches to water that don't require software (or a 30+ page PDF) to determine what adjustments to make. If you are interested, I can provide links. If you want to stay focused on the content in How To Brew, that's OK as well.

Thank you for the reply and advice. I am always willing to learn as much as I can and am open to learning new information and techniques. The more sources of information can only help.

I would greatly appreciate any additional information that you recommend! Thanks again

 

[DBhomebrew]

I believe @Up.meinzs is asking more about what Palmer means by his descriptive terms than how to go about making the water adjustments themselves.

@BrewnWKopperKat, care to point them to your simple tasting process for adding salt to a finished beer in the glass? That might be a great way for OP to experience (or not!) Palmer's soft, medium, firm.

@Up.meinzs. Soft, firm, drying, full. Those are all on the subjective end of water chemistry effects. Taste, mouthfeel, rather fine tune stuff. There are many other variables you will need to figure out that will make much larger affects to your beer.

For now, you can concentrate on being sure mash pH is in an appropriate range for enzymatic activity and there's enough calcium for yeast health.

Checking out what's in the the weeds is a good thing, don't get stuck in them.

 

[tracer bullet]

Sulfate to Chloride ratio

I'll toss in that it's not the ratio but the amounts. You could have a 1:1 ratio with barely either of these, or the same 1:1 with tons of these, and have very different beers even though the ratio stayed the same.

 

[Up.meinzs]

Hi I don't know much about the man but I do know these people www.murphyandson.co.uk/ have been supplying the brewing industry for more then a hundred years their knowledge of water treatment greatly surpasses anything he knows. Have a look at their site it is rammed with info about all different facets of brewing. The info is intended to educate all types of brewer from small craft brewers to large brewing companies . I have given a link to the company main page and one to a very useful water treatment info sheet called the little book of liquor .
www.murphyandson.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Little-book-of-Liquor_135x155mm_WEB-1.pdf

Thank you for the advice!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

standard disclaimer: nothing wrong with cross posting a question

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=39777.0
especially when the cross-posted topic goes in different directions.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

If you are interested, I can provide links.

I am always willing to learn as much as I can and am open to learning new information and techniques. The more sources of information can only help.

In the case of water adjustments, my experience was that focusing on a single source (at a time) and brewing with that single source was most helpful. That being said ...

... two free resources

• Water Chemistry - How to Build ... is the short ("cliff notes") summary of the water primer here at HomeBrewTalk.
• Beginners Guide to Water Treatment (UK) takes a similar approach, but includes ideas / resources beyond "get a XYZZY Labs water report".

To help focus your reading, you may want to consider this set of questions:

• source water quality: what adjustments are needed for quality source water?
• mash: what adjustments are needed for a proper mash?
• boil: what adjustments are needed or desirable for 'best' flavor?
• fermentation: what adjustments are needed to ensure healthy yeast?

@DBhomebrew gives you a good starting point ....

For now, you can concentrate on being sure mash pH is in an appropriate range for enzymatic activity and there's enough calcium for yeast health.

---

@BrewnWKopperKat, care to point them to your simple tasting process for adding salt to a finished beer in the glass? That might be a great way for OP to experience (or not!) Palmer's soft, medium, firm.

From what I understand, 'soft'/'medium'/'firm' is about calcium - which is related to the mash. Processes that adjust minerals in the glass focus on sulfate, chloride, and sodium.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

@Up.meinzs : can you help us help you by answering these question?

Are you currently making water adjustments with your all-grain batches? What do you know about the mineral conents (and consistency) of your source water?

 

[DBhomebrew]

Well, yes, calcium is related to the mash. But, it's also a pretty good indication of overall mineral levels since nearly all of our additions are calcium salts. Ca levels correlate directly to sulphate and chloride levels. A proxy for TDS, if you will. A beer built with 150ppm Ca will feel different on the tongue than one brewed with 50ppm. Burton vs pils. That's not necessarily mash related.

Some conversation and in the comments here. A link supposedly to Palmer talking about structure. Haven't clicked it yet, but will do as I put the little monster down to nap.

https://homebrew.stackexchange.com/...is-beer-structure-as-described-by-john-palmer

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

A link supposedly to Palmer talking about structure.

• Beer Brewing Water with John Palmer – BeerSmith Podcast #237

 

[DBhomebrew]

Listened to the podcast. I'm still under the impression that Palmer is not talking about mash reactions when he refers to structure.

"Food & cooking"

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Listened to the podcast. I'm still under the impression that Palmer is not talking about mash reactions when he refers to structure.

"Food & cooking"

Thanks for listening to it. I'll probably add it my podcast back log (and listen to it in a couple of days) - he's a good guest on any podcast.