Immersion Heater Control

[Pangea]

So I'm thinking about building an electric kettle with immersion heater elements, basically hot water heater elements. What would be the most cost effective way to hook them up, with some level of control more than just on/off?

What would be the best way to control? Does temperature matter at all? I'm looking for something very simple (cheap). Right now I manually adjust a valve on a propane regulator to adjust how my kettle boils. Is there something simple like a voltage regulator or something that could be used to get more or less heat as needed to the kettle? This wouldn't require temp controller, but an eye on the boil. And if a temp controller was used instead, what temp would you ask it to control too? Just above boiling or much higher?

Thanks in advance.

Pangea

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

So I'm thinking about building an electric kettle with immersion heater elements, basically hot water heater elements. What would be the most cost effective way to hook them up, with some level of control more than just on/off?

What would be the best way to control? Does temperature matter at all? I'm looking for something very simple (cheap). Right now I manually adjust a valve on a propane regulator to adjust how my kettle boils. Is there something simple like a voltage regulator or something that could be used to get more or less heat as needed to the kettle? This wouldn't require temp controller, but an eye on the boil. And if a temp controller was used instead, what temp would you ask it to control too? Just above boiling or much higher?

Thanks in advance.

Pangea

I think what you are describing there is an on/off switch.

 

[Pangea]

I think what you are describing there is an on/off switch.

Yeah, but I dont want to have to stand there all the time switching it on and off. I'd like to be able to find the ideal output for the right boil-off rate I want, then just leave it there for future boils.

 

[Pangea]

Actually, I just read on the instruction manual for my Johnson A419 temp controller that it can also be wired for 240v use. If I use a 4000w heater, that would be (4000/240) 17 amps or so. Anyone think this is a bad idea through the Johnson? I couldn't find anything in their literature about amp load. If it works, it would be perfect to control a HLT to a setpoint.

 

[kevin9167]

What would be the most cost effective way to hook them up, with some level of control more than just on/off?

Simplest and most cost effective is a on/off switch.

What would be the best way to control?

Probably a PID and some SSRs.

Does temperature matter at all?

Not really, boiling is boiling. Not worried about temp, but the intensity of the boil...

I'm looking for something very simple (cheap). Right now I manually adjust a valve on a propane regulator to adjust how my kettle boils. Is there something simple like a voltage regulator or something that could be used to get more or less heat as needed to the kettle?

No, not for the amperage you'll need.


Regarding using your Johnson, I don't think it will work the way you're expecting. It's all on or all off. If you want more than all on, or all off, I would read about a PID and SSR setup. This setup is more complicated and more $ than 2 on/off switches. There are several examples in the DIY section.

 

[Pangea]

Regarding using your Johnson, I don't think it will work the way you're expecting. It's all on or all off. If you want more than all on, or all off, I would read about a PID and SSR setup. This setup is more complicated and more $ than 2 on/off switches. There are several examples in the DIY section.

Thanks for the response.

Maybe I wasn't very clear, I was talking about using the Johnson for a HLT, which could have an offset on when it turns on or off around a setpoint. If, for example, I want to control to 180, I could ask for the heater to turn off at 181, but not to turn back on until 177, for example. That should be good enough, I'd think, to control the HLT - Assuming it can handle the load, which is what I'm most concerned about.

For a large boil kettle, I like the idea of the on/off switches, but was curious if there was something better, to maybe regulate control without going all the way with either 240v thermostat or a PID/SSR controls.

 

[kevin9167]

Oh - Yea, the Johnson will work just fine for a HLT. The Pol's setup (among others) has proven that.

If you want another DIY option, check this out:
New Page 1
Personally, I would go the PID route so I wouldn't have to source the parts and I'm guessing prices have come down since that was written.

Also, how large is "large boil kettle"?

 

[Pangea]

Oh - Yea, the Johnson will work just fine for a HLT. The Pol's setup (among others) has proven that.

If you want another DIY option, check this out:
New Page 1
Personally, I would go the PID route so I wouldn't have to source the parts and I'm guessing prices have come down since that was written.

Also, how large is "large boil kettle"?

"large" = 55 gal stainless drum. I'm going to try up to 1 BBL batches.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

I have a 220V VFD that runs my 3 phase pond pump. What happens if I hook up a 220V heating element to it? Do I get heat adjustment control, or do I just win a nice shiny Darwin Award?

 

[KopyKat]

A simple water heater lower element thermostat will work. See my post

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/ahhhh-success-how-sweet-132698/

 

[Pangea]

Holy Crap! Just the extension cord for a 50 Amp circuit is gonna cost $250!!! I better rethink this... I was planning to install a 50 or 60A breaker in the main panel, run to a wall outlet rated for 50 or 60A, then run an extension cord to the brew system when needed to a junction box, where the load gets split to 3 on/off switches and their respective heater elements, each at around 15 amps draw. I was going to put the Johnson controller on the HLT power. Seemed very simple until I looked at Mcmaster Carr and prices for just power cables, plugs, and receptacles!!!!!

Is there a better way? I'm no electrician here.

 

[kevin9167]

Were you planning to hire an electrician to do the install? If so, ask them what your options are. If you're going to DIY this, take your time, because it appears you have plenty to learn about.

When you get into the heavy wiring, it gets expensive. Minimize the distance between your outlet and the brew rig. A lot of people use a dryer or appliance cord. I don't know what kind of power they are rated for, but a quick trip to the hardware store will tell you that.

Also - a 50-60 amp GFI breaker will run you $100+

 

[cyberbackpacker]

Check out the thread below, and then if you have more questions pm tdiowa. He has a detailed write-up for an inexpensive electric setup using a simmerstat (which is basically an infinite switch like found on stoves):

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/electric-kettle-instructions-100737/


...

 

[Sizz]

Holy Crap! Just the extension cord for a 50 Amp circuit is gonna cost $250!!! I better rethink this... I was planning to install a 50 or 60A breaker in the main panel, run to a wall outlet rated for 50 or 60A, then run an extension cord to the brew system when needed to a junction box, where the load gets split to 3 on/off switches and their respective heater elements, each at around 15 amps draw. I was going to put the Johnson controller on the HLT power. Seemed very simple until I looked at Mcmaster Carr and prices for just power cables, plugs, and receptacles!!!!!

Is there a better way? I'm no electrician here.

How long of an extension cord are you planing on? You can get a standard 6' NEMA 50R range cable at lowes for like $18. NEMA 50R external receptical was under $20 also. Got the 3-wire+ground cable for running in walls locally for ~$2 per foot, at Lowes I think. Also, search ebay for a 50A spa GFCI breaker. I got one opened but unused on ebay for $40.

 

[Pangea]

How long of an extension cord are you planing on? You can get a standard 6' NEMA 50R range cable at lowes for like $18. NEMA 50R external receptical was under $20 also. Got the 3-wire+ground cable for running in walls locally for ~$2 per foot, at Lowes I think. Also, search ebay for a 50A spa GFCI breaker. I got one opened but unused on ebay for $40.

Yeah, I see the 6' standard size cables, but I initially planned on something longer, as long as 25'. May need to keep everything close to the wall outlet and breaker panel, which isn't a big deal, its all in the garage which is already full of my current brewing equipment.

A groomsman in my wedding is an electrical engineer and builds panels and designs power systems for use on off-shore oil rigs for a living. He will be helping me with this project.

 

[JKoravos]

Check out the thread below, and then if you have more questions pm tdiowa. He has a detailed write-up for an inexpensive electric setup using a simmerstat (which is basically an infinite switch like found on stoves):

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/electric-kettle-instructions-100737/


...

I like the idea of setting the boil element via simmerstat. I hadn't thought of that, but it seems so obvious. A control mechanism for 220V heating elements available in millions of households across the US.