I'm losing my mind over this

[Hopper5000]

Subscribed. I am fighting something similar. My latest attempt was pasteurizing the beer after bottling (boiled priming sugar was added during bottling) and after cooldown i added yeast to the pasteurized bottles. In one week i will find out if it helps or not.
(btw in my case i get an astringent, earthy bitterness aftertaste in every brew)

Could be a wild yeast problem as that earthy not can be a result of that

 

[LovesIPA]

Man, this was so painful to read. It really sucks that this is happening to you and I am sorry to hear/read it. I am going to try to give some advice here that hasn't been covered, however, metallic taste can be a tricky thing to figure out where it's coming from.

I wouldn't really describe it as a metallic taste. That's what SWMBO called it but I think it's more of a sour flavor, and not in a good way at all.

Before I read that beer coming out of your fermenters was tasting bad I was going to suggest replacing everything that was plastic or rubber in your kegs because I wasn't seeing people recommending that. This being the poppets, o-rings, and maybe even the purge valve on the top (I know that's $$ so maybe even just getting new kegs would be worth it).

Every rubber part on every keg has been replaced at least once.

If things are getting infected in your fermenters now, then it's something in your process. I know this may be very basic but are you using a plastic bucket with the marks on the side to measure out your starsan? Sometimes these can be very off in volume measurements so you might not be diluting correctly.

Since I buy RO water in 5 gallon containers, I dump a full one into a homer bucket and add 30ml of star-san according to the package directions. If it's off, it's not off by much.

Have you tried disassembling all the ball valves on your kettle and cleaning out the threads? That can potentially harbor some stuff in there so I would try doing that.

I haven't done that. I don't have a 3-piece ball valve on the kettle I've been using for these batches. I have one on my new keggle, but I am having a hard time justifying its use right now because it just seems likely I'm going to make twice as much swill.

Wouldn't the heat from the boil kill anything living in the valve or threads?

Do you use a pump post boil? There can for sure be stuff hiding in there.

I don't, although I was planning on using one to whirlpool once I started using the keggle. I was going to start using it 15 minutes prior to flameout to sanitize it.

I think it's good that you tossed all your plastic fermenters. I would try using a glass carboy and see if there is a problem there.

I have one glass carboy that I currently have a batch of Apfelwein aging in. I was thinking it's probably time to keg that.

You might also want to try switching to silicon tubing for anything that touches the beer post boil and maybe a metal racking cain. I have started using silicone tubing as it can be boiled for about 10 or 15min which would eliminate anything hanging out in there. It is expensive but it might do the trick.

I am sorry you are so frustrated, I would be too.

Next time I'm at the LHBS I'll have to pick up some. I have a couple feet for the pump, but not the autosiphon.

 

[grathan]

Just some thoughts.

Deal with the infection first:

1.) Is it really an infection? IS stuff growing on top of the beer? Is it completely sour like vinegar?




Deal with the metallic taste:

1.)Your Swmbo is the only one who has tasted your beer? Why not share it with knowledgeable persons?

2.) why not eliminate water as the cause? ditch the Glacier machine for a single batch and use distilled water. Distilled water has 0 minerals in it. Get some lactic acid %88 at your LHBS. you already have gypsum. for a 5 gallon batch. 3 tsp gypsum to strike water + 3ml acid (eliminate tannins as your off-flavor). 3ml acid to sparge water. 3 additional tsp gypsum to boil.



Your comments here are odd:

Originally Posted by rayfound View Post
Basically, in the simplest of terms, add 1 tsp CaCl to each 5 gallons of water treated.
I have a decent understanding of water chemistry too, and I'm not going to just blindly dump arbitrary amounts of minerals into the water without any regard to what kind of beer it is. That approach is not going to make good beer, in my opinion. Also, you're telling that I'm using too many mineral additions, and then you tell me I should use roughly 10-20 times as much as I'm using now.

if your using 1/20th of a tsp of calcium cholride in your batches you do not have a decent understanding of water chemistry.





If your willing, I will give you an IPA recipe to brew, your brew it exact. I will pay you to ship some to me. I will tell you what I think or even mail you some of my own.

 

[LovesIPA]

Just some thoughts.

Deal with the infection first:

1.) Is it really an infection? IS stuff growing on top of the beer? Is it completely sour like vinegar?

In some cases, yes. I have seen white pellicle forming on top of batches. I was storing and weighing grains in the same room as I was pitching the dry hops. I think that when I walked in with the dry hops, I would stir up dust and hair on the floor (I have a cat as well) which was covered with lacto bacteria from the grain dust. Beer no longer comes into the room where I store and weigh unless it's cold and carbonated.

Deal with the metallic taste:

1.)Your Swmbo is the only one who has tasted your beer? Why not share it with knowledgeable persons?

I have. They've either said "tastes fine" or "tastes infected". Granted I haven't had many experienced people come over. The best I could do was a guy in my girlfriend's grandson's little league that is a very advanced homebrewer and has been brewing for 10 years. I tried a tangerine sour that he made and it rivaled something you would taste from Russian River. I'm 90% sure he knows what he's talking about.

2.) why not eliminate water as the cause? ditch the Glacier machine for a single batch and use distilled water. Distilled water has 0 minerals in it. Get some lactic acid %88 at your LHBS. you already have gypsum. for a 5 gallon batch. 3 tsp gypsum to strike water + 3ml acid (eliminate tannins as your off-flavor). 3ml acid to sparge water. 3 additional tsp gypsum to boil.

I have some lactic acid. I could try this.

if your using 1/20th of a tsp of calcium cholride in your batches you do not have a decent understanding of water chemistry.

In the thread I started on my water profile, most people were saying that it looked reasonable to them. One person suggested the sulfate:chloride ratio was too high but then I'm not sure what you would do with hoppy beers that I thought were supposed to have a high sulfate level.

If your willing, I will give you an IPA recipe to brew, your brew it exact. I will pay you to ship some to me. I will tell you what I think or even mail you some of my own.

I'll try anything. I will brew it exactly according to your instruction, just send the recipe my way. I have a pretty good inventory of hops and grain here. I would buy fresh yeast from the LHBS of course.

 

[grathan]

Sorry, that post should've have read 0.3ml lactic acid and not 3ml on the 2 additions.



Here is the last IPA i brewed and I plan on brewing it again within a couple weeks. If you brew this as I do, it will be easy to compare. If you let me know your brew date, I will even try to align mine.


Recipe: Centennial ipa

Batch: 6.00 gal


---RECIPE SPECIFICATIONS-----------------------------------------------
Boil: 7.05 gal
BT: 60 Mins


IBU: 85.8
OG: 1.066 SG
FG: 1.014 SG
Est ABV: 6.8 %
Total Grain Weight: 14 lbs 15.4 oz Total Hops: 7.50 oz oz.



---MASH/STEEP PROCESS------MASH PH:5.40 ------


11 lbs 3.2 oz Brewers Malt 2-Row (Briess)
1 lbs 8.0 oz Victory Malt (biscuit) (Briess)
1 lbs 4.0 oz Munich II (Best Malz) (10.0 SRM)
8.5 oz Caramel Malt - 20L (Briess) 3.6 %
4.3 oz Special Roast (Briess) (50.0 SRM)
3.4 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L



Mash In 152.0 F 75 min 1.25 qt/lb
sparge

1.00 oz Centennial [9.00 %] - First Wort Hop
0.50 oz Centennial [9.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min
1.00 oz Centennial [9.00 %] - Boil 30.0 min
1.00 oz Centennial [9.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min
1.00 oz Centennial [9.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min




I think I got %83 mash efficiency last time to hit 1.066 OG.


The important things to remember here:

The distilled water. Who knows what is in Glacier water..
0.3ml acid to the strike water. add this and stir before mixing with grains. I use a syringe that comes with baby medicine to measure 0.3ml
2-3 tsp gypsum to strike water as well.



add 0.3ml lactic acid to your sparge water and mix before sparge.

add FWH to kettle while draining mash into kettle.
add 2-3 tsp gypsum to kettle.


Boil a good solid hour. Don't start the timer until it's going as good as it gets.

cool with a cover over the fermenter (tin foil will work if you have no lid). Let settle at least 15 minutes after cool before transfer to drop out cold break.

Rinse fermenter with star san mix just before filling and drain. You don't have to fill with 5 gallons, just enough to swish around and coat all surface and then drain.

How do you transfer cool wort to fermenter? This a VERY crucial step as far as infections go. I use a pump that boiling wort goes through to sanitize. If your using an auto-siphon make sure it has just soaked in star san. Run some through it just to be sure it is all covered.

No need to oxygenate because were using dry yeast.

ferment at about 66-67*F


add the dry hops as soon as krausen starts to fall. this should be day 2 or 3. Do not carry hops in on a open plate in your grain grinding room. You should be very careful when adding hops. If you pour from a bag of hops that works well, measurement is not precise. Most important thing is to not add airborne germs. In fact, wash your hands and remove jacket when adding dry hops.

let sit in the fermenter at least 10-14 days before rack.

Do not cold crash. It will cold crash in the keg/bottle.

 

[LovesIPA]

I was actually going to brew it today. However, I only have about 2 oz of Centennial left. I'm going to have to use another hop for the recipe.

I get about 90%-92% mash efficiency so I'm going to have to knock the grain bill down some to match the OG. I don't have any special roast. I have cara-aroma and Special B.

For kettle to fermenter transfer I have a stainless 1/2" NPT to hose barb plus a couple feet of silicone tubing. I did not know that aeration/oxygenation is not necessary with dry yeast. I will boil it for 15 mins to sanitize it.

I no longer dry hop or store beer where the grain is stored, weighed, or milled so that won't be an issue. The fermenters are stored in the kitchen/dining room area for now which is all hardwood. Heck I even sweep the floors and let the room settle before I open the fermenter.

Off to the store to buy distilled water, and off to the LHBS to buy dry yeast and a new fermenter.

Thank you for the help.

 

[LovesIPA]

Brewer's Friend yeast calculator says I need 23 grams of dry yeast (2 packages) to ferment 5.2 gallons of 1.066 wort. Do you want me to use one or two?

New grain bill:

8 lbs 1.2 oz 2-row
1 lb 1.3 oz Biscuit malt
14.4 oz Munich malt
6.1 oz Crystal 20
3.1 oz Special B
2.5 oz Crystal 40

This will give me 5.4 gallons of 1.066 wort in the kettle post-boil. I normally leave behind a little bit of wort and all the hop debris in the kettle but not much else so about 5.2 into the fermenter and a little less than that gives me enough to fill a keg with not much left over.

 

[unionrdr]

Yeast need o2 during the lag phase when they are multiplying to sufficient numbers to start visible fermentation. I always aerate regardless of the type of yeast used. Pouring the chilled wort through my fine mesh strainer & vigorously stiring in the top off water aerates enough for the average gravity beer,ime. I feel it's a good practice to get into dry yeast or liquid,since I rehydrate or use starters anyway.

 

[LovesIPA]

Mashing in now. Hit 152 right on the nose after adding some boiling water. BeerSmith just can't seem to get a handle on hitting my mash temp consistently.

Going to sub Mosaic for the hop as I have high hopes for this batch and loved the mosaic IPA that a brewery around here distributes (if you use that term lightly). BeerSmith projects my IBUs at 105. I don't mind a bitter IPA at all.

As for the cold crash, I do it to with dry-hopped beers to settle the hop debris more into the trub. The last time I dry-hopped with loose pellets the siphon picked up so much hop debris it would clog my poppet every time I managed to get about an ounce of beer out. It was a disaster.

I bought 10 gallons of distilled water and following the mineral dosage exactly, but that is SO much more gypsum that I have ever used in a batch. I haven't measured a teaspoon of gypsum yet, but I would estimate it's about 4-6 times as much. Maybe more.

 

[grathan]

1 package is fine, Safale US-05. Don't oxygenate. You really should stick with centennial imho. Hops add a ton of flavor and sometimes it isn't a good thing. You also should be careful of old hops. If you put oxygenated hops in your beer it could ruin it. The best thing to do is to open a fresh package of hops each time your brew a batch ( I'm assuming you have 2oz left from a 1# package that wasn't vacuum sealed ). If you do use old hops, use them earlier in the boil than the fresher hops.

Also don't open the ferementer for gravity readings. once for dry hop and once for rack. remember to dry hop while air-lock is still bubbling.


Lemmie know what hops you end up using and I will brew a similar batch for comparison.

 

[ja09]

Mashing in now. Hit 152 right on the nose after adding some boiling water. BeerSmith just can't seem to get a handle on hitting my mash temp consistently.

Have you ever taken any PH readings during your mash? This ^^ right here could be the source of all your problems if you're regularly mashing or sparging with too much water... and possibly amplified by water profile issues. What's your ratio after the additional water today?

Does this sound familiar to your situation & off flavors? https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=15241.0

 

[grathan]

Gypsum is good. The calcium is good for the mash, but even more important it helps clarify the beer. If the cold break does not drop out it creates a bitter taste, perhaps could even be considered metallic with some yeasts. Calcium in the boil helps coagulate the protein not broken down by the boil.

If you cold crash you don't want any headspace. it can lead to oxidation. If you have a 5 gallon carboy you could transfer to that before cold crashing to minimize headspace. If not, you can shorten the cold crash period to a day or two at most. If you dry hop at day 3 and don't rack until day 10-14, then you shouldn't have any hop particles floating still.

 

[LovesIPA]

1 package is fine, Safale US-05. Don't oxygenate. You really should stick with centennial imho. Hops add a ton of flavor and sometimes it isn't a good thing. You also should be careful of old hops. If you put oxygenated hops in your beer it could ruin it. The best thing to do is to open a fresh package of hops each time your brew a batch ( I'm assuming you have 2oz left from a 1# package that wasn't vacuum sealed ). If you do use old hops, use them earlier in the boil than the fresher hops.

Also don't open the ferementer for gravity readings. once for dry hop and once for rack. remember to dry hop while air-lock is still bubbling.

Lemmie know what hops you end up using and I will brew a similar batch for comparison.

I'm trying to buy as little as possible. My girlfriend lost her job and while she's looking I'm don't want to end up in a hole. I'm going to have to go with what I have and I have a 1-lb bag of Mosaic in the freezer that I bought a few weeks ago and it hasn't been opened yet.

Have you ever taken any PH readings during your mash? This ^^ right here could be the source of all your problems if you're regularly mashing or sparging with too much water... and possibly amplified by water profile issues. What's your ratio after the additional water today?

I have some of the cheap test strips that read from 4.8 to 6.0 or so. They're designed for brewers. The few times I used one they read that my mash pH was in the 5.2 to 5.4 range.

Does this sound familiar to your situation & off flavors? https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=15241.0

Not really. I've checked the gravity of last runnings and they are always well above 1.010. Sometimes I will run off some of the mash, heat it up, and return it to the mash tun to tweak temperature. Sometimes I've mashed at 1.5 qts/lb. It doesn't make a difference.

 

[LovesIPA]

3 tsp of gypsum is exactly 10g. I put 20g in so far, I usually use between 4g and 5g, so that makes this is a 4x-5x increase.

 

[grathan]

Not knowing what mineral content is in the Glacier water you can't compare to distilled water.

But if you look at this chart:
www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-4.html

You'll see a tsp of gypsum per gallon is only 60ppm calcium. If you read this book it will suggest the minimum should be 50ppm. So if distilled water is 0ppm and you use 10 gallons and 4 tsp. that is still pretty low.

 

[Conman13]

Are you purging all the O2 out of your keg before force carbing?

You could also try racking it to a keg and leaving it off the gas at storing room temperatures. Taste a sample out of there after a few days.

 

[LovesIPA]

Not knowing what mineral content is in the Glacier water you can't compare to distilled water.

It's filtered, reverse osmosis water. I don't have any reason to believe it doesn't produce any less pure water than any other regularly serviced and maintained reverse osmosis water filter.

But if you look at this chart:
www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-4.html

You'll see a tsp of gypsum per gallon is only 60ppm calcium. If you read this book it will suggest the minimum should be 50ppm. So if distilled water is 0ppm and you use 10 gallons and 4 tsp. that is still pretty low.

If I open up Bru 'n' water and create a water profile and add 3.3 g/gallon (5 gallon batch, 1 tsp = 3.3 g), it tells me I will end up with 252 ppm Ca and 528 ppm SO4.

Can anyone explain the discrepancy?

 

[LovesIPA]

Are you purging all the O2 out of your keg before force carbing?

Yes I am.

You could also try racking it to a keg and leaving it off the gas at storing room temperatures. Taste a sample out of there after a few days.

At this point, batches are not tasting good out of the fermenter, either.

 

[LovesIPA]

I ended up with 7.4 gallons of 1.051 wort. That means I got 93.9% efficiency, which is a few points higher than I usually get. BeerSmith predicted the pre-boil gravity to be 1.048.

I collected another 3/4 gallon or so of wort from the mash tun after I stopped filling the kettle. The gravity of that is 1.014 so I don't think I have to worry about tannin extraction with this batch.

 

[LovesIPA]

Hit OG perfectly. Ended up with 5.6 gallons in the kettle at 1.066. I used a new burner today (SQ-14) but switched the pressure hose and regulator with the 10psi one that came with my Bayou Classic. For some reason mine only came with a 5 psi regulator which was noticeably slower while heating up sparge and strike water. I haven't gotten used to how much it boils off yet, so I was a little high on volume but with the slightly higher boil gravity it worked out perfectly mostly due to dumb luck.

Waiting for the cold break to settle for 10 more minutes

 

[LovesIPA]

Done. Pitched re-hydrated yeast at 64 degrees.It should settle around 65-66 and ferment there. I will check on it in 48 hours and every few hours after that to see when the krausen falls so I can dry hop it.

 

[grathan]

It's filtered, reverse osmosis water. I don't have any reason to believe it doesn't produce any less pure water than any other regularly serviced and maintained reverse osmosis water filter.

your probably right. If the membrane was properly serviced then it should be fairly similar.

A TDS meter is a good way to tell if the membrane is getting bad. They are fairly cheap too. Though I don't think RO is highly effective at removing chlorine/chloramine which is likely in the water the machine is hooked to at the store.

If I open up Bru 'n' water and create a water profile and add 3.3 g/gallon (5 gallon batch, 1 tsp = 3.3 g), it tells me I will end up with 252 ppm Ca and 528 ppm SO4.



Can anyone explain the discrepancy?

I would trust Bru'n water over Palmer's book. That is quite a difference though!



You rehydrated the yeast? That can be a possible source of infection too. I typically don't rehydrate cause it's a pain to make sure it's clean. Your gonna wanna minimize possible sources of infection until you get that under control.

 

[LovesIPA]

I boiled water for about 15 minutes, then let it cool to 90 or so with the lid on, pitched the yeast, put the lid back on, waited for 20 minutes, chilled it to 65, then poured it into the fermenter. I was very careful about not taking the lid off for more than necessary.

 

[thisisbeer]

If you bleached your carboys for hours then the flavors from the plastic are leaching into the beer.

 

[Hopper5000]

Wouldn't the heat from the boil kill anything living in the valve or threads?

Yes probably, but I was just trying to trouble shoot. It's recommended to clean them out every few brews. I have hears of people not realizing they were supposed to and there being some pretty nasty stuff in there.

 

[unionrdr]

If you bleached your carboys for hours then the flavors from the plastic are leaching into the beer.

If food safe plastic is used,that's not an issue. They don't have the chemicals in them or parting compounds on them that're toxic.

 

[LovesIPA]

I brewed another batch yesterday. An all-amarillo ale with Maris Otter, munich, crystal 40, and 4oz of roasted barley for a nice red color. I'm going to call it Amarillo Red.

I used Crystal Geyser spring water, which I used for a batch over a year ago and it came out fine. I made no other changes from my standard process.

It smells great with two fermenters bubbling.

 

[jbaysurfer]

How many batches have you brewed in the 4 months since you started this thread? If I had a problem so persistent that 4 months of the collective brewing wisdom of this community couldn't solve it, I'd probably pick a new hobby. Thus, I commend you stubborn determination even if I'm baffled....because brewing really isn't that hard.

 

[LovesIPA]

I know it's not that hard. That's why I'm so frustrated. I haven't been brewing as much lately. If I don't get a drinkable batch pretty soon I will need a new hobby for sure. Woodworking sounds like fun....

 

[tektonjp]

I know it's not that hard. That's why I'm so frustrated. I haven't been brewing as much lately. If I don't get a drinkable batch pretty soon I will need a new hobby for sure. Woodworking sounds like fun....

Woodworking is a fun hobby indeed, but it's easier to keep all your fingers as a homebrewer!