Water, or technique?

[Mack]

Brewed a handful of BIAB batches that have a peculiar albeit very similar flavor profile, and I'm curious if it is the water I've been using.

Water source: Tap water; I recently had one of those "aw sh*t" moments when I realized I've been using water run through the water softener, so I suspect I've added quite a bit of sodium unwittingly. I've only made one batch by-passing the softener, but it's still in the FV, so no flavor testing yet.

Couple of examples of the batches:
Lawnmower Ale - 7.5 lbs 2 Row, 1lb Flaked Rice. w/ 1 oz Mt Hood hops added at 60 mins. I used Voss Kveik yeast for this one because I wnted to see how quick I could turn it around.

Clawhammer "negra Modelo" clone - 8lbs pilsner malt, 1.5 lbs Vienna Malt, 4 oz Crystal 60, 2 oz Choc malt - 2oz Tettnace and 1oz Hallertau hops - I used WLP940 on this and fermented under pressure in a corny keg.

Hit all numbers as designed, FG were good on both. Cold crashed and added gelatin. Both exceptionally clear (I'm serving the "modelo" from the FV and it is perfect).

Now my issue: Bread flavor. I initially said this taste malty. The lawnmower ale taste like wheat beer, the modelo has the same flavor profile. All i can think is tat the added sodium has increased the malt profile?

I've brewed a few west coast APAs and Just kegged a "fresh squished IPA" and they don't have the malty taste, so it appears that anything doesn't rely heavily on hop additions for taste is okay. Which means I'm tasting grain.

Am I wrong? I know this is subjective, but I also know that completely different types of beer, yeast, ferment temps shouldn't have the exact same taste, to me, the common denominator is the water.

FWIW - I have a Ward's test kit coming today, I've got all the salts on hand for the next batch, and I just bought all the distilled water that Food Lion has on the shelf.

Suggestions and opinions wanted.

 

[SFC Rudy]

Myself, I would buy a RO unit and make my own water, which I do. I use a RO Buddie, $69.99 on Amazon. Pays for itself after about 10 batches of beer over buying water from the store.

 

[Mack]

Myself, I would buy a RO unit and make my own water, which I do. I use a RO Buddie, $69.99 on Amazon. Pays for itself after about 10 batches of beer over buying water from the store.

Have you had your RO water tested? Just curious if there's a benefit to owing an RO filtration system vice buying RO water in town....

 

[refect]

Have you had your RO water tested? Just curious if there's a benefit to owing an RO filtration system vice buying RO water in town....

You are on the right track by getting a test from wards. This will help determine if you need to cut your current water with RO or distilled (If any) depending on the style brew you are making. Dialing in mash pH would be the next step if you are not already doing it. Final pH can play a roll as well in how malty, bright, or flabby the beer can be.

I have decently hard water, so I typically cut mine with distilled and then build the mineral profile up to where I want when brewing a lighter style beer. However, I don't really need to cut it with much, or any at all when brewing darker beers.

I don't have an RO system, so I just buy the cheap dollar gallon jugs of distilled water from walmart. The only issue/concern I have when buying RO water from the store is that you don't know how often those filters are changed and if they are still filtering out water appropriately to make RO water.

 

[Mack]

My goal is to be able to simply bypass the softener and use the tap water (with some basic additions). We get our water from an aquifer, so it is already pretty hard, and it tastes fine. I did just get a pH meter (cheapo from amazon) and my tap water reads at 8.9, I haven't d a mash pH with it, because I'm still waiting for the lactic acid to come in the mail, and there was no use in looking at it if I can't fix it. If I can overcome this "all my beer tastes the same" phenomenon, I'll invest in a Milwaukee meter.

 

[refect]

My goal is to be able to simply bypass the softener and use the tap water (with some basic additions). We get our water from an aquifer, so it is already pretty hard, and it tastes fine. I did just get a pH meter (cheapo from amazon) and my tap water reads at 8.9, I haven't d a mash pH with it, because I'm still waiting for the lactic acid to come in the mail, and there was no use in looking at it if I can't fix it. If I can overcome this "all my beer tastes the same" phenomenon, I'll invest in a Milwaukee meter.

I use one of the Apera pH meters from Amazon and it seems to work just fine.

The "all my beer tastes the same" phenomenon can also be caused by a number of things. Water adjustment is certainly a good step in the right direction to making better/great beer, but you also want to make sure the yeast are healthy and fermenting at the right temperature (temperature controlled if possible). As well as keeping oxygen out post fermentation as much as possible. Oxidized beer is the silent assassin of beer flavor.

 

[MaxStout]

Have you had your RO water tested? Just curious if there's a benefit to owing an RO filtration system vice buying RO water in town....

RO can be measured with a $15 TDS meter. It doesn't determine the makeup of the solids, just the total ppm dissolved (hence the name). This can be used to monitor the rejection rate the system provides. If the rejection rate is above ~95%, it's good to go. One big benefit of home RO water is no hauling water jugs to and from the store. And does the store change filters in its machines when needed, or do they let it go too long? Home RO gives me peace of mind and nearly pure water from which I can build brewing water.

 

[SFC Rudy]

Have you had your RO water tested? Just curious if there's a benefit to owing an RO filtration system vice buying RO water in town....

I have a TDS meter, and it reads 198 ppm going in and 0 coming out.

Never had my water tested. Water chemistry coming to your house can change with seasons and who knows what changes they might make at your water treatment plant without telling you.

I just felt that if I was going to play with water chemistry, why dick around with unknowns. I start at zero and go to where I want to go. But that's me.

 

[refect]

I have a TDS meter, and it reads 198 ppm going in and 0 coming out.

Never had my water tested. Water chemistry coming to your house can change with seasons and who knows what changes they might make at your water treatment plant without telling you.

I just felt that if I was going to play with water chemistry, why dick around with unknowns. I start at zero and go to where I want to go. But that's me.

I send my water out to wards yearly. I probably should send it more often, but the changes are never a significant amount. I usually see 1 - 4 ppm +/- change each year on some of the mineral content, and some stays the same.

 

[Mack]

I use one of the Apera pH meters from Amazon and it seems to work just fine.

Oxidized beer is the silent assassin of beer flavor.

Yeah, my pH meter cost $8.99 lol. I've eliminated oxidation by fermenting and serving from a sealed container, the only time oxygen was introduced was during the transfer form the brew kettle to the keg (before pitching yeast). I've used multiple types of yeast, (ale and lager, dry and liquid) and the flavor is the same. Gotta be the water, it's the ONLY similar factor.

 

[MaxStout]

If you have an RO system that's working well and you use 100% RO for building your brewing water (no mixing in tap water), the makeup of your tap water is kind of moot. The important thing is to monitor TDS from time to time, to ensure the RO membrane is still doing its job. If you see the rejection rate declining, it's a good indication that it's time to replace the membrane. Also, the pre-filters (sediment and carbon block) should be replaced more frequently, depending on use. If your system uses non-proprietary filters (i.e., standard 2.5 x 10"), replacement is not very expensive.

 

[MicroMickey]

My local water comes from the Mississippi River. We enjoy a full spectrum of agricultural runoff, city waste-water effluence, chemical / refinery discharge, and whatever else makes it's way into "Old Man River." Even with all that, our local water department cleans it up and provides a rather consistent product year to year and season to season.

I run all of my mash and sparge water through a carbon filter. Over the years, with only a bit of tweaking, I've been able to brew just about any style of beer that my heart and imagination have desired. Start with a water report and get a good water-tweaking software program. Just remember to keep good records of your attempts. A dull pencil is far better than a sharp memory.

 

[schuchdan]

I started brewing just over a year ago, and right from the start I have been using R.O. water. I figured if I make a recipe I love I will always be able to recreate it, even if I move.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Go buy some spring water from the store and brew a batch with that, you should be able to find it's mineral content from wherever that water might be sourced. If you end up with the same flavor then it's something else, if that flavor is gone then you know what to spend your time, energy, and money on. This will be a simple way to narrow it down. Just be sure to follow the rest of your normal process.

 

[bestcoast]

If you're using tap water, are you treating it with campden tablets?

 

[camonick]

and my tap water reads at 8.9, I haven't d a mash pH with it, because I'm still waiting for the lactic acid to come in the mail, and there was no use in looking at it if I can't fix it.

The beginning pH of your brewing water doesn’t mean anything. Download one of the several online water treatment spreadsheets and use it to build your water profile. If you’re using RO or distilled water, your well water profile won’t really do much good unless you want to mess around with using it to dilute one of the other waters to reduce costs.

 

[Mack]

Go buy some spring water from the store and brew a batch with that, you should be able to find it's mineral content from wherever that water might be sourced. If you end up with the same flavor then it's something else, if that flavor is gone then you know what to spend your time, energy, and money on. This will be a simple way to narrow it down. Just be sure to follow the rest of your normal process.

I have done basically this - Food Lion had 32 gallons of distilled water on "closeout", so I bought them all - that's enough for 4 batches. I'm going to re-brew a lawnmower ale AG kit I got from Great Fermentations, simply because it cost $16, AND I want to find a cheap "go to" summer time crusher. The first batch tastes just like blue moon, straight wheat!

The beginning pH of your brewing water doesn’t mean anything. Download one of the several online water treatment spreadsheets and use it to build your water profile. If you’re using RO or distilled water, your well water profile won’t really do much good unless you want to mess around with using it to dilute one of the other waters to reduce costs.

My goal is to not have to buy water, it seems counter productive for my purposes. Salts are cheap, relatively speaking, and I'm hoping once my water profile comes back from Ward, I'll know how to correct it to get a neutral starting point.

I started brewing just over a year ago, and right from the start I have been using R.O. water. I figured if I make a recipe I love I will always be able to recreate it, even if I move.

If my tap water isn't conducive for for non-hoppy beers (because the APAs and NEIPAs I've brewed are fine), I'll use RO or distilled water for my "light" beers or lagers. I'm never going to move, so this "problem" will be resolved someway or another!

 

[madscientist451]

Now my issue: Bread flavor. I initially said this taste malty. The lawnmower ale taste like wheat beer, the modelo has the same flavor profile. All i can think is tat the added sodium has increased the malt profile?

I've brewed a few west coast APAs and Just kegged a "fresh squished IPA" and they don't have the malty taste, so it appears that anything doesn't rely heavily on hop additions for taste is okay. Which means I'm tasting grain.

Am I wrong? I know this is subjective, but I also know that completely different types of beer, yeast, ferment temps shouldn't have the exact same taste, to me, the common denominator is the water.

FWIW - I have a Ward's test kit coming today, I've got all the salts on hand for the next batch, and I just bought all the distilled water that Food Lion has on the shelf.

Suggestions and opinions wanted.

I think the OP is on the right track with the idea of using distilled water and seeing how it comes out, but I would think a report of “bread flavor” would be more of a yeast issue. There’s likely more than one “common denominator”, and one of those could be the yeast handling routine. Not trying to criticize, I’m just saying what it looks like from here.

 

[Mack]

I think the OP is on the right track with the idea of using distilled water and seeing how it comes out, but I would think a report of “bread flavor” would be more of a yeast issue. There’s likely more than one “common denominator”, and one of those could be the yeast handling routine. Not trying to criticize, I’m just saying what it looks like from here.

Would the same flavor apply to 3 different types of yeast? (Kviek, US-05, WLP904) - They ALL taste the same. Curious...

 

[madscientist451]

Maybe, but I would encourage you to look up “bread flavor” in homebrew, and see what’s there.

 

[refect]

You mentioned brewing an AG lawnmower kit beer. Could the ingredients be at play here? Are the grains in the kit pre-crushed? If so, some of those kits sit on the shelf for a very long time, so you could potentially be using pretty old/stale grains (especially if they are pre-milled), which could affect the flavor of your beer. Have you brewed anything with fresher, recently crushed grains that were not in a kit and not an IPA? Massive hopped IPAs can mask certain off flavors, or make it hard to notice some flaws.

 

[Mack]

@refect The lawnmower kit was fresh grains that Great Fermentations crushed for me. The next brew I made was the Brickwarmer Holiday Red AG all grain from Northern Brewer, again, new grains (I assume), and although they were crushed at NB, i ran them thru my mill set at .032". The next brew was a modelo clone pulled from the clawhammer website - i ordered bulk grains for this one. So basically, 3 different beers, pilsner malts, 2-row, 6-row, flaked rice, flaked corn, etc etc... ordered from 3 different websites, all different yeasts, all taste...the same. My beers are clear, and the modelo actually has a decent almost clone taste if not for the damned wheat undertones. The lawnmower ale has been sitting for a month, I cant force myself to drink it, the wheat flavor is just too strong.

Now... if my mash temps were inadvertently high, I would expect tannins. the way I think of tannins is like in wine, bittering, mouth puckering, right? I don't get that from the flavors, but I do want to check the next batch because I wonder if my mash is getting too warm due to my temp probe being "off"... I'm going to use an external thermometer next run to match the built in probe to its actual temps... But would a crappy mash cycle cause me to miss my numbers?

I'm thinking out loud here, and I have exhaustive notes on all of this stuff - things to change on the next run..

Water being sent to Ward labs tonight, so hopefully I'll have an answer in the next few days... In the interim, I have all the distilled water I need for 4 more runs (with salts added of course).

 

[tracer bullet]

If you're using tap water, are you treating it with campden tablets?

Wanted to be sure this was seen. If there are chloramines in the water you may want to deal with them.

 

[Mack]

@bestcoast @tracer bullet sorry I didn't mention that, yes, I am using campden tabs for each batch. I don't have a chlorine number, but the county water report has a very low ppm count, don't recall at the moment, but I AM treating just in case.

 

[rburrelli]

You mention “wheat undertones” in these beers but I don’t see wheat in any of your kit recipes. Am I wrong?

 

[Mack]

@rburrelli you're correct, no wheat.

 

[Mack]

Could it possibly be a "warm ferment"? I have fermented with kveik at 90°+, but my ferment room is typically a steady 65°F....

 

[bestcoast]

Could it possibly be a "warm ferment"? I have fermented with kveik at 90°+, but my ferment room is typically a steady 65°F....

It would be strange for fermentation temperature to be the culprit for an off-flavor across several beers fermented with different yeasts, including kveik. You also wouldn't typically get a bready flavor from a warm ferment, in my experience. And Voss certainly won't throw off the typical off-flavors you find from other yeasts. So I would look elsewhere.

That said, controlling fermentation temps is usually the easiest way to improve your flavor. While your fermentation room may be 65 degrees, the wort itself could be quite a bit warmer than that--into the low or mid 70s depending on how wild the yeast is going. You're probably ok with most yeasts in a 65 degree room, but you will get better results by making sure the wort temperature (as opposed to the room temperature) stays a consistent 65. I'd still try and nail down the source of the bread flavor before I changed anything else about your process, though.

 

[refect]

This off flavor of "everything tastes like nothing but wheat" you are experiencing has me baffled. You seem to be doing everything good from your responses to all the suggestions. The only thing I'd suggest is try to do temperature controlled fermentations to help improve the beer, but like bestcoast said, that wouldn't really create a wheat off flavor. I don't see water creating that flavor either. You'd be more likely to create astringent phenolic flavors from water chemistry.

What is your mash/sparge process like? Are you crushing your grains too much? Mashing too long, or sparging too long? Sparge water too hot?

What is your cellar process like too? How long are you conditioning your beers for? Are you force carbing or natural carbing? Are you adding any fining agents? Maybe the grainyness if from your beers needing need more time to age and are still green?

You also said you serve out of the same vessel you ferment in? Are you using a floating dip tube? Maybe your pulling some trub and break material with your beer if it's coming off the bottom? Possibly try transferring to another keg (Purged with co2) to get it off the trub and serving from that?

I know i asked a lot of questions, but I just was throwing more possibilities out there to look at.

 

[Mack]

@refect All good questions, I'll try to answer them.

I'm using a Vevor electric brewing kettle, basically a grainfather clone. No basket, so I'm doing BIAB. Prep strike water at full volume (typically 7.22 gals) and heat to 156-162 (depending on grain bill) which lands me at 148-156 after dough in. Mashes are typically 60 mins, and I stir/agitate the grain about every 15 mins to 1) keep it off the "hot section" of the bottom of the kettle, and 2) I've found I have better efficiency by using this process. Since I'm BIAB, there is no sparge, and after a mashout at 170 for 10mins, I lift the bag and let it drain into the kettle while I ramp up to boiling. I don't use a hoist, instead I've found a 15 quart colander fits perfectly inside the kettle so the bag is lifted and colander slipped under, allowing all the wort to drain back into the kettle. I do a pretty vigorous squeeze of the bag and the last handful of brew days, my efficiencies have been in the high 80s - low 90 percentages, which I am more than happy with. Post mash volume typically about 6.5ish gallons.

Grain is ordered "crushed" from supplier, but I run it thru the mill again at .030" and have a nice minimum amount of "flour" in the grain bucket. The mill addition to my brew day was my biggest increase in efficiency, prior to that, I was never hitting OG numbers.

So THIS may be a thing, as i am NOT a patient man when it comes to drinking this beer. I keg a batch, cold crash for 24-36 hours, add gelatin, rest another 24 hours, then, depending on whether I fermented under pressure (most cases YES), I begin serving at 10.7 psi and let it come to a nice carbonation lever over about 3-4 days. Is the beer green? Definitely. Is it good? Usually. I've got one keg that I've only poured maybe 4 pints from and it's been in the keezer for 6 weeks, crystal clear, but taste like blue moon (wheat).

I am using floating dip tubes in all kegs, but previously I racked from FV to keg and still experienced the same phenomenon. The lawnmower ale I mentioned earlier is one of those and there is little to no trub in the keg (that particular batch is in a Oxebar keg, so I can see the bottom with a flashlight).

I sincerely appreciate all the help folks are giving a newbie like myself - I want this to be successful, and the beers I've brewed are all drinkable, I just don't want them to taste like something they shouldn't. My primary reason for serving form the FV was to eliminate the possibility of oxidation. The "cardboard" taste seems like a good descriptor, but I feel its subjective and one's palate may not pick up the same off flavors. I've literally chewed a piece of cardboard box (very recently) to compare the taste, and it is NOT wet cardboard in my beer, lol.

Saturday morning will be brewing the same lawnmower ale, with distilled water instead of the tap, and I will duplicate all of the other steps, including yeast. Worst case scenario, another blue moon for the wife, but it MAY answer some questions while I impatiently wait for my water analysis to come back from Ward.

 

[refect]

@refect All good questions, I'll try to answer them.

I'm using a Vevor electric brewing kettle, basically a grainfather clone. No basket, so I'm doing BIAB. Prep strike water at full volume (typically 7.22 gals) and heat to 156-162 (depending on grain bill) which lands me at 148-156 after dough in. Mashes are typically 60 mins, and I stir/agitate the grain about every 15 mins to 1) keep it off the "hot section" of the bottom of the kettle, and 2) I've found I have better efficiency by using this process. Since I'm BIAB, there is no sparge, and after a mashout at 170 for 10mins, I lift the bag and let it drain into the kettle while I ramp up to boiling. I don't use a hoist, instead I've found a 15 quart colander fits perfectly inside the kettle so the bag is lifted and colander slipped under, allowing all the wort to drain back into the kettle. I do a pretty vigorous squeeze of the bag and the last handful of brew days, my efficiencies have been in the high 80s - low 90 percentages, which I am more than happy with. Post mash volume typically about 6.5ish gallons.

Grain is ordered "crushed" from supplier, but I run it thru the mill again at .030" and have a nice minimum amount of "flour" in the grain bucket. The mill addition to my brew day was my biggest increase in efficiency, prior to that, I was never hitting OG numbers.

So THIS may be a thing, as i am NOT a patient man when it comes to drinking this beer. I keg a batch, cold crash for 24-36 hours, add gelatin, rest another 24 hours, then, depending on whether I fermented under pressure (most cases YES), I begin serving at 10.7 psi and let it come to a nice carbonation lever over about 3-4 days. Is the beer green? Definitely. Is it good? Usually. I've got one keg that I've only poured maybe 4 pints from and it's been in the keezer for 6 weeks, crystal clear, but taste like blue moon (wheat).

I am using floating dip tubes in all kegs, but previously I racked from FV to keg and still experienced the same phenomenon. The lawnmower ale I mentioned earlier is one of those and there is little to no trub in the keg (that particular batch is in a Oxebar keg, so I can see the bottom with a flashlight).

I sincerely appreciate all the help folks are giving a newbie like myself - I want this to be successful, and the beers I've brewed are all drinkable, I just don't want them to taste like something they shouldn't. My primary reason for serving form the FV was to eliminate the possibility of oxidation. The "cardboard" taste seems like a good descriptor, but I feel its subjective and one's palate may not pick up the same off flavors. I've literally chewed a piece of cardboard box (very recently) to compare the taste, and it is NOT wet cardboard in my beer, lol.

Saturday morning will be brewing the same lawnmower ale, with distilled water instead of the tap, and I will duplicate all of the other steps, including yeast. Worst case scenario, another blue moon for the wife, but it MAY answer some questions while I impatiently wait for my water analysis to come back from Ward.

Your process seems pretty solid from what you said. I dont see anything wrong with your mash process. However, 3--4 days is certainly fast to be drinking some styles of beer. Some styles need more aging than others. I find that most of my average gravity beers start tasting their best around 2 weeks. IPAs included since some of the slight astringent bitterness from hop burn fades. Some darker malt forward beers start tasting even better after about 3-4 weeks in the keg. The roasted bitterness starts to mellow and become more pleasant. Sometimes you need more time to get the yeast to drop out of the way and let other flavors come forward.

Six weeks in the keezer on that one batch should be plenty of time for it to condition. What style of beer was that, and what yeast?

 

[Mack]

@refect The batch in the keezer is the Lawnmower Ale from Great Fermentations.

Grain bill: 7½ lbs 2-Row Brewers Malt, 1 lb Flaked Rice, 1oz Mt Hood hops for 60.
Yeast: I used Voss Kveik for this one, only because I wanted to see how fast I could turn it around (its a $15 batch). Surely not the BEST yeast, but it aint the worst thing I could've done lol.

The beer is perfectly cleaned up, I can almost read thru it.

 

[bestcoast]

I don't see any problem with tapping a keg after three or four days. I'm not the most patient either!

How long are you letting the beer sit on the yeast before you cold crash or transfer?

 

[Mack]

I don't see any problem with tapping a keg after three or four days. I'm not the most patient either!

How long are you letting the beer sit on the yeast before you cold crash or transfer?

I'm pulling the beer off the yeast after 24 hours of FG stability (when I do transfer).

 

[bestcoast]

You may want to let the next batch sit a few days longer at temps in the 60s to see if anything changes. Even after they're done eating sugar, the yeast can continue to condition the beer and work through compounds that create off flavors.

 

[beren]

Could be many things, but maybe that “wheat” taste you get is a corn flavor from DMS. Also here is a decent list of things that can make a beer taste like “Homebrew”. But you def. are drinking too soon and likely also not letting it sit in the fermenter long enough as well.

 

[Mack]

@beren I'm going to duplicate my brew with different water, split into 2 FVs, then pull one when I normally would, and let the other rest an additional week. I feel like this will accomplish two "test scenarios" at once.

 

[refect]

I thought a little more about this. You said you buy your grains already crushed, and then crush them again? What is the reason for purchasing crushed grains if you're going to crush them with your mill?

The only reason I ask is because you want to use grains that have been crushed relatively soon. Im not sure if you are waiting a week to several weeks after purchasing kits with fresh milled grain? If so, that could be part of the issue. Maybe try getting your grains whole/uncrushed, and then mill them yourself once you are ready to brew.

Edit: I typically mill my grains and get my water profile dialed in the night before I'm going to brew, so all I have to do is dump the grains and mash in when I'm ready to start.

 

[Mack]

Wanted to follow up, or conclude, it anyone ever stumbles upon this thread.

I brewed the second batch with distilled water, added salts according to brewfather, and pitched kveik yeast, just like the first batch. Fermented at 100°F and saw activity stop at 14 hours. OG was 1041, FG 1008. I dropped it to room temp (65°) over 3 days and kegged on day 5.

It's delicious. No wheat, only the expected lemon from the yeast, exactly what I was going for. Wife loves this one and she's not a beer drinker.

The water softener was the culprit. Still don't have my water report from Wards, it's only been 5 days though.

With this knowledge, I'm confident that i could use something like US-05, or maybe treat it like a lager, and have a perfect summertime chugger.

Thanks for all the help guys!

 

[madscientist451]

Thanks for posting an update, sometimes the results are never known….