I'm losing my mind over this

[LovesIPA]

I am absolutely stumped at why my beer continues to taste bad. It tastes great right up until I keg it. I taste the FG sample and it's always fine.

After a couple of days on gas, the beer completely changes. Hop flavor and aroma all but disappear. The beer takes on a bad flavor. My girlfriend describes it as metallic and I can see that but it's not the word I would use. I'm really bad at describing flavors unfortunately so I'm struggling to find a word that describes what I taste in this beer.

I brewed Biermuncher's Oktoberfast Ale a few weeks ago. I kegged it the other day. It finished at 1.014 and the sample was great. I was really surprised how much like a real Oktoberfest beer it tasted like. I was looking forward to drinking it cold and carbonated, but instead I have 5 gallons of beer that tastes quite bad and nothing like it tasted when I kegged it. Ditto with almost every recipe I've brewed in the last year. Centennial blonde is the only recipe I've brewed that this hasn't happened to.

I also put a couple of gallons of RO water in a keg and carbonated it to see if it would pick up any weird flavors. After a week, it just tasted like carbonated water. No off-flavors at all.

Things I know it's not:
- water (RO built up with salts according to Bru'N Water)
- fermentation temperature (temp-controlled ferm chamber)
- sanitation (I sanitize everything the beer comes in contact with)
- recipes (happens to every recipe)
- yeast health/viability (starters grown from slants, various strains)
- tubing (replaced every piece of tubing in my entire system)
- CO2 supply (happened on multiple cylinders)
- the kegs (all new rubber parts; cleaned and sanitized thoroughly)

I have a wheat beer, OktoberFAST, and two IPAs that all have exhibited this behavior. I have dozens more over the past year as well.

I will either figure this problem out or quit the hobby altogether. There is no sense is wasting time and money brewing beer that will taste like crap once it's kegged.

 

[unionrdr]

It's either one of those off flavors that carbonation brings out,or something in your kegging system leaking or has some nastie stuff lurking in a tight,hard to scrub spot. Sometimes soaking isn't enough.

 

[progmac]

can you give us an example of your salt additions? sometimes the calculators provide recommendations that in the real world taste bad.

 

[brew_ny]

maybe try priming a keg with corn sugar to carb and see if it taste different to you

do you feel as if you kegs are over-carbonated ? some say that can lead to an off taste

good luck

S_N

 

[NewWestBrewer]

Most likely has something to do with your keg. Why dont you bottle a batch to make sure it isn't something else and see if the results differ.

 

[sfrisby]

How about bottling your next batch. This will help isolate your kegging system as being the culprit, or not.

Don't give up! The problem will be solved. Don't quit the hobby.

 

[LovesIPA]

It's either one of those off flavors that carbonation brings out,or something in your kegging system leaking or has some nastie stuff lurking in a tight,hard to scrub spot. Sometimes soaking isn't enough.

I took apart the regulator last week and cleaned it. I didn't find a speck of dirt in it. Aside from the gas lines themselves, I don't know where else to look because it's not specific to a keg or two.

Also, wouldn't the carbonated water pick up the same flavor?

can you give us an example of your salt additions? sometimes the calculators provide recommendations that in the real world taste bad.

Sure, this is the OktoberFast ale:
3.1 gallons strike:

0.6g CaSO4
0.6g MgSO4
0.6g CaCO3
1.5g CaCL2

5.6 gallons sparge:

1.8g CaSO4
1.1g MgSO4
3.7g CaCL2

maybe try priming a keg with corn sugar to carb and see if it taste different to you

That's not a bad idea.

do you feel as if you kegs are over-carbonated ? some say that can lead to an off taste

Describing this as an "off-flavor" is unfair to off-flavors everywhere. It's a complete transformation of the flavor profile of the beer. If you tasted the FG sample, and then what's in the keg, you wouldn't believe them to be the same beer.

 

[unionrdr]

Kegs have a few tight spots that are hard to clean,& if you clean all of them the same way,then all the kegs will exibit the same behavior. & beer lines def need to be cleaned out as well.

 

[podz]

It sounds like over-carbonation.

 

[Dr. Francois]

What is your serving PSI? I stick to 8-10 because I don't like carbonic bite.

 

[jeff62217]

Do you have a chrome plated faucet/shank on your kegerator OP?
I had the chrome hardware that came with my haier unit up until a few months ago. I had a commercial half barrel of SN pale ale, and was getting some off flavors about mid keg.

I always soaked my faucet and cleaned my lines after each keg, but the chrome wore off the inside pieces of the faucet, and mold and bacteria began to grow there, causing the off flavors. I discovered this when I took my old faucet apart.
I had never done that before, otherwise I would've upgraded sooner, I'm sure.
Once I upgraded to SS faucet/shank problem gone.

 

[Cider123]

Interesting. I would have thought that the suggestions here would have had more focus on the minerals added. I can definitely see how some of those minerals would lend a metallic, off-taste, and maybe not until they combined with ingredients in the beer or maybe even with the dissolved CO2.
Do you have to use RO water? Can you try tap or plain bottled water from the market? When I make some british ales I am often tempted to mess with the burtonizing salts, but I then decide to walk away from that. That is a screw up waiting to happen. I don't care what some instruction guide tells you, I bet you can easily screw up you water with all those additives. Just my thoughts.

 

[DocScott]

Darn... I thought we had this licked a while back with your co2 tank!

Maybe try bottling a batch and bottle condition it. See if it happens again. At least that will tell you if it's something in your brewing water/process/ingredients (I don't think so) or in your kegging. At least helps narrow it somewhat.

Frustrating...

 

[LovesIPA]

Kegs have a few tight spots that are hard to clean,& if you clean all of them the same way,then all the kegs will exibit the same behavior. & beer lines def need to be cleaned out as well.

I do have all new beer lines. I just put them in a week or two ago.

This is how I clean the kegs. I completely disassemble them. I fill them up with about 1/2 to 3/4 of a scoop of oxyclean free and water. I let them sit for 24 hours then I dump them, rinse well, sanitize and put everything back together. I leave about a quart of sanitizer in the keg, then shake it and dump it when I'm ready to keg.

It sounds like over-carbonation.

Zero chance.

What is your serving PSI? I stick to 8-10 because I don't like carbonic bite.

It's set at 12 right now. It's definitely nothing to do with overcarbonation or serving pressure.

Do you have a chrome plated faucet/shank on your kegerator OP?

All stainless steel shanks and faucets.

Darn... I thought we had this licked a while back with your co2 tank!

Maybe try bottling a batch and bottle condition it. See if it happens again. At least that will tell you if it's something in your brewing water/process/ingredients (I don't think so) or in your kegging. At least helps narrow it somewhat.

Frustrating...

I thought that was the problem too, but I'm convinced that it was just part of it. The CO2 coming out of that cylinder did not smell right at all. I guess I will break out the bottling gear.

I was at one of my favorite bars last night and had a pint of 101 North's Heroine IPA. I ordered a second one and had to wait for them to change the keg. The second pint tasted weird and had the same flavor profile to it that my beers have. It wasn't as pronounced, but it was definitely there. My girlfriend tried it and noticed it too.

 

[unionrdr]

They probably didn't thoroughly clean the system before installing the new keg. & the point where the top of the keg meets the sides can be a tight spot with that small hole in the top that gets capped/locked down. A carboy brush might help make sure the corners are clean & free of residue. Plus anything that touches the beer coming out of the keg to the tap all has to be clean & sanitized. It's got to be some little oversite somewhere...

 

[grathan]

"After a couple days on gas".. Should still be flat at this point.

Carb/serving pressure?

Serving temp too low?

PH mash adjustments?

 

[PastorofMuppets]

can you put some in a growler and take it to a home brew shop for their input?


also Id ease up on your salt additions.
It sounds possible that is the reason for the issue to me.
Less is better in most cases.

 

[m_stodd]

+1 for looking into over carbonation. I just had a batch where I had like 3x too much priming sugar some how. Tastes metallic/mineral-y at the first pour, but if I swirl it around and get a lot of the CO2 out, it starts tasting like beer again (still not great, but different story).

I'd suggest pouring a glass, let head dissipate, swirl, let head dissipate, swirl... and try it at close to room temp. That can at least rule our over carbonation if it still tastes the same.

 

[kerant]

I have something similar with an off flavor I can't place. Some of the beer is in bottles and is fine. I wonder??? if spraying the inside of the keg with star san could contribute to this because I'm pretty sure the sanitation is fine.

 

[grathan]

Did you try a different co2 source? Maybe there is something rancid in their filling station or something weird like that.

RO doesn't remove chlorine. Perhaps some type of reaction.

 

[LovesIPA]

can you put some in a growler and take it to a home brew shop for their input?

Yep, twice. "Tastes fine to me." Argh.

+1 for looking into over carbonation.

Again, no, it's not overcarbonation. I can pick up the flavor within three or four days of kegging. Not anywhere near enough time for the beer to even fully carbonate, never mind overcarbonate.

Did you try a different co2 source? Maybe there is something rancid in their filling station or something weird like that.

Yes, I've tried two different places.

RO doesn't remove chlorine. Perhaps some type of reaction.

There is no chlorine in the RO water I use. It's removed by one of the other filters.

It's got to be some kind of sanitation issue. I've watched some youtube videos on keg cleaning, and I can't see what I might be doing that could cause it. Does using cold water with Oxyclean somehow lessen its effects? I mean, I go so far as to sanitize the socket I use to install the posts.

 

[JuanMoore]

What kind of sanitizer are you using, and are you using tap water or RO water to mix it up? How are you transferring to your kegs?

And while using cold water with oxiclean does lessen the cleaning power, it should still clean just fine. It is however much more difficult to completely rinse the oxiclean residue off with cold water, and requires many more rinses.

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

What is your serving PSI? I stick to 8-10 because I don't like carbonic bite.

Keeping in mind pressure is linked tempeature.

Speaking of... serving temp will totally make a diff on how a beer tastes. Maybe you are serving to cold?

Also.. how long are you aging in the keg? Flavor will change quite a bit over time. Maybe you are serving beer yhat is to green.

 

[Hanso]

I was at one of my favorite bars last night and had a pint of 101 North's Heroine IPA. I ordered a second one and had to wait for them to change the keg. The second pint tasted weird and had the same flavor profile to it that my beers have. It wasn't as pronounced, but it was definitely there. My girlfriend tried it and noticed it too.

This is interesting. So far the only thing you've said to describe the flavor is weird and your girlfriend said metallic. Also that the lhbs guys did not notice it. Very hard to understand the problem when it is described in terms of what process is not responsible for it. Maybe it is a cleaning chemical residue that you are particularly sensitive to. I'd bottle next. If it is fine, then next kegging avoid the oxy and just go with a good rinse and starsan. Just the idea of using a powerful detergent on my equipment has been enough for me to avoid using it, so I can't say I'm experienced with oxy, just an idea... Good luck.

 

[PastorofMuppets]

i use oxy on my kegs. I also rinse for about 8 solid minutes everytime.
It cleans great but is a ***** to rinse

 

[unionrdr]

Or try another cleaner,switching from oxyfree to PBW,which is made specially for this. If you have certain sensitivities,the change might do it. I use PBW exclusively to clean with & it hasn't failed me yet. Great with really warm to hot tap water,depending on what you're cleaning. I prefer the right tool for the job.

 

[LovesIPA]

What kind of sanitizer are you using, and are you using tap water or RO water to mix it up? How are you transferring to your kegs?

I use star-san, diluted according to the instructions on the package.

RO water built up with salts.

I use an autosiphon and I purge the keg with CO2 immediately prior to racking.

And while using cold water with oxiclean does lessen the cleaning power, it should still clean just fine. It is however much more difficult to completely rinse the oxiclean residue off with cold water, and requires many more rinses.

I rinse it until I can't feel the slipperiness on the inside of the keg anymore. Squeaky clean, in other words.

Speaking of... serving temp will totally make a diff on how a beer tastes. Maybe you are serving to cold?

I am definitely not making it clear how bad this beer tastes. It's awful.

Also.. how long are you aging in the keg? Flavor will change quite a bit over time. Maybe you are serving beer yhat is to green.

I have to reject that as well, based on two things. One, it doesn't matter how long the beer sits in the keg. As bad as they are, it will be a long time before I either dump them or force myself to drink them. Two, they taste great right out of the fermenter.

This is interesting. So far the only thing you've said to describe the flavor is weird and your girlfriend said metallic. Also that the lhbs guys did not notice it. Very hard to understand the problem when it is described in terms of what process is not responsible for it. Maybe it is a cleaning chemical residue that you are particularly sensitive to. I'd bottle next. If it is fine, then next kegging avoid the oxy and just go with a good rinse and starsan. Just the idea of using a powerful detergent on my equipment has been enough for me to avoid using it, so I can't say I'm experienced with oxy, just an idea... Good luck.

PBW is a powerful detergent too, and based on this thread and the youtube videos I've watched, lots of other folks use it as well. Now what I need to figure out is what those folks are doing differently than me.

i use oxy on my kegs. I also rinse for about 8 solid minutes everytime.
It cleans great but is a ***** to rinse

I will rinse THOROUGHLY next time, trust me. Awesome username, too.

Or try another cleaner,switching from oxyfree to PBW,which is made specially for this. If you have certain sensitivities,the change might do it. I use PBW exclusively to clean with & it hasn't failed me yet. Great with really warm to hot tap water,depending on what you're cleaning. I prefer the right tool for the job.

Are you saying that Oxyclean is the wrong tool for the job? I understood that it was pretty similar to PBW.

I do actually have some PBW that I recently bought. I will try it out next time I have a keg that needs cleaning. Unfortunately I don't have a laundry sink. If I want hot tap water I have to use the kitchen sink and the keg won't fit under the faucet so I have to use a pitcher.

Maybe I'm a little lazy lol.

Thanks for everyone's help on this.

 

[Hello]

You filled your CO2 using different companies, right? Did you swap out the CO2 canister as a whole?

 

[LovesIPA]

You filled your CO2 using different companies, right? Did you swap out the CO2 canister as a whole?

Yes. I swap the whole cylinder.

I guess I should also point out that I got a CO2 cylinder that was contaminated with wine or beer, and anything that got carbonated by that cylinder was undrinkable. I dumped about 15 gallons of beer from that one.

 

[WileECoyote]

IMO, Co2 taste real bad when it is going into solution, it takes 10 to 14 days @ 9 psi for that nasty Co2 taste to go away.

Give it some time like 14 days on the gas.

Cheers

 

[unionrdr]

I'm saying oxyclean (oxyfree to be exact) is not exactly like PBW. It's made to take stains out of cloth. PBW in the different dilutions listed on the container will clean anything,is food safe,& biodegradable.

 

[progmac]

tell us about your typical fermentation schedule

 

[rayfound]

I'd say you're loading up with too much mineral.

Are you brewing Extract? If so, you shouldn't really bother with any mineral additions to RO Water - the minerals are already concentrated in the extract from when the maltster did the original mash and concentration. Just brew with straight RO.

If you're brewing all-grain, then I'd suggest trying a VERY limited water profile, as presented in the water chemistry primer:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

Basically, in the simplest of terms, add 1 tsp CaCl to each 5 gallons of water treated. ( I usually prefill 2 6-gallon carboys with RO water, and just add a bit more than a tsp to each)

Also, add 2% Acidulated Malt to your mash.

The vaguely "Metallic" taste, IMO, is almost certainly excess mineral content.

You certainly seem like you understand sanitation and carbonation, so I see it as fairly unlikely that you're getting repeated infections, etc...

 

[ballsy]

+1 infinity to bottling a batch! You rule out any keg related issue (including lines). Also, why not try to use normal water (even bottled spring water) for a batch which rules out the possible errors on "making" your water. I would do all of these with 1 gallon batches with really fast turnover beers (SMaSH or something really pale) to get answers quicker and less wasted liquid gold Good luck!

 

[LovesIPA]

Give it some time like 14 days on the gas.

It doesn't matter how long I let it sit in the keg.

tell us about your typical fermentation schedule

5-7 days at low 60's in chest freezer with an STC-1000. The probe is taped to the side of the fermenter. Then I move the batch where it sits at about 72 ambient for 2 weeks. Then I either keg it, or dry hop it for a week and then keg. I use sewn together paint strainer bags which are boiled before the hops are placed in the bag and it gets dumped into the primary fermenter.

Basically, in the simplest of terms, add 1 tsp CaCl to each 5 gallons of water treated.

I have a decent understanding of water chemistry too, and I'm not going to just blindly dump arbitrary amounts of minerals into the water without any regard to what kind of beer it is. That approach is not going to make good beer, in my opinion. Also, you're telling that I'm using too many mineral additions, and then you tell me I should use roughly 10-20 times as much as I'm using now.



I brew all-grain batches.

+1 infinity to bottling a batch! You rule out any keg related issue (including lines). Also, why not try to use normal water (even bottled spring water) for a batch which rules out the possible errors on "making" your water. I would do all of these with 1 gallon batches with really fast turnover beers (SMaSH or something really pale) to get answers quicker and less wasted liquid gold Good luck!

I brewed a Racer 5 clone as my first ever batch, and used spring water. It came out great, but it was made with extract and bottled. But the reason that I don't think it's water chemistry is that because I have spent HOURS researching and understanding water chemistry. The documentation and comments in Bru'n Water helped me understand it more than anything. I've also read (over and over, until I understood) Palmer's chapter on the subject and for a while, I was doing water calculations with my own spreadsheet. It was too lacking in functionality and for the effort it would have required to get it there, it was easier to learn to use Bru'N Water.

The other major reason that I'm confident it's not bad water chemistry is because the beer tastes fine out of the fermenter. It's not until a few days in the keg that the flavor begins to show up. I don't buy that the CO2 is reacting with the water elements or anything else in the beer either. CO2 is not very reactive at all, and it seems like this would be a widespread and common concern if it was that easy to do.

 

[ballsy]

It doesn't matter how long I let it sit in the keg.

5-7 days at low 60's in chest freezer with an STC-1000. The probe is taped to the side of the fermenter. Then I move the batch where it sits at about 72 ambient for 2 weeks. Then I either keg it, or dry hop it for a week and then keg. I use sewn together paint strainer bags which are boiled before the hops are placed in the bag and it gets dumped into the primary fermenter.

I have a decent understanding of water chemistry too, and I'm not going to just blindly dump arbitrary amounts of minerals into the water without any regard to what kind of beer it is. That approach is not going to make good beer, in my opinion.

I brew all-grain batches, never extract.

I brewed a Racer 5 clone as my first ever batch, and used spring water. It came out great, but it was made with extract and bottled. But the reason that I don't think it's water chemistry is that because I have spent HOURS researching and understanding water chemistry. The documentation and comments in Bru'n Water helped me understand it more than anything. I've also read (over and over, until I understood) Palmer's chapter on the subject and for a while, I was doing water calculations with my own spreadsheet. It was too lacking in functionality and for the effort it would have required to get it there, it was easier to learn to use Bru'N Water.

The other major reason that I'm confident it's not bad water chemistry is because the beer tastes fine out of the fermenter. It's not until a few days in the keg that the flavor begins to show up. I don't buy that the CO2 is reacting with the water elements or anything else in the beer either. CO2 is not very reactive at all, and it seems like this would be a widespread and common concern if it was that easy to do.

More reason to bottle ur next batch and see what happens!!

 

[JuanMoore]

RO water built up with salts.

I use an autosiphon and I purge the keg with CO2 immediately prior to racking.

I am definitely not making it clear how bad this beer tastes. It's awful.

Just to be clear, your star-san is being mixed with RO water built up with salts? If your tap water has chlorine or chloramines in it, even just the residue left behind from the star-san foam could cause enough chlorophenol production to get beyond the miniscule taste threshold. And FWIW star-san will be more effective and have a longer shelf life if you mix it with straight RO or distilled water, no salts added.

Did you replace the autosiphon when you replaced your transfer tubing? IME those things are more likely to hold on to nasties than even old scratched up transfer tubing.

It would really help if you could be more descriptive about the off flavor, or let some more people taste it and see if they can offer some better descriptives.

 

[rayfound]

I have a decent understanding of water chemistry too, and I'm not going to just blindly dump arbitrary amounts of minerals into the water without any regard to what kind of beer it is. That approach is not going to make good beer, in my opinion. Also, you're telling that I'm using too many mineral additions, and then you tell me I should use roughly 10-20 times as much as I'm using now.
.

OK, now you have me intrigued (even if somewhat annoyed at your dismissive attitude). FWIW - I didn't make up the water recommendation, and I would recommend reading the thread I linked. If that is 20X more mineral than you're adding, I'd say you're way under-mineralized. 1 tsp = approx 5 grams of CaCl.

You're asking for help here, because you don't like your beer. There's a bunch of folks trying to help.

So Far you've eliminated from contention:

• Recipes - you found the problem on multiple recipes
• Sanitation - you're positive you've got everything sanitized
• Carbonation - you're sure you're doing that right
• Keg Cleaning - you're sure you are getting it properly cleaned.
• Water Chemistry - you're sure you know what's up with water chemistry
• Faucets - you're sure you've got good faucets with no problems
• Fermentation Temps - You're sure you've got that controlled properly

Either you've got some REALLY unique problem, or you're wrong on one of the items you're sure on.

So I think at this point for anyone to give you help, we're going to need a detailed run down of what your process is.

Let's list a recipe that you've had the problem on. List your mash temps (Is your thermometer accurate?), your mash PH, OG and FG, yeast used, fermentation schedule, pitch temp, water profile used (as well as how you measured the salts... I know my scale goes down to 1g increments, but isn't particularly accurate on really small values).

I hope we can help you, but I think at this point we all need more info.

 

[LovesIPA]

Just to be clear, your star-san is being mixed with RO water built up with salts?

I completely misread your post. The star-san water is straight tap water.

If your tap water has chlorine or chloramines in it, even just the residue left behind from the star-san foam could cause enough chlorophenol production to get beyond the miniscule taste threshold. And FWIW star-san will be more effective and have a longer shelf life if you mix it with straight RO or distilled water, no salts added.

Didn't know any of that. I'll be making sanitizer with RO water from now on.

Did you replace the autosiphon when you replaced your transfer tubing? IME those things are more likely to hold on to nasties than even old scratched up transfer tubing.

No, I didn't. I do have another that I can use.

I have a tendency to continue using something until it stops working. Is there a schedule that I should be replacing various components on?

It would really help if you could be more descriptive about the off flavor, or let some more people taste it and see if they can offer some better descriptives.

I agree, it would.

I'm having a very experienced homebrewer come over one night this week to see what he thinks.

 

[JuanMoore]

No, I didn't. I do have another that I can use.

I have a tendency to continue using something until it stops working. Is there a schedule that I should be replacing various components on?

I only mentioned it because if I suspected an infection the first thing I'd do is toss all of my transfer tubing, plastic racking canes, and autosiphon. Those are all plastic items than can be difficult to fully clean if there's something really nasty living in there, and they're relatively cheap to replace. Otherwise I'd also use it 'til it breaks.

And FWIW here are some flavor descriptors for chlorophenols, which could be the culprit if the tap water you're mixing with the sanitizer has high chlorine/chloramine levels. They can vary depending on the type of phenols in the beer from the yeast.

These flavors are often described as mediciney, Band-Aid™ like, or can be spicy like cloves. The cause are various phenols which are initially produced by the yeast. Chlorophenols result from the reaction of chlorine-based sanitizers (bleach) with phenol compounds and have very low taste thresholds.