I'm losing my mind over this

[Zoidberg]

I read in a couple spots that warm storage or fluctuating storage temps could cause it over carving. I'm skeptical since I didn't find it any reputable source but t may be true. I'm storing a 6 pack of a recently bottled pale in my 72-74F closet and the rest in my 55-60F storage area in my apartment buildings basement and I should know for sure.

It also could have been the appearance of over carb in a lot of them because of being "burped" while warm and seeing of foam due to more co2 in headspace. Same situation with beers I refrigerated to test but only did for a day or less. I learned later that takes a couple days to absorb all the co2 into beer especially when coming out of warmer temps.

 

[MrHadack]

Haddack,

You are clearly a very knowledgeable brewer with the best of intentions.

Very kind of you to say. I'm sure you are as well.

But I assure you. You are feeding a troll. You may not want to read this or hear it, but you will come to this realization eventually on your own.

I don't care either way, to tell you the truth. If this is a legitimate problem to solve then I'm helping. If it is a troll, its not really a waste of my time because I'm also reviewing my own procedures in a mental exercise to make sure I know how to troubleshoot things correctly should they happen in the future. We're also coming up with dozens of potential sticking points that others may read in the course of the thread and say "Oh, I never thought of that. Perhaps that was my issue that one time when X happened a while back." A few people have posted things like that. They were helped as well.

There is always low hanging fruit in the forums-- the questions that ask "How do I know when fermentation is complete?" or "How does this recipe look to you?" Questions people can answer in a minute, feel good about themselves, and then abandon for the next one. If that's your preference, have at it. For others, that's mental masturbation that's just as easily solved with a Google search.

What's most amusing to me is the advice given so far. Overdose your water on Gypsum! Throw out all your equipment! If a piece of plastic touched an infection it can NVER. BE. USED. AGAIN! It's like the Simpsons episode from years ago when Homer is teaching Bart how to putt a golf ball:

HOMER: "Keep your head down, follow through."
[Bart putts and misses]
HOMER: "Okay, that didn't work. This time, move your head and don't follow through."

In the entire thread no one suggested a simple procedure that would isolate each stage into separate batches that would immediately indicate the point of failure. Sure, people suggested bottling and he didn't do that. That's frustrating. Honestly if he doesn't bottle this time either I won't bother anymore as well. But at least he now has a realistic reliable troubleshooting procedure.

Your ego might convince you can solve any brewing problem,

I can't. The Latin phrase under my username says as much.

but I assure you, this problem is brewing in the darkest reaches of a human mind.

Thank goodness, I worked very hard for my psych degrees; I was hoping they would be useful at some point.

Don't feed the trolls.

Who motivates the troll more: the ones with helpful solutions, or the one that returns every day to poke it with a stick?

 

[MrHadack]

I brewed a batch of tangerine ale back in January and tasted it a couple of times. It never really tasted right so I just let it sit in primary. Since you guys have convinced me the problem really isn't an infection, it must be OK, right? So I kegged it. And I bottled a 12-pack at the same time.

Still have a couple bottles from it that you'd care to send me? I'd like to taste and see what I can detect, if anything. It might help matters.

 

[LovesIPA]

Still have a couple bottles from it that you'd care to send me? I'd like to taste and see what I can detect, if anything. It might help matters.

I can do that. I was also thinking about it last night and I wish I'd thought of this earlier, but I can fill a couple of bottles straight from the keg and send them to anyone who wants to try and identify what this is. I have a couple full bottles in the fridge now. I'm going to let them sit out for a few days, then put them back in the fridge and see if they still retain the flavor. It hasn't always worked in the past for some reason.

Of course, with so many children clogging up this thread lately I might get in trouble for sending alcohol to minors.

Send me a PM if you're interested and you haven't been trolling.

 

[LovesIPA]

So this is pretty interesting:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/question-about-bru-n-water-464187/#post5970018

I never double-checked what Bru 'N water told me to add. Does it really not take into account boil-off or am I doing something wrong?

No trolls please....

 

[LovesIPA]

I stopped by an aquarium shop today and bought a TDS (total dissolved solids) meter.

One of these is straight, untreated tap water, and the other is reverse osmosis water from the Glacier water vending machine. Guess which one is which.

 

[LovesIPA]

Also I tasted the Orange ale yesterday. Good news maybe? Awful. I will be very interested to see how it tastes in the bottle after a week.

 

[pablosbrewing]

So this is pretty interesting:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/question-about-bru-n-water-464187/#post5970018

I never double-checked what Bru 'N water told me to add. Does it really not take into account boil-off or am I doing something wrong?

No trolls please....

You are fine - water treatment are done on pre-boil volumes.

Think of it this way - you are adjusting your water profile to match the water profile from the region the beer style comes from, or at least having enough of the right minerals for a happy mash.​

 

[LovesIPA]

That makes perfect sense. Thank you.


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[WayFrae]

Which water is which? I would hope the higher one isn't the glacier but with that lawsuit you never know haha

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[McGlothan]

Have you tried making a starter with a fresh vial of liquid yeast? Like California Ale or San Diego Super Yeast from White Labs?

 

[LovesIPA]

I've used liquid yeast, dry yeast, yeast propagated from slants and repitched slurry. Makes no difference.

Yes the reverse osmosis water shows 1 ppm dissolved solids. It would be pretty weird if tap water had almost zero dissolved solids.


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[McGlothan]

And you have replaced your beer line and faucet o-rings?

 

[LovesIPA]

And you have replaced your beer line and faucet o-rings?

Earlier in the thread, I was pretty well convinced that it wasn't the water, and therefore had to be some kind of infection. But nothing touches the beer that hasn't been cleaned well and soaked in star-san. I guess it could possibly be a handful of bugs hiding deep in the plastic fermenter buckets or auto-siphon (both of which have been soaked in bleach as well), but in the case of the last two beers I've kegged, they've gone from good to undrinkable after sitting in a keg for 24 hours. I could see a dramatic change like that if I pitched an entire vial of lacto. But it just doesn't make sense.

So I don't think it's an infection.

To answer your question, no I haven't replaced them. However, I don't even hook up the tap side to the keg while it's carbonating so it can't possibly cause an infection, even if it seemed like a plausible explanation.

 

[LovesIPA]

I did some reading on TDS meters. They don't detect non-charged particles like chlorine or chloramines. However, if a reverse osmosis system is filtering water down to 1 PPM total dissolved solids (total dissolved ions would be a more accurate term) then it's safe to assume that the system is working quite well and removing the chlorine/chloramines as well.

So it doesn't look like the water is the culprit either. I sure wish I had some fresh ideas.

 

[uatuba]

I did some reading on TDS meters. They don't detect non-charged particles like chlorine or chloramines. However, if a reverse osmosis system is filtering water down to 1 PPM total dissolved solids (total dissolved ions would be a more accurate term) then it's safe to assume that the system is working quite well and removing the chlorine/chloramines as well.

So it doesn't look like the water is the culprit either. I sure wish I had some fresh ideas.

Chloramine is not removed by reverse osmosis. My understanding is that it requires multistage carbon filtration, which is generally present in good RO units. Reverse osmosis would certainly remove other particles even if some part of the carbon setup wasn't working or was improperly designed.

If you still have the issue, use tap water and treat with a sulfite tablet...which is what I think I suggested.

 

[LovesIPA]

2. Use your standard profile you just mentioned. In fact, before you brew, post your grain bill, strike water and sparge water amounts, and the additions in grams that you plan to make to each so everyone can agree they are correct. (When you make the additions to the water, and they are all dissolved, perhaps you can take a sample and send to Ward labs for analysis.)

I was re-reading this (you know, as trolls often do...) and realized that I have yet to do this for tomorrow.

I'm brewing an amber ale. The first time I brewed this it was absolutely spectacular. I've made it twice since then and was forced to make some substitutions (FedEx lost my hops order from Bell's) and it was never as good. The last time I brewed it I had to dump it. You all know why.

Grain bill:

7 lbs 10 oz 2-row
1 lb 15 oz Munich (9L)
1 lb 10 oz Crystal 40
6 oz Special B

Mashing at 152 with 4.0 gallons of water. Sparging with 4.8 gallons.

I will be using distilled water. I'm using the "Amber Balanced" water profile in Bru N water. The targets are:

Ca: 55
Mg: 10
Na: 10
SO4: 75
Cl: 63
HCO3: 39

I am going to use these salts:

Salt / Mash (g) / Sparge
CaSO4 / 1.2 / 1.4
MgSO4 / 1.6 / 1.9
NaHCO3 / 0.6 / 0
CaCl2 / 2.0 / 2.4

Which should give me an actual water profile of:

Ca: 54.4
Mg: 10.4
Na: 10.9
SO4: 85.4
Cl: 63.8
HCO3: 29.8

It says my mash pH will be 5.2.

I have never submitted a sample for Ward labs before. I will have to research it and find out how much water, what container to use, etc. While I'm at it I'd like to submit a sample of the RO water that I normally use and see what I am really working with.

Hop schedule:

1.50 oz Willamette FWH
1.0 oz Willamette @ 10 min
.5 oz Cascade at 5 min
.5 oz Cascade at 0 min

Chill, pitch WLP001 into half of the wort and rehydrated US-05 into the other half.

Am I forgetting anything?

 

[Facinerous]

Hey man. I read through this stuff a day or two ago. Been pondering about it. Then a radio report hit involving the usual global warming stuff. Got me thinking though so I looked into it a bit.

Have you looked into carbonic acid? Its pretty interesting stuff. Here is a thread I found with another person in your exact same predicament. Basically its stating the buildup of carbonic acid in a container which has been force carbonated to quickly. I thought it was interesting. So I thought I would bring this to the table for you to consider.

 

[LovesIPA]

Hey man. I read through this stuff a day or two ago. Been pondering about it. Then a radio report hit involving the usual global warming stuff. Got me thinking though so I looked into it a bit.

Have you looked into carbonic acid? Its pretty interesting stuff. Here is a thread I found with another person in your exact same predicament. Basically its stating the buildup of carbonic acid in a container which has been force carbonated to quickly. I thought it was interesting. So I thought I would bring this to the table for you to consider.

That's really interesting, thank you for finding it and posting it. It certainly seems to fit with what I'm seeing.

I force carb at about 30 psi for 24 hours and then dial it back down to 10 psi for a couple days before I start serving.

I will have to try carbing slower and seeing if it makes a difference.

 

[LovesIPA]

I brewed a Bell's Two Hearted Ale clone on 1/25 of this year. Kegged it on 2/13 and... you know the rest. I took it out of the keezer and it's been sitting at room temp for about three weeks gradually going flat because of a slightly leaky gas side poppet. I just hooked it back up and have some interesting results.

First, you would never be able to guess this was an IPA. There is no hop aroma to speak of. It's more like a pale ale hop flavor/aroma wise. The off-flavor is also VERY muted. It affects the flavor of the beer but it's nowhere as strong. I've never tasted astringency that I know of, but it's literally the first thing that popped into my head when I tasted it.

I'm going to let it go completely flat and then re-carbonate it.

This is looking less and less like an infection issue.

 

[c3hutson]

First, what processes are you referring to?

Second, if I use my tap water, dark beers come out fine but light beers don't taste right. What should I do if I don't modify the water profile - brew only stouts and porters?

Sounds like my city water in Kalamazoo. Tons of residual alkalinity. The dark grains get the pH closer to what is optimal for the mash/fermentation. For light beers, cut your water 50% with RO water and adjust down to 5.2-5.4 pH with lactic acid.




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[Hoppity]

Have you bottled any yet? Maybe I missed something, but it could help isolate the problem.

 

[LovesIPA]

Yes I bottled part of a batch a few days ago. Haven't tried one yet.


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[WayFrae]

is the RO water you tested fresh from the machine or is it RO water you had left over from a previous batch? The reason I ask is they probably fixed the machines since that lawsuit so the beer you made previously could have had the bad RO water.

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[MrHadack]

Was a bit under the weather over the weekend so I'm just getting caught up again now.

LovesIPA, Looks like those Glacier machines might be clearing up based on the test you did with the TDS meter. Though, like you said, TDS doesn't pick up on a few things. Regardless, I'm close to feeling like we can rule out the water. But not just yet.

As for the grain bill and additions you posted: all that looks perfectly fine to me. After clearing up why you used all that gypsum in one of that batches (bad advice from someone) I know you have all that figured out so don't think there is any concern about your additions any longer.

So so far we can rule out recipe, water, and additions.

Facinerous, nice input. That thread certainly includes a lot of the buzz words used to describe the issue here:
-Happens only after the gas is added in the keg
-Undrinkable harshness, bitter / sour

LovesIPA, based on the above, do you think we should try carbing each keg differently once we get to that stage?

 

[LovesIPA]

Can you please take a look at this post I made in the other I made about possibly having too high of a mash efficiency? I am tempted to ask the mods (do we have any mods?) to merge the two threads because they are basically on the same topic now.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/efficiency-too-high-464223/#post5974272

I listed every batch I brewed since last September and the results. Maybe one of you detectives can find the pattern.

 

[LovesIPA]

Was a bit under the weather over the weekend so I'm just getting caught up again now.

I was beginning to worry about you... you're my shining beacon of hope at this point! lol

LovesIPA, Looks like those Glacier machines might be clearing up based on the test you did with the TDS meter. Though, like you said, TDS doesn't pick up on a few things. Regardless, I'm close to feeling like we can rule out the water. But not just yet.

In the "list of batches" that I just linked to, I want to point out that I brewed three essentially identical versions of the same Amber ale recipe. Two came out fine, the third had the off-flavor.

As for the grain bill and additions you posted: all that looks perfectly fine to me. After clearing up why you used all that gypsum in one of that batches (bad advice from someone) I know you have all that figured out so don't think there is any concern about your additions any longer.

That's awesome. The first three pages of this thread were going back and forth over "loading up the water with crazy salt additions".

LovesIPA, based on the above, do you think we should try carbing each keg differently once we get to that stage?

I assume you mean force carbing vs. natural carbing? If so, it's going to be awfully difficult to naturally carb 2.5 gallons of beer in a 5 gallon keg. Too much headspace.

 

[LovesIPA]

Also, what do you think about using RO water for this batch if I check it with the TDS meter?

 

[Yooper]

Since we can't play nice, and this thread requires moderator intervention daily, we're done here.

Remember the Golden Rule, folks. Thanks.