If This Doesn't Make You Angry...

[mr x]

Done and done. I don't see why this is so hard.

It's too many years of playing all those crazy video games. You wind up on a lifelong rage, with or without the badge. lol

 

[Evan!]

While I can agree with the checking things out, the only thing that is going to tell you is if they have been caught before. Im the type of person that always prepares for the worse. You can never assume that the guy with no criminal back ground is what it seems. People flip out for no reason.

Oh, for chrissakes, Ryan! By your logic, every effin' traffic stop has the potential to turn into a bloody shootout, so we'd better start getting the SWAT team to pull people over for speeding. Are you serious?!

Preparing for the worst makes little sense when "the worst" is not very probable, and said preparation for the worst has the potential to make things worse. There's a big difference between preparing for the worst possible outcome and the worst probable outcome. Man, hell, it's technically "possible" that issuing a parking ticket to someone could turn into a gunfight, but would you really bring out the SWAT in an APC to write someone up for an expired meter? No.

Just because something is technically possible doesn't mean it's probable.

 

[kornkob]

Just because something is technically possible doesn't mean it's probable.

BINGO.


And SWAT is all about assuming the worst and applying deadly force fastest and mostest.

 

[Evan!]

It's too many years of playing all those crazy video games. You wind up on a lifelong rage, with or without the badge. lol

Um, actually, people who played medal of honor have no more of a propensity for violence than those who played myst. Check it. One's propensity to violence is actually due mostly to family violence, not video games.

 

[kornkob]

Um, actually, people who played medal of honor have no more of a propensity for violence than those who played myst. Check it. One's propensity to violence is actually due mostly to family violence, not video games.

Evan! Get out of my head and stop channeling me.

 

[mr x]

That was sarcasm.

 

[Ryanh1801]

Oh, for chrissakes, Ryan! By your logic, every effin' traffic stop has the potential to turn into a bloody shootout, so we'd better start getting the SWAT team to pull people over for speeding. Are you serious?!

No, but that is why police are taught that their is no such thing as a "regular" Traffic stop. Ok well I got to go for a bike ride, ill continue to debate when I get back,

 

[Evan!]

Evan! Get out of my head and stop channeling me.

Damn, sorry...see ya, Kornkob's Brain...

 

[Evan!]

No, but that is why police are taught that their is no such thing as a "regular" Traffic stop. Ok well I got to go for a bike ride, ill continue to debate when I get back,

As such, police officers should be taught that there is no such thing as a regular misdemeanor drug warrant service.

 

[PeteOz77]

Screw that. If someone is breaking down my door, I am not going to sit there and wait for him to explain his reasoning before taking action. This stuff happens so fast.

Lets assume for a second that this was not the police. Lets assume that it was a couple of cracked out thugs coming to kill him. Should he wait? Should he sit there and make sure it is not someone peacefully kicking his door down? No, no way, screw that. If I am in this kids shoes I shoot too. You don't want me shooting through my door, don't try knocking it down...especially after dark.

I of course feel terrible for the officer and his family. I mentioned it in my first post. There was no reason for him to die. It should have never happened. However, just because it should have never happened, does not mean I blame the man defending his home. It is fully on the intruders and the people who sent them there.

Effing shame. I hope someday I live in a world where this atrocity is a part of history.

And where do you draw the line? What if it's your neighbour's 5 year old throwing a trantrum and hammering against your door with his feet? "Gee I'm sorry your child is dead, but I though someone was trying to break in and steal my CD player"

Two things I was taught in my GUN SAFETY class at age 15 were.

Never point your gun at anything you do not intend to KILL.
Always be 100% certain of your target.

My views have changed as I grow older (and live in a different country) and there is NOTHING I would use dealy force to protect, except my life and the life of my family. The insurance company will replace anything I have stolen, so if the crack head breaks in and steals some of my stuff, I won't be happy about it, but I am not about kill, or be killed over my CD collection.

 

[PeteOz77]

Furthermore, I'd only hope that the same standard of "ANY time you pull a trigger, you need to be CERTAIN of your target, and their intent" would be applied to cops as well. Apparently, however, it is not. The two stories are very similar, but the roles were reversed. One man may face lethal injection, the other one doesn't even get charged. But I'm sure Ryan, et al, would respond with something like, "he's got a badge, he can do no wrong".
.

+5

I could not agree more. As a matter of fact I would definitely hold the police and themilitary to a MUCH higher standard than a normal citizen, as they have been trained in how to deal with these type of scenarios.

ANY police officer or soldier that fires blindly through a door, without knowing his target is displaying incompetence and negligence and should be charged with a crime. He should lose his job AND GO TO JAIL even if he doesn't hit anyone. If he DOES shoot someone blindly and they die, he should be charged with manslaughter.. and go to jail.

 

[ThaDutchMasta]

+5

I could not agree more. As a matter of fact I would definitely hold the police and themilitary to a MUCH higher standard than a normal citizen, as they have been trained in how to deal with these type of scenarios.

ANY police officer or soldier that fires blindly through a door, without knowing his target is displaying incompetence and negligence and should be charged with a crime. He should lose his job AND GO TO JAIL even if he doesn't hit anyone. If he DOES shoot someone blindly and they die, he should be charged with manslaughter.. and go to jail.

+1 exactly...i can't believe that even happened

 

[PeteOz77]

But, again, he didn't just shoot blindly through the door. He fired on the guy after he'd broken down half his door and was crawling through the bottom half. I think it's safe to say that when I guy is banging down your door and crawling through the bottom, more often than not it's a criminal and not a cop. I mean, I doubt that that's in the SWAT training manual.

You have a good point, and if that IS how it happened (police have been known to conjure up a story or two, to protect themselves and their "Brothers"), then it's a lot easier to understand how a scared little man could panic, and still shoot before he KNOWS his life is in danger.

I'm glad it wasn't me and I didn't have to make a split second decision that would change my life forever. The blame for the entire situation definitely lies on the heavy handed tactics used by the Gestapo.

One thing I do find interesting about a lot of these discussions (every forum on the net, not just here), is how many people say "I would shoot the bastards if they broke into my house". It takes a LOT of balls to pull a trigger and kill another human being.

I have never been on that end of the gun in a situtaion like that (thank God!), but I have been on the other end. I have had a gun pulled on me in rage and I was **** scared.... Everything changes when the gun comes out, whether you are holding it, or having it pointed at you.

Watch "Unforgiven" and you might agree. Besides being a FANTASTIC movie, it takes away the "hero" aspect of the gunslinger in the old west and personalises it and deglorifies it, back to what it is.. "It's a hell of a thing, killin' a man. Take away all he's got, and all he's ever gonna have."

 

[cubbies]

I understand where you are coming from Pete, but I mean this is obviously completely different. A kid having a tantrum on your porch is gonna by like somebody knocking loud. This was someone breaking down the door. I am pretty sure you would know the difference pretty quick.

Of course you are right. Sitting here at my keyboard, I say I would shoot. Maybe I would, maybe I wouldn't. However, I do know that regardless of what I would actually do, I see no fault in what this guy did.

I am sure this guy would gladly lose his CD collection instead of getting in a gun fight, but when someone is breaking in through your front door you don't have time to find out exactly what their intentions are. Like I said, it happens very fast. You have to make a decision. The way I see it, you have two choices. Let it play out and see what happens, or act. I don't think I would be of the "let it play out" crowd, and I don't frown on this guy for being that way either.

 

[PeteOz77]

While I can agree with the checking things out, the only thing that is going to tell you is if they have been caught before. Im the type of person that always prepares for the worse. You can never assume that the guy with no criminal back ground is what it seems. People flip out for no reason.

Seems to me that they knew ALL about him, since they had broken in previously and rummaged through his things..... I doubt they found much in the way of an arsenal or proceeds of a drug trafficking setup.

 

[PeteOz77]

One's propensity to violence is actually due mostly to family violence, not video games.

And/or being good and liquored up!! I know too many people that should be branded permanently with "Instant *******, just add alcohol"

 

[PeteOz77]

The way I see it, you have two choices. Let it play out and see what happens, or act. I don't think I would be of the "let it play out" crowd, and I don't frown on this guy for being that way either.

Agreed. We can all thank (whomever we worship as that magical omnipotent being in the sky), that we will most likely never be in such a situation. And if we ever do find ourselves having to make that split second decision, I hope we all make the right decision... whatever that happens to be. I don't frown on this guy either, especially because we don't really know all of the "facts". If the door was broken down, and the guy was crawling though, ther poor bloke only had a few seconds to make the right decision, or possibly lose his life. I say IF that is the case, he erred on the side of good judgement. If he shot through a door at an unknown target because he though they were coming in to possibly hurt him.. he erred on the side of bad judgement.

WOW! I really need to try to keep up with these great discussions better so i don't have to reply 6 times in a row and take up a whole page to myself....

 

[xcrusader]

I disagree. A man halfway through your door while you are home is perpetrating a home invasion. An ARMED home invasion in this case. More than enough reason to believe that you are in serious fear for your life and safety. Had this not been a cop on a NKW, the homeowner probably would already have his weapon back and at least one cop would have given him an unofficial 'attaboy'

If the cops had announced themslves, or executed a proper entry to the home (instead of trying to scramble in the bottom of a half destroyed door) this would have been resolved without firing a shot.

Your 'stealing a tv' and 'running out the back door' straw men are not relevant to the discussion. That is NOT what was occurring, based on facts given in this case (and in mayother cases that can be sited in which LEOs and innocent citizens exchanged fire over NKW). Furthermore your statement is not factually accurate as stated since such distintions vary from in different juristictions.

First, I must start by saying, "stated by a true pothead"

Second, "unofficial attaboy" is UNOFFICIAL!!!

Third, Oh yeah if the door would have swung open and I would have been woken up with yelling, the first thing I would have thought was.. gee I'm not going to grab my gun because someone is yelling and screaming. The underlying point here is why were they serving a warrant in the middle of the night?

Fourth, I didn't say "stealing a tv and running out the back door", I said you can't shoot someone for stealing your TV. I also said, you can't shoot somebody who is running out the door(shooting in the back). If you do, you better have a good reason (i.e. running toward your family). You say this point is invalid, well if the rules of self defense reguarding personal gun use in your home in the United States offend you, possibly you should seek another living situation.

It is your God given right to disagree with me. When this happens to you, I'll be sure to send you a large box filled with soap on a ropes for your many years in prison.

I will state again, obviously there is some shady stuff goin on, however, when a cop comes on scene and sees his buddy dead on the front porch, who are you going to believe. The dead guy on the PORCH, or the guy with the gun, who enjoys smoking pot recreationally. Which by the way, IS ILLEGAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know it is not a big deal at all. I have lots of friends who "partake". I choose not to because well here is a good example. I also want to have the best job I can, and if I piss hot all the time, I will never get ahead in life.

Thats my .02 take it or leave it.

 

[carls47807]

why exactly is pot an illegal substance again?

i think our kids kids will be reading about how pot was illegal back in early 21st century, and realize how ignorant it was. like prohibition.

 

[BuffaloSabresBrewer]

Thats my .02 take it or leave it.

I'll leave it.

 

[TxBrew]

The fact remains, you cant shoot somebody for breaking down your door and trying to get in.... you can shoot somebody who is in your house and trying to cause harm to you or your family.... you also cant shoot somebody for stealing your tv or trying to run out the door. If you shoot somebody in the back, you better have a real good story to tell the cops. Don't get me wrong, I feel for the guy, and obviously there is some shady stuff going on, but he did kill a cop who wasn't in his house yet.

Maybe in IL. Texas has the Castle Law to protect our home and assets. We can legally use lethal force to defend home, office and property.

 

[RICLARK]

Maybe in IL. Texas has the Castle Law to protect our home and assets. We can legally use lethal force to defend home, office and property.

Just another long line of reasons I will be moving to texas in a couple of years.:rockin:

 

[xcrusader]

Maybe in IL. Texas has the Castle Law to protect our home and assets. We can legally use lethal force to defend home, office and property.

Yeah thats true, and it does suck. Honestly, I would love it if I could get a concealed carry license, because if I was at my college when somebody started shooting, I would run to the fight w/ my glock in hand!

 

[BlindLemonLars]

I'll leave it.

Oh man, you beat me to that response!

 

[kornkob]

removed. I let his angst and silly straw men draw me out.


I'll take the high road and kill my reply.

 

[BrewBob]

I dont think some people understand the extent to which their rights are being violated by this drug war. It is funny to me to see some actually defending police tactics. When they can bust into a any persons house that they suspect to be growing pot, without even a knock on the door, they can bust into YOUR house, no matter what their real intentions are or you are doing something illegal or not. Your house is not safe and police, at any moment, can break your door down.

Everyone has a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness was what i thought they said...

 

[Evan!]

I dont think some people understand the extent to which their rights are being violated by this drug war. It is funny to me to see some actually defending police tactics. When they can bust into a any persons house that they suspect to be growing pot, without even a knock on the door, they can bust into YOUR house, no matter what their real intentions are or you are doing something illegal or not. Your house is not safe and police, at any moment, can break your door down.

Everyone has a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness was what i thought they said...

Yeah, it's all fun and games until your local SWAT team breaks down YOUR door because the got the wrong address for a misdemeanor drug warrant, and they end up shooting your dog in the head, burning your house down and taking you to jail in your skivvies, and won't so much as apologize to you when they figure out their mistake.

I wonder how many of these creeps like Joe Arpaio would still support these tactics if they had it happen to them.

 

[ohiobrewtus]

I missed this until now. I'm not going to get into all of the drama that has evolved, but only comment on the OP.

That's f'ed up. I can see them charging the guy with something or other, but to make it a capital offense that could get teh death sentence? That's ridiculous.

 

[MikeFlynn74]

I will state again, obviously there is some shady stuff goin on, however, when a cop comes on scene and sees his buddy dead on the front porch, who are you going to believe. The dead guy on the PORCH, or the guy with the gun, who enjoys smoking pot recreationally. Which by the way, IS ILLEGAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know it is not a big deal at all. I have lots of friends who "partake". I choose not to because well here is a good example. I also want to have the best job I can, and if I piss hot all the time, I will never get ahead in life.

AHAHAHA I bet the people who sign your paycheck and own your ass piss hot.

 

[MikeFlynn74]

One thing that makes me so furious is Christian Right who thinks there is something wrong with pot. Its been said before if you walked out of the jungle with a plant that could do what pot does without the stigma you would win the nobel prize.

Yet pot remains illegal