If This Doesn't Make You Angry...

[Evan!]

I mean, it was stupid to shoot through the door but in a panic the guy probably wasn't thinking clearly. He was most likely angry and on edge from the prior incident.

But, again, he didn't just shoot blindly through the door. He fired on the guy after he'd broken down half his door and was crawling through the bottom half. I think it's safe to say that when I guy is banging down your door and crawling through the bottom, more often than not it's a criminal and not a cop. I mean, I doubt that that's in the SWAT training manual.

 

[Ryanh1801]

But I'm sure Ryan, et al, would respond with something like, "he's got a badge, he can do no wrong".

Thanks for responding for me. I have never nor will I ever say LEO can do no wrong, they are human just like the rest of us. But, it does get very annoying that you dig up any article you can find past or present, (the last one you posted up was almost a year old). Just to either bash of LEO or the Gov. I mean seriously dude, if you don't like it do something about it, don't continually ***** on a forum.

Well im still hungover and thats all I feel like typing out right now. Im going to get lunch.

 

[mr x]

I mean seriously dude, if you don't like it do something about it.

Ryan Frederick did it for us.

 

[Evan!]

Thanks for responding for me. I have never nor will I ever say LEO can do no wrong, they are human just like the rest of us. But, it does get very annoying that you dig up any article you can find past or present, (the last one you posted up was almost a year old). Just to either bash of LEO or the Gov. I mean seriously dude, if you don't like it do something about it, don't continually ***** on a forum.

Well im still hungover and thats all I feel like typing out right now. Im going to get lunch.

Does it really matter how old it is? I'm sorry that it annoys you that I am able to dig up articles that don't make the government look good, but I'm not setting out with the purpose of simply bashing the government. There are injustices that take place every day at the hands of the state---some of them are more egregious than others---and I'm not just "cherry picking" articles. The use of SWAT teams to serve misdemeanor drug warrants has been steadily rising as municipalities get federal grant money for anti-terrorism---they get their new toys, and they wanna use 'em, so they use 'em for pennyante sh*t like this. The article I posted was only one incident in a growing list of these raids, and I feel the need to call attention not only to the isolated injustice of this one incident, but to the overall problem of militarization of the civilian police force. You could claim I'm cherry picking just to paint the State and the LEO in a bad light, but it would be disingenuous---because there's no shortage of incidents out there exactly like this (I linked to a nice list of them previously).

Furthermore, I'm not simply "bitching on a forum", I'm calling attention to the injustices that our population faces in a public setting. Not only that, but you really have no idea what I do outside of HBT with regards to combating the issue (for example, writing my representatives, talking to local politicians, etc.), so you have absolutely no authority to speak on the matter of what I do outside of HBT. If you don't agree with my stance, address my issues themselves (or just ignore me), but don't tell me to "stop bitching". I will continue to "*****", and yell, and scream, and cry out, until as many people as possible know about the injustices that are committed. If it pisses you off, if you'd rather I shut my mouth and keep my head down and do what I'm told and wait till it's someone I know and love that is the victim, then I suggest again that you just ignore me---because I won't be doing that anytime soon. Cory Maye's death sentence was overturned in large part because of the support from people like me---and mainly Radley Balko, who almost single-handedly saved that man's life.

My comment about you was uncalled for, and I apologize---but I honestly don't get your almost kneejerk deference to The State when it comes to pretty much anything. I'll personally admit that the State is right on some things, and I'm not an idealogue who is against government regardless of the situation---but automatic deference to the state is as bad, or worse, as automatic dismissal of the state. I don't know where you get it, I don't know quite what background has led you to where you are, so I won't speculate---I'll just say that a little healthy skepticism when it comes to our exalted leaders is never a bad thing.

 

[xcrusader]

The fact remains, you cant shoot somebody for breaking down your door and trying to get in.... you can shoot somebody who is in your house and trying to cause harm to you or your family.... you also cant shoot somebody for stealing your tv or trying to run out the door. If you shoot somebody in the back, you better have a real good story to tell the cops. Don't get me wrong, I feel for the guy, and obviously there is some shady stuff going on, but he did kill a cop who wasn't in his house yet.

 

[kornkob]

The fact remains, you cant shoot somebody for breaking down your door and trying to get in.... you can shoot somebody who is in your house and trying to cause harm to you or your family.... you also cant shoot somebody for stealing your tv or trying to run out the door. If you shoot somebody in the back, you better have a real good story to tell the cops. Don't get me wrong, I feel for the guy, and obviously there is some shady stuff going on, but he did kill a cop who wasn't in his house yet.

I disagree. A man halfway through your door while you are home is perpetrating a home invasion. An ARMED home invasion in this case. More than enough reason to believe that you are in serious fear for your life and safety. Had this not been a cop on a NKW, the homeowner probably would already have his weapon back and at least one cop would have given him an unofficial 'attaboy'

If the cops had announced themslves, or executed a proper entry to the home (instead of trying to scramble in the bottom of a half destroyed door) this would have been resolved without firing a shot.

Your 'stealing a tv' and 'running out the back door' straw men are not relevant to the discussion. That is NOT what was occurring, based on facts given in this case (and in mayother cases that can be sited in which LEOs and innocent citizens exchanged fire over NKW). Furthermore your statement is not factually accurate as stated since such distintions vary from in different juristictions.

 

[Ryanh1801]

Does it really matter how old it is? I'm sorry that it annoys you that I am able to dig up articles that don't make the government look good, but I'm not setting out with the purpose of simply bashing the government. There are injustices that take place every day at the hands of the state---some of them are more egregious than others---and I'm not just "cherry picking" articles. The use of SWAT teams to serve misdemeanor drug warrants has been steadily rising as municipalities get federal grant money for anti-terrorism---they get their new toys, and they wanna use 'em, so they use 'em for pennyante sh*t like this. The article I posted was only one incident in a growing list of these raids, and I feel the need to call attention not only to the isolated injustice of this one incident, but to the overall problem of militarization of the civilian police force. You could claim I'm cherry picking just to paint the State and the LEO in a bad light, but it would be disingenuous---because there's no shortage of incidents out there exactly like this (I linked to a nice list of them previously).

The thing is Drug warrants are going to happen, because drugs are still illegal. Swat teams need to serve them for the simple fact that is what they are trained to do. Drug warrants are some of the most dangerous ones they can serve, because these people are for the most part not in a correct state of mind. They are dealing with people that would just assume kill LEO, than go to jail. No knock warrants are a most in some cases, but others they are un called for, and from what I have read about the above article this was one case that it was not needed. But at the same time who knows what the police where told.

Furthermore, I'm not simply "bitching on a forum", I'm calling attention to the injustices that our population faces in a public setting. Not only that, but you really have no idea what I do outside of HBT with regards to combating the issue (for example, writing my representatives, talking to local politicians, etc.), so you have absolutely no authority to speak on the matter of what I do outside of HBT. If you don't agree with my stance, address my issues themselves (or just ignore me), but don't tell me to "stop bitching". I will continue to "*****", and yell, and scream, and cry out, until as many people as possible know about the injustices that are committed. If it pisses you off, if you'd rather I shut my mouth and keep my head down and do what I'm told and wait till it's someone I know and love that is the victim, then I suggest again that you just ignore me---because I won't be doing that anytime soon. Cory Maye's death sentence was overturned in large part because of the support from people like me---and mainly Radley Balko, who almost single-handedly saved that man's life.

I hope you do write your representatives, I know I do on issues I feel strongly about, gun control mostly. And cases like this one.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51417

Two Border Patrol officers that where sentenced to jail for doing their job.

 

[cubbies]

Swat teams need to serve them...

I disagree. This can, and should, be taken care of by the police. How hard is it to follow the guy home from work and stop him in his driveway? Busting down the doors in the cover of darkness with fully loaded automatic rifles, is the last way a situation like this should be handled, not the first.

 

[Ryanh1801]

I disagree. This can, and should, be taken care of by the police. How hard is it to follow the guy home from work and stop him in his driveway? Busting down the doors in the cover of darkness with fully loaded automatic rifles, is the last way a situation like this should be handled, not the first.

Well contrary to popular belief swat teams are used to save lives not take them. using a big force discourages people from resisting. That same guy you follow home and stop in his drive way can feel that with one cop he has a chance of getting away. I would put money of that if swat would have been used in the first story non of this would have ever happened, but that is just speculation.

 

[mr x]

because these people are for the most part not in a correct state of mind.

Are they still showing 'Reefer Madness' as training material? rotflmfao

 

[Ryanh1801]

Are they still showing 'Reefer Madness' as training material? rotflmfao

No, but can you honestly argue that under the influence of any drug, weather it be weed, alcohol or some narcotic, that you are in the same state of mind that you are when stone sober?

 

[c.n.budz]

No, but can you honestly argue that under the influence of any drug, weather it be weed, alcohol or some narcotic, that you are in the same state of mind that you are when stone sober?

Definitely not the same state of mind. But, not all dealers are also users. haven't you ever heard the phrase "Don't get high on your own supply"

And while your not in the same state of mind while smoking weed as when your sober, chances are you're more likely to lose your gun than start firing it in a drug induced frenzy(crack, meth, coke, PCP being totally different stories)

 

[Evan!]

The thing is Drug warrants are going to happen, because drugs are still illegal.

That's not the issue at hand. This isn't a debate about drug legalization, it's about how civilian police approach the enforcement of the laws.

Swat teams need to serve them for the simple fact that is what they are trained to do. Drug warrants are some of the most dangerous ones they can serve, because these people are for the most part not in a correct state of mind. They are dealing with people that would just assume kill LEO, than go to jail. No knock warrants are a most in some cases, but others they are un called for, and from what I have read about the above article this was one case that it was not needed. But at the same time who knows what the police where told.

This is simply untrue. They have the ability to check the background on these folks. They also have the ability to think rationally and clearly, beforehand, about what is really probably going to happen. And if you can sit here and tell me that an officer has cause to fear for his life when serving a warrant to someone with absolutely no history of violence, and the warrant is for suspicion of a few pot plants...then I would call into question your seriousness and your judgment. The fact is, pot doesn't make you violent, it makes you lazy and hungry. I agree, if they do a background check and the suspect is some crazed redneck with several gun convictions and a history of assault, and he's suspected of having a meth lab, then yeah, saddle up the SWAT team, by all means. But some DISCRETION needs to be exercised here. Common f*ckin' sense tells you that serving a misdemeanor drug warrant on a suspect with no history of violence does not necessitate a no-knock SWAT raid. And yeah, we do know, pretty much, what the police were told in this case: he might be growing some cannabis plants in his garage (actually Japanese Maples, but who's counting). Still doesn't call for a SWAT team home invasion. All I'm asking for is discretion and judgment. Some warrant service episodes clearly require a more militarized approach---but so many of these raids are either on the wrong house, or on nonviolent misdemeanor drug suspects.

I hope you do write your representatives, I know I do on issues I feel strongly about, gun control mostly. And cases like this one.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51417

Two Border Patrol officers that where sentenced to jail for doing their job.

I absolutely do. re: gun control, I couldn't believe the garbage I was hearing on the radio yesterday WRT Wash, DC's handgun ban being overturned. I've never, ever, ever understood that law---it's not like the criminals are gonna get a goddamned permit, so if they want a gun, they'll get a gun. The only people who suffer are the law-abiding citizens who just want to protect themselves in one of the most dangerous cities in America.

That's a sad story you linked, too---silly that an administrative mistake like not reporting weapon discharge would land him in prison.

 

[mr x]

Maybe I'd be in a better state of mind. I know a lot of people who are. It's been my experience that alcohol is a far worse mood wrecking drug than weed. Yet when police go to the door for domestic disputes at 3 in the morning, and they know the individuals are boozed, they don't show up with the 101st airborne division. And I know - I grew up in a small town, and my father was a lifelong police officer.

 

[kornkob]

And cases like this one.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51417

Two Border Patrol officers that where sentenced to jail for doing their job.

False. They are up on charges because they did NOT do their jobs.

They:

a) pursued when they are not supposed to. their job specifically requires a supervisor to authorize pursuit.

b) failed to report that he fired his weapon

c) policed up his brass which was ridding the scene of any evidence he had fired his weapon

d) fired on a 'suspect', who was running away, that he had not identified as being currently armed or even the shooter.

This cop's actions are not those of an innocent professional. It stinks of a coverup. It smells of a situation where some cops went off and did their own thing and then when it careened off the rails, they did what they could to minimize their exposure.

Also-- if this tips it at all: this was a Texas jury. With Texans on it.

Police should ALWAYS be held to a higher standard specifically b ecause they are given authority to curtail our civil rights.

 

[richab]

...then something's wrong with you.

You right that does piss me off, we need some gun control......

 

[Ryanh1801]

This is simply untrue. They have the ability to check the background on these folks. They also have the ability to think rationally and clearly, beforehand, about what is really probably going to happen. And if you can sit here and tell me that an officer has cause to fear for his life when serving a warrant to someone with absolutely no history of violence, and the warrant is for suspicion of a few pot plants...then I would call into question your seriousness and your judgment. The fact is, pot doesn't make you violent, it makes you lazy and hungry. I agree, if they do a background check and the suspect is some crazed redneck with several gun convictions and a history of assault, and he's suspected of having a meth lab, then yeah, saddle up the SWAT team, by all means. But some DISCRETION needs to be exercised here. Common f*ckin' sense tells you that serving a misdemeanor drug warrant on a suspect with no history of violence does not necessitate a no-knock SWAT raid. And yeah, we do know, pretty much, what the police were told in this case: he might be growing some cannabis plants in his garage (actually Japanese Maples, but who's counting). Still doesn't call for a SWAT team home invasion. All I'm asking for is discretion and judgment. Some warrant service episodes clearly require a more militarized approach---but so many of these raids are either on the wrong house, or on nonviolent misdemeanor drug suspects.
(

While I can agree with the checking things out, the only thing that is going to tell you is if they have been caught before. Im the type of person that always prepares for the worse. You can never assume that the guy with no criminal back ground is what it seems. People flip out for no reason.

 

[cubbies]

That same guy you follow home and stop in his drive way can feel that with one cop he has a chance of getting away.

Who said anything about one cop? I certainly wouldn't recommend sending one cop to follow the guy home and confront him. I also wouldn't recommend a team of fully armed "soldiers" busting down his door during the night. I would recommend something in between. Say, a couple of cops in his driveway, plus another one follows him home to block the way he came in. Then, the only way he is getting away is on foot. I don't see how this doesn't make sense.

This is actually reminding me of the other thread that was on here a week or two ago. Some guy on "Cops" got busted for growing weed. He also had a bunch of homebrewing stuff in his house and the cops busted him for it.

The way it went down was the Cops were waiting for him when he got home. He pulled up, the cop said I am officer so and so, the guy said hi I' so and so, and the cop said hi so and so you're under arrest. Done and done. I don't see why this is so hard.

 

[Evan!]

Just in case you weren't sufficiently disturbed by the OP story, I wanted to relate what I consider to be one of the most horrible incidents perpetrated by SWAT raids. The warrant was for failing to show up in court for a traffic violation. Some CI had claimed that the man in question had some armor piercing rounds. So they bring in the SWAT team in Joe Arpaio's APC. They fire tear gas into the house, catch it on fire and completely destroy the place. Then, SWAT chases their 10-month old puppy back into the burning house to die---and laugh about it as the owners lose their sh*t watching their dog die. I can't think of anything so wrong. Oh, and the kop-killer rounds in question? Never found 'em.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of stories of SWAT raiders shooting suspects' dogs as a matter of procedure. In one incident, a member of the SWAT team cut through a neighbor's yard to get to the back of the house in question, and when he did, the neighbor's dog did what guard dogs do: tried to attack the officer. So the officer shot and killed the dog. Jesus!

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Well contrary to popular belief swat teams are used to save lives not take them. using a big force discourages people from resisting.

I don't know about that. It's one thing to use a big force to cover all possibilities, you know, watch the windows, watch the doors, block in his car, etc.

That's very different than using a large force to come at you like a mob... cuz I'll tell you, if I had 5 or 6 people coming at me and a gun in my hand, I can't say I wouldn't shoot.

Even if they identified themselves as cops, I might decide to not believe them and shoot anyway. Why? Because I'm a law-abiding citizen and I have no reason to expect that the police would be busting down my door. So as far as I'm concerned, anybody who busts down my door claiming to be a cop is probably lying to gain entry... Maybe I'm paranoid, but what is more far-fetched? Thinking that the cops are going to send a swat team to the house of a law abiding citizen? Or that a career criminal might think that posing as a cop would be a good way to gain access to a residence?

Which do you think is more believable?

Now, I'm really not a whack-job. I've had cops knock on my door countless times. Every time they have, I've been helpful and respectful and friendly and they have been as well. I've never had a really bad run-in with a cop. My encounters have pretty much all been positive. Because I'm a law-abiding citizen! So yeah, I might not believe someone who claimed to have a search warrant or to be a cop who was trying to bust down my door.

On the other hand, if they knocked and politely told me they had a warrant, I'd walk them around and personally show them everything I have... they'd find a water bong, 5 gallons of mead, 10 gallons of beer, and maybe 10 mason jars filled with pipe tobacco. Big deal.

 

[mr x]

Done and done. I don't see why this is so hard.

It's too many years of playing all those crazy video games. You wind up on a lifelong rage, with or without the badge. lol

 

[Evan!]

While I can agree with the checking things out, the only thing that is going to tell you is if they have been caught before. Im the type of person that always prepares for the worse. You can never assume that the guy with no criminal back ground is what it seems. People flip out for no reason.

Oh, for chrissakes, Ryan! By your logic, every effin' traffic stop has the potential to turn into a bloody shootout, so we'd better start getting the SWAT team to pull people over for speeding. Are you serious?!

Preparing for the worst makes little sense when "the worst" is not very probable, and said preparation for the worst has the potential to make things worse. There's a big difference between preparing for the worst possible outcome and the worst probable outcome. Man, hell, it's technically "possible" that issuing a parking ticket to someone could turn into a gunfight, but would you really bring out the SWAT in an APC to write someone up for an expired meter? No.

Just because something is technically possible doesn't mean it's probable.

 

[kornkob]

Just because something is technically possible doesn't mean it's probable.

BINGO.


And SWAT is all about assuming the worst and applying deadly force fastest and mostest.

 

[Evan!]

It's too many years of playing all those crazy video games. You wind up on a lifelong rage, with or without the badge. lol

Um, actually, people who played medal of honor have no more of a propensity for violence than those who played myst. Check it. One's propensity to violence is actually due mostly to family violence, not video games.

 

[kornkob]

Um, actually, people who played medal of honor have no more of a propensity for violence than those who played myst. Check it. One's propensity to violence is actually due mostly to family violence, not video games.

Evan! Get out of my head and stop channeling me.

 

[mr x]

That was sarcasm.

 

[Ryanh1801]

Oh, for chrissakes, Ryan! By your logic, every effin' traffic stop has the potential to turn into a bloody shootout, so we'd better start getting the SWAT team to pull people over for speeding. Are you serious?!

No, but that is why police are taught that their is no such thing as a "regular" Traffic stop. Ok well I got to go for a bike ride, ill continue to debate when I get back,

 

[Evan!]

Evan! Get out of my head and stop channeling me.

Damn, sorry...see ya, Kornkob's Brain...

 

[Evan!]

No, but that is why police are taught that their is no such thing as a "regular" Traffic stop. Ok well I got to go for a bike ride, ill continue to debate when I get back,

As such, police officers should be taught that there is no such thing as a regular misdemeanor drug warrant service.

 

[PeteOz77]

Screw that. If someone is breaking down my door, I am not going to sit there and wait for him to explain his reasoning before taking action. This stuff happens so fast.

Lets assume for a second that this was not the police. Lets assume that it was a couple of cracked out thugs coming to kill him. Should he wait? Should he sit there and make sure it is not someone peacefully kicking his door down? No, no way, screw that. If I am in this kids shoes I shoot too. You don't want me shooting through my door, don't try knocking it down...especially after dark.

I of course feel terrible for the officer and his family. I mentioned it in my first post. There was no reason for him to die. It should have never happened. However, just because it should have never happened, does not mean I blame the man defending his home. It is fully on the intruders and the people who sent them there.

Effing shame. I hope someday I live in a world where this atrocity is a part of history.

And where do you draw the line? What if it's your neighbour's 5 year old throwing a trantrum and hammering against your door with his feet? "Gee I'm sorry your child is dead, but I though someone was trying to break in and steal my CD player"

Two things I was taught in my GUN SAFETY class at age 15 were.

Never point your gun at anything you do not intend to KILL.
Always be 100% certain of your target.

My views have changed as I grow older (and live in a different country) and there is NOTHING I would use dealy force to protect, except my life and the life of my family. The insurance company will replace anything I have stolen, so if the crack head breaks in and steals some of my stuff, I won't be happy about it, but I am not about kill, or be killed over my CD collection.

 

[PeteOz77]

Furthermore, I'd only hope that the same standard of "ANY time you pull a trigger, you need to be CERTAIN of your target, and their intent" would be applied to cops as well. Apparently, however, it is not. The two stories are very similar, but the roles were reversed. One man may face lethal injection, the other one doesn't even get charged. But I'm sure Ryan, et al, would respond with something like, "he's got a badge, he can do no wrong".
.

+5

I could not agree more. As a matter of fact I would definitely hold the police and themilitary to a MUCH higher standard than a normal citizen, as they have been trained in how to deal with these type of scenarios.

ANY police officer or soldier that fires blindly through a door, without knowing his target is displaying incompetence and negligence and should be charged with a crime. He should lose his job AND GO TO JAIL even if he doesn't hit anyone. If he DOES shoot someone blindly and they die, he should be charged with manslaughter.. and go to jail.

 

[ThaDutchMasta]

+5

I could not agree more. As a matter of fact I would definitely hold the police and themilitary to a MUCH higher standard than a normal citizen, as they have been trained in how to deal with these type of scenarios.

ANY police officer or soldier that fires blindly through a door, without knowing his target is displaying incompetence and negligence and should be charged with a crime. He should lose his job AND GO TO JAIL even if he doesn't hit anyone. If he DOES shoot someone blindly and they die, he should be charged with manslaughter.. and go to jail.

+1 exactly...i can't believe that even happened

 

[PeteOz77]

But, again, he didn't just shoot blindly through the door. He fired on the guy after he'd broken down half his door and was crawling through the bottom half. I think it's safe to say that when I guy is banging down your door and crawling through the bottom, more often than not it's a criminal and not a cop. I mean, I doubt that that's in the SWAT training manual.

You have a good point, and if that IS how it happened (police have been known to conjure up a story or two, to protect themselves and their "Brothers"), then it's a lot easier to understand how a scared little man could panic, and still shoot before he KNOWS his life is in danger.

I'm glad it wasn't me and I didn't have to make a split second decision that would change my life forever. The blame for the entire situation definitely lies on the heavy handed tactics used by the Gestapo.

One thing I do find interesting about a lot of these discussions (every forum on the net, not just here), is how many people say "I would shoot the bastards if they broke into my house". It takes a LOT of balls to pull a trigger and kill another human being.

I have never been on that end of the gun in a situtaion like that (thank God!), but I have been on the other end. I have had a gun pulled on me in rage and I was **** scared.... Everything changes when the gun comes out, whether you are holding it, or having it pointed at you.

Watch "Unforgiven" and you might agree. Besides being a FANTASTIC movie, it takes away the "hero" aspect of the gunslinger in the old west and personalises it and deglorifies it, back to what it is.. "It's a hell of a thing, killin' a man. Take away all he's got, and all he's ever gonna have."

 

[cubbies]

I understand where you are coming from Pete, but I mean this is obviously completely different. A kid having a tantrum on your porch is gonna by like somebody knocking loud. This was someone breaking down the door. I am pretty sure you would know the difference pretty quick.

Of course you are right. Sitting here at my keyboard, I say I would shoot. Maybe I would, maybe I wouldn't. However, I do know that regardless of what I would actually do, I see no fault in what this guy did.

I am sure this guy would gladly lose his CD collection instead of getting in a gun fight, but when someone is breaking in through your front door you don't have time to find out exactly what their intentions are. Like I said, it happens very fast. You have to make a decision. The way I see it, you have two choices. Let it play out and see what happens, or act. I don't think I would be of the "let it play out" crowd, and I don't frown on this guy for being that way either.

 

[PeteOz77]

While I can agree with the checking things out, the only thing that is going to tell you is if they have been caught before. Im the type of person that always prepares for the worse. You can never assume that the guy with no criminal back ground is what it seems. People flip out for no reason.

Seems to me that they knew ALL about him, since they had broken in previously and rummaged through his things..... I doubt they found much in the way of an arsenal or proceeds of a drug trafficking setup.

 

[PeteOz77]

One's propensity to violence is actually due mostly to family violence, not video games.

And/or being good and liquored up!! I know too many people that should be branded permanently with "Instant *******, just add alcohol"

 

[PeteOz77]

The way I see it, you have two choices. Let it play out and see what happens, or act. I don't think I would be of the "let it play out" crowd, and I don't frown on this guy for being that way either.

Agreed. We can all thank (whomever we worship as that magical omnipotent being in the sky), that we will most likely never be in such a situation. And if we ever do find ourselves having to make that split second decision, I hope we all make the right decision... whatever that happens to be. I don't frown on this guy either, especially because we don't really know all of the "facts". If the door was broken down, and the guy was crawling though, ther poor bloke only had a few seconds to make the right decision, or possibly lose his life. I say IF that is the case, he erred on the side of good judgement. If he shot through a door at an unknown target because he though they were coming in to possibly hurt him.. he erred on the side of bad judgement.

WOW! I really need to try to keep up with these great discussions better so i don't have to reply 6 times in a row and take up a whole page to myself....

 

[xcrusader]

I disagree. A man halfway through your door while you are home is perpetrating a home invasion. An ARMED home invasion in this case. More than enough reason to believe that you are in serious fear for your life and safety. Had this not been a cop on a NKW, the homeowner probably would already have his weapon back and at least one cop would have given him an unofficial 'attaboy'

If the cops had announced themslves, or executed a proper entry to the home (instead of trying to scramble in the bottom of a half destroyed door) this would have been resolved without firing a shot.

Your 'stealing a tv' and 'running out the back door' straw men are not relevant to the discussion. That is NOT what was occurring, based on facts given in this case (and in mayother cases that can be sited in which LEOs and innocent citizens exchanged fire over NKW). Furthermore your statement is not factually accurate as stated since such distintions vary from in different juristictions.

First, I must start by saying, "stated by a true pothead"

Second, "unofficial attaboy" is UNOFFICIAL!!!

Third, Oh yeah if the door would have swung open and I would have been woken up with yelling, the first thing I would have thought was.. gee I'm not going to grab my gun because someone is yelling and screaming. The underlying point here is why were they serving a warrant in the middle of the night?

Fourth, I didn't say "stealing a tv and running out the back door", I said you can't shoot someone for stealing your TV. I also said, you can't shoot somebody who is running out the door(shooting in the back). If you do, you better have a good reason (i.e. running toward your family). You say this point is invalid, well if the rules of self defense reguarding personal gun use in your home in the United States offend you, possibly you should seek another living situation.

It is your God given right to disagree with me. When this happens to you, I'll be sure to send you a large box filled with soap on a ropes for your many years in prison.

I will state again, obviously there is some shady stuff goin on, however, when a cop comes on scene and sees his buddy dead on the front porch, who are you going to believe. The dead guy on the PORCH, or the guy with the gun, who enjoys smoking pot recreationally. Which by the way, IS ILLEGAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know it is not a big deal at all. I have lots of friends who "partake". I choose not to because well here is a good example. I also want to have the best job I can, and if I piss hot all the time, I will never get ahead in life.

Thats my .02 take it or leave it.

 

[carls47807]

why exactly is pot an illegal substance again?

i think our kids kids will be reading about how pot was illegal back in early 21st century, and realize how ignorant it was. like prohibition.

 

[BuffaloSabresBrewer]

Thats my .02 take it or leave it.

I'll leave it.