If This Doesn't Make You Angry...

[kornkob]

Let's consider something else.

It is a trivial matter for you, or me, or anyone who wants to access your house and steal your stuff to spend a little time to find out when you are home, how many people live in your place and which door you use to enter and exit. This information allows a burglar to break in when there’s no one home, steal a bunch of your stuff and be out of the house 15 minutes later with several hundred in cash and prizes. All while not arousing enough suspicion for any neighbors to call the police, even if they notice something ‘weird’ about ‘that van that was parked in front of Joe’s house for a few hours a day every day last week’.

And you and I have no access to Social Security records (which tells me where you work), police background information (which tells me what cars you own, whether you get speeding tickets and a whole host of other background info) or various surveillance equipment (that van could have police cameras in it eliminating the need for someone to actually watch the house or go near the van for days at a time). We also are less able to do things like set up a fake 'gas leak', free TV contest or fire alarm to get people to exit their homes.

With the same information I’d use to break into your house, Law Enforcement could plan a raid on a suspected grow operation or drug dealer that would not necessitate the execution of a dynamic entry on an occupied dwelling. They could easily roll up on the suspect on his way home, even on his very block, and snatch him up before he’s anywhere near his empty home. They could even then use that opportunity to ask his permission to enter the house and search (which would make any evidence they found almost unassailable in court--- evidence found on a consented search is damn near cast iron). If he says no, THEN they could present the warrant, tell him they are going in and give him the opportunity to ‘make it easier on himself’ by owning up to what they are going to find anyway. tey could also take his keys and use that to open the door.

All that without firing a shot, driving a single armored car into a wall, breaking down a single door or throwing a single explosive device into someone's living room. They could also fire the carpenter they have on staff (for the purpose of repairing the doors that they bust in on 'wrong door warrants').

The idea that a grow operation is going to ‘destroy evidence’ which is why they need to execute a no knock warrant is foolish. The idea that they need a no knock for ‘officer safety’ is also often specious since they could snatch the guy off the street instead.

No—they execute no knock because it justifies the bloated SWAT related budget items, lets the boys have a little power trip and, ultimately, feeds the adrenaline junkies on the force their fix.

 

[cubbies]

With the same information I’d use to break into your house, Law Enforcement could plan a raid on a suspected grow operation or drug dealer that would not necessitate the execution of a dynamic entry on an occupied dwelling. They could easily roll up on the suspect on his way home, even on his very block, and snatch him up before he’s anywhere near his empty home. They could even then use that opportunity to ask his permission to enter the house and search (which would make any evidence they found almost unassailable in court--- evidence found on a consented search is damn near cast iron). If he says no, THEN they could present the warrant, tell him they are going in and give him the opportunity to ‘make it easier on himself’ by owning up to what they are going to find anyway. tey could also take his keys and use that to open the door.

All that without firing a shot, driving a single armored car into a wall, breaking down a single door or throwing a single explosive device into someone's living room. They could also fire the carpenter they have on staff (for the purpose of repairing the doors that they bust in on 'wrong door warrants').

That is precisely the point I was trying to make. This was completely unnecessary. There was no need for anyone to be harmed over this incident.

 

[RICLARK]

That is some of the biggest bull **** I have ever seen, I would of done the same think if some scumbag was busting through my door with a ski mask. Its better to be judged by twelve than carried by six and those assbags could of came up and knicked on the door served the warrant and be done with it but there too quick to boot somebodys ****ing door in. I cant stand how doughnuts can do whatever they want and then balloon the truth to convict innocent men.

 

[Evan!]

This is a great read on the subject. FYI. It's scary how often this kind of thing happens these days. Absolutely terrifying. And it's even more scary that few seem to care.

 

[RICLARK]

You know I think they could justify there actions if the man was a infamous felon or was suspected of running weapons or had a large rap sheet of weapon related convictions, But this disgusts me The man was growing tropical plants in his garage because its ****ing winter he had a japanese Maple that does sort of look like hemp but not much and when transplanted it in the spring the ******* thing turns red, If anything they could of bashed down his garage door with doughnuts watching his front and back doors so when he came out the could subdue him. The Morons had to go all John Wayne on him for no reason and ended up getting one of there comrads shot and killed. They have no reguards for how a man that is only 100lbs would feel if some burley man in a ski mask was busting through there door in the middle of the night, He was trying to protect himself and his fiancee and I tip my hat to him I hope he gets aquited and then wins a fat lawsuit.

 

[kornkob]

My cooler head always prevails in the end but it is stories like these that make me seriously consider buying a bullet proof vest and some trauma plates.

It also makes me glad that every firearm I've ever purchased has been a private transaction.

 

[zoebisch01]

I would rather take a beating from a couple of overzealous cops than KILL one of them by accident.

The thing that bothers me is, if you look through the lists of incidents linked by that map, the reports often end up in that the suspect gets fired on for suspicion of holding a firearm. The one I read, the guy was covering his genitals with his shirt and they shot him. So I don't think it is safe to presume that you always won't be met with anything less than deadly force. I mean, it was stupid to shoot through the door but in a panic the guy probably wasn't thinking clearly. He was most likely angry and on edge from the prior incident.

 

[cglkaptc]

When has a guy that works hard, comes home, sparks a bowl with friends, watchs tv, and goes to sleep ever done any harm to society. Sure give him a citation, but bust down his door?

It is rediculous that weed is illegal. Harder drugs are understandable because junkies will kill for a fix.

 

[cubbies]

It is rediculous that weed is illegal.

It is ridiculous that it is illegal, you will get no argument from me. However, legal or not, we don't need to be sending in the SWAT team in the cover of darkness to arrest the "criminals".

 

[zoebisch01]

It is rediculous that weed is illegal.

I find it even more ridiculous that Hemp, which does not contain anything but trace amounts of THC, is illegal. As a fiber, oil, etc. it is completely renewable...but yet for some reason remains illegal.

 

[Evan!]

I mean, it was stupid to shoot through the door but in a panic the guy probably wasn't thinking clearly. He was most likely angry and on edge from the prior incident.

But, again, he didn't just shoot blindly through the door. He fired on the guy after he'd broken down half his door and was crawling through the bottom half. I think it's safe to say that when I guy is banging down your door and crawling through the bottom, more often than not it's a criminal and not a cop. I mean, I doubt that that's in the SWAT training manual.

 

[Ryanh1801]

But I'm sure Ryan, et al, would respond with something like, "he's got a badge, he can do no wrong".

Thanks for responding for me. I have never nor will I ever say LEO can do no wrong, they are human just like the rest of us. But, it does get very annoying that you dig up any article you can find past or present, (the last one you posted up was almost a year old). Just to either bash of LEO or the Gov. I mean seriously dude, if you don't like it do something about it, don't continually bitch on a forum.

Well im still hungover and thats all I feel like typing out right now. Im going to get lunch.

 

[mr x]

I mean seriously dude, if you don't like it do something about it.

Ryan Frederick did it for us.

 

[Evan!]

Thanks for responding for me. I have never nor will I ever say LEO can do no wrong, they are human just like the rest of us. But, it does get very annoying that you dig up any article you can find past or present, (the last one you posted up was almost a year old). Just to either bash of LEO or the Gov. I mean seriously dude, if you don't like it do something about it, don't continually bitch on a forum.

Well im still hungover and thats all I feel like typing out right now. Im going to get lunch.

Does it really matter how old it is? I'm sorry that it annoys you that I am able to dig up articles that don't make the government look good, but I'm not setting out with the purpose of simply bashing the government. There are injustices that take place every day at the hands of the state---some of them are more egregious than others---and I'm not just "cherry picking" articles. The use of SWAT teams to serve misdemeanor drug warrants has been steadily rising as municipalities get federal grant money for anti-terrorism---they get their new toys, and they wanna use 'em, so they use 'em for pennyante sh*t like this. The article I posted was only one incident in a growing list of these raids, and I feel the need to call attention not only to the isolated injustice of this one incident, but to the overall problem of militarization of the civilian police force. You could claim I'm cherry picking just to paint the State and the LEO in a bad light, but it would be disingenuous---because there's no shortage of incidents out there exactly like this (I linked to a nice list of them previously).

Furthermore, I'm not simply "bitching on a forum", I'm calling attention to the injustices that our population faces in a public setting. Not only that, but you really have no idea what I do outside of HBT with regards to combating the issue (for example, writing my representatives, talking to local politicians, etc.), so you have absolutely no authority to speak on the matter of what I do outside of HBT. If you don't agree with my stance, address my issues themselves (or just ignore me), but don't tell me to "stop bitching". I will continue to "bitch", and yell, and scream, and cry out, until as many people as possible know about the injustices that are committed. If it pisses you off, if you'd rather I shut my mouth and keep my head down and do what I'm told and wait till it's someone I know and love that is the victim, then I suggest again that you just ignore me---because I won't be doing that anytime soon. Cory Maye's death sentence was overturned in large part because of the support from people like me---and mainly Radley Balko, who almost single-handedly saved that man's life.

My comment about you was uncalled for, and I apologize---but I honestly don't get your almost kneejerk deference to The State when it comes to pretty much anything. I'll personally admit that the State is right on some things, and I'm not an idealogue who is against government regardless of the situation---but automatic deference to the state is as bad, or worse, as automatic dismissal of the state. I don't know where you get it, I don't know quite what background has led you to where you are, so I won't speculate---I'll just say that a little healthy skepticism when it comes to our exalted leaders is never a bad thing.

 

[xcrusader]

The fact remains, you cant shoot somebody for breaking down your door and trying to get in.... you can shoot somebody who is in your house and trying to cause harm to you or your family.... you also cant shoot somebody for stealing your tv or trying to run out the door. If you shoot somebody in the back, you better have a real good story to tell the cops. Don't get me wrong, I feel for the guy, and obviously there is some shady stuff going on, but he did kill a cop who wasn't in his house yet.

 

[kornkob]

The fact remains, you cant shoot somebody for breaking down your door and trying to get in.... you can shoot somebody who is in your house and trying to cause harm to you or your family.... you also cant shoot somebody for stealing your tv or trying to run out the door. If you shoot somebody in the back, you better have a real good story to tell the cops. Don't get me wrong, I feel for the guy, and obviously there is some shady stuff going on, but he did kill a cop who wasn't in his house yet.

I disagree. A man halfway through your door while you are home is perpetrating a home invasion. An ARMED home invasion in this case. More than enough reason to believe that you are in serious fear for your life and safety. Had this not been a cop on a NKW, the homeowner probably would already have his weapon back and at least one cop would have given him an unofficial 'attaboy'

If the cops had announced themslves, or executed a proper entry to the home (instead of trying to scramble in the bottom of a half destroyed door) this would have been resolved without firing a shot.

Your 'stealing a tv' and 'running out the back door' straw men are not relevant to the discussion. That is NOT what was occurring, based on facts given in this case (and in mayother cases that can be sited in which LEOs and innocent citizens exchanged fire over NKW). Furthermore your statement is not factually accurate as stated since such distintions vary from in different juristictions.

 

[Ryanh1801]

Does it really matter how old it is? I'm sorry that it annoys you that I am able to dig up articles that don't make the government look good, but I'm not setting out with the purpose of simply bashing the government. There are injustices that take place every day at the hands of the state---some of them are more egregious than others---and I'm not just "cherry picking" articles. The use of SWAT teams to serve misdemeanor drug warrants has been steadily rising as municipalities get federal grant money for anti-terrorism---they get their new toys, and they wanna use 'em, so they use 'em for pennyante sh*t like this. The article I posted was only one incident in a growing list of these raids, and I feel the need to call attention not only to the isolated injustice of this one incident, but to the overall problem of militarization of the civilian police force. You could claim I'm cherry picking just to paint the State and the LEO in a bad light, but it would be disingenuous---because there's no shortage of incidents out there exactly like this (I linked to a nice list of them previously).

The thing is Drug warrants are going to happen, because drugs are still illegal. Swat teams need to serve them for the simple fact that is what they are trained to do. Drug warrants are some of the most dangerous ones they can serve, because these people are for the most part not in a correct state of mind. They are dealing with people that would just assume kill LEO, than go to jail. No knock warrants are a most in some cases, but others they are un called for, and from what I have read about the above article this was one case that it was not needed. But at the same time who knows what the police where told.

Furthermore, I'm not simply "bitching on a forum", I'm calling attention to the injustices that our population faces in a public setting. Not only that, but you really have no idea what I do outside of HBT with regards to combating the issue (for example, writing my representatives, talking to local politicians, etc.), so you have absolutely no authority to speak on the matter of what I do outside of HBT. If you don't agree with my stance, address my issues themselves (or just ignore me), but don't tell me to "stop bitching". I will continue to "bitch", and yell, and scream, and cry out, until as many people as possible know about the injustices that are committed. If it pisses you off, if you'd rather I shut my mouth and keep my head down and do what I'm told and wait till it's someone I know and love that is the victim, then I suggest again that you just ignore me---because I won't be doing that anytime soon. Cory Maye's death sentence was overturned in large part because of the support from people like me---and mainly Radley Balko, who almost single-handedly saved that man's life.

I hope you do write your representatives, I know I do on issues I feel strongly about, gun control mostly. And cases like this one.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51417

Two Border Patrol officers that where sentenced to jail for doing their job.

 

[cubbies]

Swat teams need to serve them...

I disagree. This can, and should, be taken care of by the police. How hard is it to follow the guy home from work and stop him in his driveway? Busting down the doors in the cover of darkness with fully loaded automatic rifles, is the last way a situation like this should be handled, not the first.

 

[Ryanh1801]

I disagree. This can, and should, be taken care of by the police. How hard is it to follow the guy home from work and stop him in his driveway? Busting down the doors in the cover of darkness with fully loaded automatic rifles, is the last way a situation like this should be handled, not the first.

Well contrary to popular belief swat teams are used to save lives not take them. using a big force discourages people from resisting. That same guy you follow home and stop in his drive way can feel that with one cop he has a chance of getting away. I would put money of that if swat would have been used in the first story non of this would have ever happened, but that is just speculation.

 

[mr x]

because these people are for the most part not in a correct state of mind.

Are they still showing 'Reefer Madness' as training material? rotflmfao

 

[Ryanh1801]

Are they still showing 'Reefer Madness' as training material? rotflmfao

No, but can you honestly argue that under the influence of any drug, weather it be weed, alcohol or some narcotic, that you are in the same state of mind that you are when stone sober?

 

[c.n.budz]

No, but can you honestly argue that under the influence of any drug, weather it be weed, alcohol or some narcotic, that you are in the same state of mind that you are when stone sober?

Definitely not the same state of mind. But, not all dealers are also users. haven't you ever heard the phrase "Don't get high on your own supply"

And while your not in the same state of mind while smoking weed as when your sober, chances are you're more likely to lose your gun than start firing it in a drug induced frenzy(crack, meth, coke, PCP being totally different stories)

 

[Evan!]

The thing is Drug warrants are going to happen, because drugs are still illegal.

That's not the issue at hand. This isn't a debate about drug legalization, it's about how civilian police approach the enforcement of the laws.

Swat teams need to serve them for the simple fact that is what they are trained to do. Drug warrants are some of the most dangerous ones they can serve, because these people are for the most part not in a correct state of mind. They are dealing with people that would just assume kill LEO, than go to jail. No knock warrants are a most in some cases, but others they are un called for, and from what I have read about the above article this was one case that it was not needed. But at the same time who knows what the police where told.

This is simply untrue. They have the ability to check the background on these folks. They also have the ability to think rationally and clearly, beforehand, about what is really probably going to happen. And if you can sit here and tell me that an officer has cause to fear for his life when serving a warrant to someone with absolutely no history of violence, and the warrant is for suspicion of a few pot plants...then I would call into question your seriousness and your judgment. The fact is, pot doesn't make you violent, it makes you lazy and hungry. I agree, if they do a background check and the suspect is some crazed redneck with several gun convictions and a history of assault, and he's suspected of having a meth lab, then yeah, saddle up the SWAT team, by all means. But some DISCRETION needs to be exercised here. Common f*ckin' sense tells you that serving a misdemeanor drug warrant on a suspect with no history of violence does not necessitate a no-knock SWAT raid. And yeah, we do know, pretty much, what the police were told in this case: he might be growing some cannabis plants in his garage (actually Japanese Maples, but who's counting). Still doesn't call for a SWAT team home invasion. All I'm asking for is discretion and judgment. Some warrant service episodes clearly require a more militarized approach---but so many of these raids are either on the wrong house, or on nonviolent misdemeanor drug suspects.

I hope you do write your representatives, I know I do on issues I feel strongly about, gun control mostly. And cases like this one.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51417

Two Border Patrol officers that where sentenced to jail for doing their job.

I absolutely do. re: gun control, I couldn't believe the garbage I was hearing on the radio yesterday WRT Wash, DC's handgun ban being overturned. I've never, ever, ever understood that law---it's not like the criminals are gonna get a goddamned permit, so if they want a gun, they'll get a gun. The only people who suffer are the law-abiding citizens who just want to protect themselves in one of the most dangerous cities in America.

That's a sad story you linked, too---silly that an administrative mistake like not reporting weapon discharge would land him in prison.

 

[mr x]

Maybe I'd be in a better state of mind. I know a lot of people who are. It's been my experience that alcohol is a far worse mood wrecking drug than weed. Yet when police go to the door for domestic disputes at 3 in the morning, and they know the individuals are boozed, they don't show up with the 101st airborne division. And I know - I grew up in a small town, and my father was a lifelong police officer.

 

[kornkob]

And cases like this one.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51417

Two Border Patrol officers that where sentenced to jail for doing their job.

False. They are up on charges because they did NOT do their jobs.

They:

a) pursued when they are not supposed to. their job specifically requires a supervisor to authorize pursuit.

b) failed to report that he fired his weapon

c) policed up his brass which was ridding the scene of any evidence he had fired his weapon

d) fired on a 'suspect', who was running away, that he had not identified as being currently armed or even the shooter.

This cop's actions are not those of an innocent professional. It stinks of a coverup. It smells of a situation where some cops went off and did their own thing and then when it careened off the rails, they did what they could to minimize their exposure.

Also-- if this tips it at all: this was a Texas jury. With Texans on it.

Police should ALWAYS be held to a higher standard specifically b ecause they are given authority to curtail our civil rights.

 

[richab]

...then something's wrong with you.

You right that does piss me off, we need some gun control......

 

[Ryanh1801]

This is simply untrue. They have the ability to check the background on these folks. They also have the ability to think rationally and clearly, beforehand, about what is really probably going to happen. And if you can sit here and tell me that an officer has cause to fear for his life when serving a warrant to someone with absolutely no history of violence, and the warrant is for suspicion of a few pot plants...then I would call into question your seriousness and your judgment. The fact is, pot doesn't make you violent, it makes you lazy and hungry. I agree, if they do a background check and the suspect is some crazed redneck with several gun convictions and a history of assault, and he's suspected of having a meth lab, then yeah, saddle up the SWAT team, by all means. But some DISCRETION needs to be exercised here. Common f*ckin' sense tells you that serving a misdemeanor drug warrant on a suspect with no history of violence does not necessitate a no-knock SWAT raid. And yeah, we do know, pretty much, what the police were told in this case: he might be growing some cannabis plants in his garage (actually Japanese Maples, but who's counting). Still doesn't call for a SWAT team home invasion. All I'm asking for is discretion and judgment. Some warrant service episodes clearly require a more militarized approach---but so many of these raids are either on the wrong house, or on nonviolent misdemeanor drug suspects.
(

While I can agree with the checking things out, the only thing that is going to tell you is if they have been caught before. Im the type of person that always prepares for the worse. You can never assume that the guy with no criminal back ground is what it seems. People flip out for no reason.

 

[cubbies]

That same guy you follow home and stop in his drive way can feel that with one cop he has a chance of getting away.

Who said anything about one cop? I certainly wouldn't recommend sending one cop to follow the guy home and confront him. I also wouldn't recommend a team of fully armed "soldiers" busting down his door during the night. I would recommend something in between. Say, a couple of cops in his driveway, plus another one follows him home to block the way he came in. Then, the only way he is getting away is on foot. I don't see how this doesn't make sense.

This is actually reminding me of the other thread that was on here a week or two ago. Some guy on "Cops" got busted for growing weed. He also had a bunch of homebrewing stuff in his house and the cops busted him for it.

The way it went down was the Cops were waiting for him when he got home. He pulled up, the cop said I am officer so and so, the guy said hi I' so and so, and the cop said hi so and so you're under arrest. Done and done. I don't see why this is so hard.

 

[Evan!]

Just in case you weren't sufficiently disturbed by the OP story, I wanted to relate what I consider to be one of the most horrible incidents perpetrated by SWAT raids. The warrant was for failing to show up in court for a traffic violation. Some CI had claimed that the man in question had some armor piercing rounds. So they bring in the SWAT team in Joe Arpaio's APC. They fire tear gas into the house, catch it on fire and completely destroy the place. Then, SWAT chases their 10-month old puppy back into the burning house to die---and laugh about it as the owners lose their sh*t watching their dog die. I can't think of anything so wrong. Oh, and the kop-killer rounds in question? Never found 'em.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of stories of SWAT raiders shooting suspects' dogs as a matter of procedure. In one incident, a member of the SWAT team cut through a neighbor's yard to get to the back of the house in question, and when he did, the neighbor's dog did what guard dogs do: tried to attack the officer. So the officer shot and killed the dog. Jesus!

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Well contrary to popular belief swat teams are used to save lives not take them. using a big force discourages people from resisting.

I don't know about that. It's one thing to use a big force to cover all possibilities, you know, watch the windows, watch the doors, block in his car, etc.

That's very different than using a large force to come at you like a mob... cuz I'll tell you, if I had 5 or 6 people coming at me and a gun in my hand, I can't say I wouldn't shoot.

Even if they identified themselves as cops, I might decide to not believe them and shoot anyway. Why? Because I'm a law-abiding citizen and I have no reason to expect that the police would be busting down my door. So as far as I'm concerned, anybody who busts down my door claiming to be a cop is probably lying to gain entry... Maybe I'm paranoid, but what is more far-fetched? Thinking that the cops are going to send a swat team to the house of a law abiding citizen? Or that a career criminal might think that posing as a cop would be a good way to gain access to a residence?

Which do you think is more believable?

Now, I'm really not a whack-job. I've had cops knock on my door countless times. Every time they have, I've been helpful and respectful and friendly and they have been as well. I've never had a really bad run-in with a cop. My encounters have pretty much all been positive. Because I'm a law-abiding citizen! So yeah, I might not believe someone who claimed to have a search warrant or to be a cop who was trying to bust down my door.

On the other hand, if they knocked and politely told me they had a warrant, I'd walk them around and personally show them everything I have... they'd find a water bong, 5 gallons of mead, 10 gallons of beer, and maybe 10 mason jars filled with pipe tobacco. Big deal.