I have no idea what happened...Too sweet

[Xernex]

So I just brewed another back of my Migratory Coconut Stout, It's an oatmeal stout, probably the 6th time I've brewed it, and I change 1 little thing each batch to perfect it.

Brewed on 5/26, checked and got:

OG 1.065 - right in line

6/1 - 1.021
6/4 - 1.018
6/6 - 1.016
6/7 & 8 - 1.015

All measured with my hydrometer, all at 68F, decided it was time to keg (we have a party on 6/24 and wanted to have time to carb)

This time I decided to add my coconut in stainless "dry hopper". Added in 1.5 lbs of heavily toasted coconut, and 3 oz of Brewers best coconut flavor, because people seem to like (and I love) the huge punch of coconut.

Took a taste today, and dear god is it sweet...like sweeter than I'd ever expect, nothing like it was going in. So I figure wth take another sample.

Pull a sample and I'm getting 1.036... HOLY CRAP I can't believe that the coconut and the flavor added THAT much to a 5.25 gallon batch. What the heck...did I bump my head and measure the FG wrong before kegging? Am I just going Crazy...and any ideas what I can do?

 

[morbster]

Are you sure your coconut was free of any added sugars? Was it the same brand you typically buy?

Assuming your fermentation was controlled and behaved normally, I don't think your FG was truly 1.036 after two weeks in the fermenter. It would need to be something from the post-ferm additions.

 

[morbster]

Also, have you used the coconut flavoring before?

 

[Xernex]

Also, have you used the coconut flavoring before?

Same flavoring as usual. I was thinking about it on the ride in to work today... I can't recall shaking/mixing the flavoring up when I racked into the keg... I typically pour it in, rack on top then shake the holy heck out of the keg to mix - but I think I didn't this time. So my theory now is that all of it settled to the bottom and that's what I was getting. I'll have to mix it all up and re-test when I get home.

 

[BPal75]

I would think racking on top of flavoring would have mixed it up well enough but maybe some got stuck in the dip tube. My only other guess was you accidentally used sweetened coconut like morbster said.

I assume you tasted your hydro samples before kegging so if those didn't taste overly sweet like your first pour it would have to be post kegging additions.

 

[Xernex]

I would think racking on top of flavoring would have mixed it up well enough but maybe some got stuck in the dip tube. My only other guess was you accidentally used sweetened coconut like morbster said.

I assume you tasted your hydro samples before kegging so if those didn't taste overly sweet like your first pour it would have to be post kegging additions.

That was my thought as well, but the stuff is thicker than maple syrup, and I rack very slowly - I'm hoping that's the issue. Even had I used sweetened coconut I couldn't imagine it adding THAT much to FG. It has to be the additions though, because as you said I taste all my samples, and it was pretty spot on.

Hopefully when I agitate everything today, and re-check it'll be ok; just hoping I didn't lose all the coconut flavoring in the sample pours...if so, lesson learned.

 

[Revvy]

What kind of coconut extract was it? IIRC all of the LD CARLSON brewing flavor extracts aren't made with any fermentables in it.

 

[Xernex]

I used Brewer's Best this time.

 

[Revvy]

I used Brewer's Best this time.

I just pulled this MDS sheet off of google (and it scared me, lol)

It's mostly propylene glycol... Isn't that the same stuff that's part of anti-freeze that is intensely sweet in nature, which makes it attractive to dogs and kids and sadly they sometimes lick anti-freeze and get sick (not from the glycol but from everything else?)

I'm thinking that some of it dropped straight to the bottom of the keg before totally mixing and you sucked it up the bev tube?

AND would a glop of that highly concentrate stuff also through off the grav reading, maybe?

Just a thought.

 

[Xernex]

That's where I'm at on this one... I'm thinking the brewers best just sank to the bottom and that's what I got in the sample. We'll see now that it's more mixed up.

 

[BrewKnurd]

I just pulled this MDS sheet off of google (and it scared me, lol)

It's mostly propylene glycol... Isn't that the same stuff that's part of anti-freeze that is intensely sweet in nature, which makes it attractive to dogs and kids and sadly they sometimes lick anti-freeze and get sick (not from the glycol but from everything else?)

Thankfully, propylene glycol a meaningfully lower toxicty than ethylene glycol, which is what is what has been historically used in antifreeze (although at least some formulations are moving over to propylene glycol).

For giggles, I did the math. According to the MSDS linked, the flavoring is about 20% propylene glycol. Assuming a 5 oz bottle this means a bottle has about an ounce or 30 mg of propylene glycol. The LD50 in cute little lab animals appears to average around 20 g/kg.

So drinking an entire bottle of the stuff in one shot would kill a 1.5 kg (3.3 pounds or so) bunny.

Ethylene glycol appears to have an LD50 for lab animals ranging from 4.7-6.6 g/kg, so around 3-4 times as toxic (at least in lab animals) as propylene glycol. And then a further issue with antifreeze is the higher concentration of ethylene glycol relative to this the concentration of PG in this particular flavorant.

Complicating things - i'm not able to find anything about toxicity of propylene glycol in humans, other than obviously it is generally considered safe or would not be included in food products. Ethylene glycol has apparently been fatal in as low a dose as 5 ounces according the the NH department of environmental services, although no data was provided about the size of the person who ingested that dose.

I believe I have rambled enough, please return to your normally scheduled thread.

 

[Revvy]

Thankfully, propylene glycol a meaningfully lower toxicty than ethylene glycol, which is what is what has been historically used in antifreeze (although at least some formulations are moving over to propylene glycol).

For giggles, I did the math. According to the MSDS linked, the flavoring is about 20% propylene glycol. Assuming a 5 oz bottle this means a bottle has about an ounce or 30 mg of propylene glycol. The LD50 in cute little lab animals appears to average around 20 g/kg.

So drinking an entire bottle of the stuff in one shot would kill a 1.5 kg (3.3 pounds or so) bunny.

Ethylene glycol appears to have an LD50 for lab animals ranging from 4.7-6.6 g/kg, so around 3-4 times as toxic (at least in lab animals) as propylene glycol. And then a further issue with antifreeze is the higher concentration of ethylene glycol relative to this the concentration of PG in this particular flavorant.

Complicating things - i'm not able to find anything about toxicity of propylene glycol in humans, other than obviously it is generally considered safe or would not be included in food products. Ethylene glycol has apparently been fatal in as low a dose as 5 ounces according the the NH department of environmental services, although no data was provided about the size of the person who ingested that dose.

I believe I have rambled enough, please return to your normally scheduled thread.

LOL... I always get my "Lene Glycols" mixed up.

 

[BrewKnurd]

LOL... I always get my "Lene Glycols" mixed up.

Especially when they come to a party wearing the same shirt. Just a mess.

 

[Xernex]

The good news now is that it appears the issue is solved... I may have pumped almost all the coconut out before figuring it out...but I've got a pretty tasty oatmeal stout with a slight hint of coconut right now... Gotta do something about the lack of flavor...but that won't be an issue.

 

[HarborTownBrewing]

6/1 - 1.021
6/4 - 1.018
6/6 - 1.016
6/7 & 8 - 1.015

I know this isn't what you posted about, but when I first read you had a problem, then saw all these gravity readings, my mind went to a place which may not be relevant...at least to your original post.

BUT, there really isn't a great reason to pull gravity samples every couple days. Every time you open the carboy and every time you touch the beer with a siphon, there's a chance for nasty's to get in.

Just mentioning it since it may be an issue in the future, or something may be dampening some of the flavors you should have.

 

[Xernex]

I know this isn't what you posted about, but when I first read you had a problem, then saw all these gravity readings, my mind went to a place which may not be relevant...at least to your original post.

BUT, there really isn't a great reason to pull gravity samples every couple days. Every time you open the carboy and every time you touch the beer with a siphon, there's a chance for nasty's to get in.

Just mentioning it since it may be an issue in the future, or something may be dampening some of the flavors you should have.

I really only pulled so often on this to test the flavorings, but I'm pulling from a SS Brewbucket, so no opening other than opening up the valve; not at all like taking a top off.