I agree. I love this hobby and would hate to have to due it for a living. But that's not to say that I wouldn't mind being a silent partner in a brew pub.
I don't want to open a brewery (and maybe you shouldn't either)
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radwizard
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I would love to brew for a living, but not interested in the business side of anything in the food and bev industry. Most the brewery's I visit are also restraunts, pubs, and wholesaling. Sounds like a nightmare. I don't see anything wrong with doing what you love (hobby) as a job, it is just that when it comes to running a brewing operation such little of that is actually brewing. If someone came up to me and asked If I could brew my beers for them on a large scale, I would jump right on it- but since that will never happen - I'm doing just dandy with my five gallons.
madscientist451
Well-Known Member
Agree 100%
I'm not surprised with the reaction "that's too much work"; many people I know have gotten used to doing very little at their jobs. Then they wonder why businesses want to downsize, outsource or sell out and close down.
The dreamers who blow a wad of cash and open without knowing anything will either figure it out or they won't and shut down.
Even with 4,000+ breweries, there's still plenty of room for more local beer.
madscientist451
Well-Known Member
The corrupt NJ legislature "allowed" citizens to open small breweries, but you have to "take a tour" to buy tasting samples.
At some point I would think the people would stand up to the lawyers and lobbyists and tell the Government to stop picking winners and losers and let the free market decide. OK, Rant over.
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I think the bolded section is what he was getting at. Speaking from the younger side of people, I can't tell you how many people I've seen rush into "great ideas!" with no idea what it really takes and a solid plan. I've watched one person local to me knee jerk jump into at least 5+ different "great ideas!" and none of them have worked.
The main thing that I think he was driving at is that before you get too lost in your fantasy of getting rich selling your own beer, you need to realize what else is involved. All the million things that come with running a business. He knows he doesn't want to deal with that stuff. Neither do I. It's not that I don't want to work hard, but I really don't want to deal with the crappy parts of running a place. If I had the money to do it, I'd be fully on board with building the place, brewing, interacting with patrons, but I do not want to deal with some of the other parts. I'd have to have other partners that are ok with taking on those other roles. That's how I am, and I know it won't work if I try to take on the things I really don't enjoy.
Of course this is all theoretical. Right now I make good money as an engineer and that lets me play with my racing, motorcylce, and brewing hobbies. Would I like to someday have a small, local, nano brewery? Sure. But not before I have the money, means, and time to do it.
I would in fact love to brew for a living. What I do now is more or less going this way - every brew I do is a step to perfecting this or exercising in that, so that maybe a year later I could feel strong enough to compete with existing breweries.
It is not turning hobby into job that has always set me off, it is the realization of the fact that a small brewery is more or less always a brew pub, and I am totally, completely and absolutely reluctant to spend my life at that side of the bar. I'm not a pub goer, there is nothing in a pub/bar atmosphere that I'd enjoy, and ideally I'd prefer to deal with the pipies, valvies, yeasties, potties, worties, mash tunnies and all that but never actually have to show up in the pub, except for having a pint incognito and listening what people are saying about my brews.
Then, a few weeks back I met an old friend who I haven't seen for years, and what he said was like 100% the opposite, like he'd be the happiest man in creation if he could spend his life tendering at the bar while someone else would do the brewing part.
Well, well
We shall see.
It is not turning hobby into job that has always set me off, it is the realization of the fact that a small brewery is more or less always a brew pub, and I am totally, completely and absolutely reluctant to spend my life at that side of the bar. I'm not a pub goer, there is nothing in a pub/bar atmosphere that I'd enjoy, and ideally I'd prefer to deal with the pipies, valvies, yeasties, potties, worties, mash tunnies and all that but never actually have to show up in the pub, except for having a pint incognito and listening what people are saying about my brews.
Then, a few weeks back I met an old friend who I haven't seen for years, and what he said was like 100% the opposite, like he'd be the happiest man in creation if he could spend his life tendering at the bar while someone else would do the brewing part.
Well, well
We shall see.
I worked in a winery back when I was in high school / college. It was a great job. The majority of the time was cleaning, transferring, bottling, then more cleaning. I would totally do it again. But I wouldn't want to own it. When I started homebrewing I thought about starting a brewery, but don't want to start a business.
McGreen
Well-Known Member
I LOVED this article. Very honest. But let the homebrewers give it a go, too. I am not a fan of these "facebook breweries" that homebrew, have a logo, a facebook account, and maybe even a banner or 2, but don't have a brewery or even a license yet. I believe the term is "brewery in planning." It confuses the **** out of bar owners when they see "Springfield Brewing Co." and try to order it, but can't because it doesn't exist. And won't for 4-5 years. It gives craft beer a bad name. But this article points out the real killer of craft beer: Mr. Beer. That article was even better. Good stuff, guys! RDWHAH
bradleyhunt
Well-Known Member
Dude, hit the nail on the head! Heaven forbid you have to (wait for it) work hard for something.
Problem is plenty of relatively inexperienced homebrewers with ZERO business or commercial brewing experience are working plenty hard with their new nanos and micros...and still putting out a mediocre to terrible product.
In PHL metro there are dozens of new breweries that have popped up in the last year or so, with another 30 planning to open this year. I've been to many, and sadly, the beer is rarely good, often mediocre, and many times infected and/or plagued with common off-flavors (DMS, diacetyl, acetaldehyde, etc.).
So yes, the beer world would be a much better place if more people listened to the author.
bradleyhunt
Well-Known Member
You can't actually say that, for certain. Because you would still have people start a brewery and make not good beer WHILE some of the people that listened to the author would have actually made good beer.
If you don't like their beer, don't go there anymore. Sounds like you'll have another 30 different breweries to try soon.
GHBWNY
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I've had people say the same thing: "You should start your own brewery", or "you missed your calling", or "there's your retirement avocation." I've wondered, "What constitutes a 'brewery'?" It took only a second to consider that since having started homebrewing, all the above have come to pass. While my "brewery" is not a commercial operation, not big, not open to the public, not with a streetfront location, not subject to state and county health regulations, no regular hours, and certainly not showing a profit... it is also, not work. Just over two years ago, under my roof and at my time, expense and effort, I "opened a brewery"; in my cellar, on my stovetop, at my laundry sink, in my 6.5 gal fermenter, on my couch in my living room enjoying the fruits of my labor. Sometimes I get "customers" at my "brewery", but they never pay and always leave happy. And come back.
So, yeah, I could make my "brewery" bigger and better and well-known and more accessible to the public and profitable and subject to a whole new litany of laws, but it would be only those things --- and by no means more enjoyable. And probably less.
So, yeah, I could make my "brewery" bigger and better and well-known and more accessible to the public and profitable and subject to a whole new litany of laws, but it would be only those things --- and by no means more enjoyable. And probably less.
All this discussion about working hard is ridiculous. One can work like a dog 16-18 hours a day, 7 days a week at something, but if you don't know the finer points, you're just wasting your time and energy. Let's go ahead and use the current topic. I don't care how hard you work, how great your beer is. If you are ignorant to the ways of successful business and marketing, you are going to simply brew a lot of beer that no one knows to come drink, and/or you don't know how to sell it at a profit.
The simple fact that those of you that would judge the author of the article based on his honest self assessment is proof of concept, as well as a glaring testament to why businesses that are started by hobbyists tend to fail more often. Why is it assumed that just because you know how to brew great beer, you automatically know how to pick a great location (yes, the real estate mantra: location, location, location DOES matter), or have great record keeping/financial controls in place, or are a great money manager, or you have excellent time management skills? Who says you are the best at customer service. Just because you can talk my ear off about your beer or your process, doesn't mean you can make me happy when I come in to your tap room and your bartender (who happens to be your wife, because cheap labor) can't pour a beer from the tap without giving me a glass with the top half being foam, and I say something to you (not knowing or caring that it's your wife I'm saying something about, she's an employee doing something wrong in a customer service based business) and you get all pissy with me, BECAUSE she's your wife and you are incapable of separating the two.
Lastly, if you REALLY understand the concept of working hard, you would not even venture to judge anyone about it, because you would understand the concept of burnout. Go ahead, put your family's entire future and well being squarely on the shoulders of your success as a brewery owner/operator(or any business for that matter), and see how many of you armchair quarterbacks lose your minds and whatever hope of retirement savings you had in less than a couple years.
There's a fine line between negativity and reality. They both suck, just one hurts a little less than the other when applied in appropriate measure. And one can save your sanity, your marriage, and your financial future.
The simple fact that those of you that would judge the author of the article based on his honest self assessment is proof of concept, as well as a glaring testament to why businesses that are started by hobbyists tend to fail more often. Why is it assumed that just because you know how to brew great beer, you automatically know how to pick a great location (yes, the real estate mantra: location, location, location DOES matter), or have great record keeping/financial controls in place, or are a great money manager, or you have excellent time management skills? Who says you are the best at customer service. Just because you can talk my ear off about your beer or your process, doesn't mean you can make me happy when I come in to your tap room and your bartender (who happens to be your wife, because cheap labor) can't pour a beer from the tap without giving me a glass with the top half being foam, and I say something to you (not knowing or caring that it's your wife I'm saying something about, she's an employee doing something wrong in a customer service based business) and you get all pissy with me, BECAUSE she's your wife and you are incapable of separating the two.
Lastly, if you REALLY understand the concept of working hard, you would not even venture to judge anyone about it, because you would understand the concept of burnout. Go ahead, put your family's entire future and well being squarely on the shoulders of your success as a brewery owner/operator(or any business for that matter), and see how many of you armchair quarterbacks lose your minds and whatever hope of retirement savings you had in less than a couple years.
There's a fine line between negativity and reality. They both suck, just one hurts a little less than the other when applied in appropriate measure. And one can save your sanity, your marriage, and your financial future.
seefish
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This goes without saying for any entrepreneurial venture.
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Shortest single batch brewday I've had on mine was ~5 hours. Longest was ~10.
n00b. Im gonna target 11 minutes, 11min27sec including cleanup
u even inlinedecoctantisweetboilmash br0????
I think the article was insightful in many ways, because it reinforces the idea that nothing worthwhile comes easily. Without business acumen, any prospective brewery is poised for failure. And for most homebrewers leading comfortable lives, the challenges associated with starting such a demanding business aren't worth the rewards.
As for me, I'm not naive. I know of the challenges associated with building a new business and the outstanding risks involved. But if it's what you're passionate about, isn't it worth saying that you at least tried?
As for me, I'm not naive. I know of the challenges associated with building a new business and the outstanding risks involved. But if it's what you're passionate about, isn't it worth saying that you at least tried?
Yeah, I almost think owning a bar or managing a restaurant bar is more important credentials than being able to brew if you are thinking of starting a brewery. There are a lot of things that experience can really help you with in that business. You can hire people that know how to brew. I guess you can hire people that know how to manage as well but that will not be cheap and are they going to have the same passion for the business as you? I work hard everyday for my Job as and engineer and the business that I started that my wife is not working at full time. At my regular full time job I have worked 30hours straight with out going home before, and many long hour days close to that. It isn't the norm but when things aren't getting produced due to issues the engineer figures them out at all costs. I already have 2 jobs and know if I quite them both running a brewery will be like 5 jobs. There are some really driven people that can pull this off. So if your one of them go for it. Competition for shelf space and handles is so much suffer today that is was even 2 years ago.
I can probably do 1 batch in 4.5 - 5 hours but then I have to clean up. That is at least another hour. I have been brewing on one and If I have all days I will start mashing in another batch while boiling the first batch. You got everything out anyway cuts down on the clean time. I have been working on some small batch stuff for a local brew pub so our thinking is I just brew and we have the grunt work help with the washing sanitizing and doing the clean up.
I would say the return on investment has a lot to do with the homebrewer's expectations. The retail market is getting saturated with craft beer. There is still room for more breweries for sure, but it's exceedingly tough to get rich and expand into distribution these day (in Michigan, anyway). The new breweries are mostly going to be local watering holes.
If a homebrewer went professional and opened a brewpub it would very likely remain a taproom-only business. Maybe that's just what some homebrewers want? Open a small beer bar in an upscale area for serving "trendy" beers to people with a much higher income. With the right ambiance it could still work.
If you want to do it alone, it's really tough. We have a brewery coming in Reed City. They are trying to finance without borrowing large amounts. They are working on about 3 years now and still aren't open. Granted, they aren't from right around here, so there was some moving and whatnot happening in that time, but it's still a slow process. Most breweries I've seen start from the beginning take about year LONGER to open than they planned. Lots to do with getting permits approved. They've streamlined the process some, but most people are surprised by how long and frustrating it is to get the building and equipment set up and approved before licensing can be approved. Months of expense and no income to offset.
If a homebrewer went professional and opened a brewpub it would very likely remain a taproom-only business. Maybe that's just what some homebrewers want? Open a small beer bar in an upscale area for serving "trendy" beers to people with a much higher income. With the right ambiance it could still work.
If you want to do it alone, it's really tough. We have a brewery coming in Reed City. They are trying to finance without borrowing large amounts. They are working on about 3 years now and still aren't open. Granted, they aren't from right around here, so there was some moving and whatnot happening in that time, but it's still a slow process. Most breweries I've seen start from the beginning take about year LONGER to open than they planned. Lots to do with getting permits approved. They've streamlined the process some, but most people are surprised by how long and frustrating it is to get the building and equipment set up and approved before licensing can be approved. Months of expense and no income to offset.
I was just thinking about the reed city brewery this week and wondered what was happening with them. Headed up that way to our cabin today for the week which made me think of it.
PM on the way.
bobeer
Fermentation Specalist
We have a few brewpubs around here like Sweet Water Tavern and Dog Fish Head ale house just to name a couple... There's 2 Sweet Water Taverns and they're always jammed packed. Don't get me started on how packed the DFH ale house is...
I think if you have good food, decent beer, and a good atmosphere you can easily make it in the right area. This northern Va area has a ton of expendable income which is why everywhere is mobbed all the time. The wife and I were out while the kids were at the grandparents one night and we went to 3 different places in 2 different towns and couldn't walk-in and grab a table anywhere. It was after 8pm too...
Like I said before... I think if you have a good product, good marketing, and you're in the right area, you can easily open a successful brew pub or brewery. (after all the red tape is behind you that is Any successful business is a ton of hard work and long hours but at the end of the day, if it's what you love, I think you'll come out on top.
I think if you have good food, decent beer, and a good atmosphere you can easily make it in the right area. This northern Va area has a ton of expendable income which is why everywhere is mobbed all the time. The wife and I were out while the kids were at the grandparents one night and we went to 3 different places in 2 different towns and couldn't walk-in and grab a table anywhere. It was after 8pm too...
Like I said before... I think if you have a good product, good marketing, and you're in the right area, you can easily open a successful brew pub or brewery. (after all the red tape is behind you that is
Any successful business is a ton of hard work and long hours but at the end of the day, if it's what you love, I think you'll come out on top.
madscientist451
Well-Known Member
Here's a guy in Queens NY, started out homebrewing, then a commercial nano brewery in a 150 sq/ft garage, now has a tap room pen 3 days a week. No fancy equipment, no menu, probably pretty steep rent, good reviews on yelp. The video talks about 11-14 hr work days. Also talks about sense of community and why he's happy to be there.
Edit: The film , below, shows how he used discarded materials to get his low budget start up going while he worked full time elsewhere. His new (repurposed) rig is 10bbl. He also talks about how his garage brewery helped to prove his brewing/marketing skills.
Consultants and experts are saying just skip this step and drop $500K+ into a 7bbl setup, that a Nano is not profitable. The grunge low budget concept isn't going to work everywhere, but this guy shows that it actually can work if all the pieces come together.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_VBzZfPJoA[/ame]
Also featured in 8 minute short film:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GcNJUidy_A[/ame]
Edit: The film , below, shows how he used discarded materials to get his low budget start up going while he worked full time elsewhere. His new (repurposed) rig is 10bbl. He also talks about how his garage brewery helped to prove his brewing/marketing skills.
Consultants and experts are saying just skip this step and drop $500K+ into a 7bbl setup, that a Nano is not profitable. The grunge low budget concept isn't going to work everywhere, but this guy shows that it actually can work if all the pieces come together.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_VBzZfPJoA[/ame]
Also featured in 8 minute short film:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GcNJUidy_A[/ame]
I don't think i really ever want to mess around with Finlands alcohol legislation as a owner/brewer, thanks all the same.....It's bad enough as an bartender, let alone all the supply/brewing stuff.
LandoLincoln
Well-Known Member
I think that the blog writer ran out of things to write about, so took an idea that could have been explained in a couple of sentences and stretched it out to 30+ paragraphs.
If someone says to you, "man, you should open a brewery" and you already looked into the idea and decided it wasn't for you, then you should just say, "thanks, but I don't want to take something I like doing for fun and turn it into a job."
mesooohoppy
Well-Known Member
+1. I only got through a couple of paragraphs and couldnt stand to read anymoe. We get you you don't want to open a brewery.
Maybe it was the way I read it, but the tone where he shut down his friend for the prize 'brewer for a day' was dismissive and mean. Yeah its a lot of work, but it would be a great learning experience for a home brewer. Knowledge is power!
Any startup business is going to be hard work and long hours. If I were to open a brewery I would hire a skilled brewmaster and run the business. It would be tough to make sales and brew beer.
It would be interesting to do a brewery within a bed and breakfast/hospitality type business. The size would basically be what a lot homebrewers do anyway. That would keep the fun of brewing and sharing your beer with new people without have to necessarily make large sales on the beer. Or do a winery type thing with a hop farm.
It would be interesting to do a brewery within a bed and breakfast/hospitality type business. The size would basically be what a lot homebrewers do anyway. That would keep the fun of brewing and sharing your beer with new people without have to necessarily make large sales on the beer. Or do a winery type thing with a hop farm.
BuglessDuster
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I sometimes fantasize about opening a brewery that sells baked goods - a beerkery. I make awesome carrot cakes, pond cakes, zucchini bread, etc. My beer's pretty good too.
If I were living in a country with less ridiculous alcohol selling and making laws, i might do it, but from the people I know that do have breweries here in Finland, You basically have to either be in one of the 3 big cities or have it as a side business/attraction to your main restaurant/hotel etc.
Friend of mine owns the local brewpub/restaurant/musicstage, he would love to bottle and sell, making his production year round and much easier to stabilise, but the hoops he'd have to jump through are just making it hard to make extra cash instead of losing it.
Friend of mine owns the local brewpub/restaurant/musicstage, he would love to bottle and sell, making his production year round and much easier to stabilise, but the hoops he'd have to jump through are just making it hard to make extra cash instead of losing it.
pepindavid
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That's actually my dream early-retirement plan : buy land in my "native" region (la Petite-Nation, somewhere in the vicinity of Montebello), build a hop farm, and have a small brewery on location. Not sure how that would fit with the current laws, though.
Oh, a few things, though: I'm only on my fifth batch of homebrew, and I have yet to grow hops. Since I am probably 20-25 years away from retirement, I still have time to learn..!
I would like to do this like an old common room/inn establishment. A bed and dinner and beer instead of a bed and breakfast. Being in a business role, I think I could blend my hobby and the rest... once I don't need the money to live on.
QuadConPana
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I couldn't have said it better. I remember back in the '70's watching the show Wall Street Week on PBS where they were interviewing the manager of a growth stock mutual fund who didn't buy stocks in computer companies at a time when the computer industry was exploding. He bought stocks in companies that supplied the computer industry with disk drives and components, etc. The industry was cutthroat with big winners and even bigger losers. But, the component manufacturers didn't care who won.
drainbamage
Keep HBT weird.
I'm torn on the idea of going pro.
I have a couple of lifelong friends who have been urging me/us to start a brewery for a while now. Problem is, they have fairly little technical brewing knowledge, and don't have much of a business plan beyond Step 1: Make beer, Step 2: ???, Step 3: Profit! Plus, they don't really have the patience to sit through a brew day even now, much less commercial-scale and all the cleaning that goes along with it. I've been telling them that if I ruined a perfectly good hobby by making it my job, I'd never forgive myself.
On the other side, I've been approached by my BIL and a friend of his. They came to me with a very clear vision for a brewpub project, instead of a distribution brewery. Unlike my friends, both of them are also active homebrewers, and the one guy has years of kitchen experience at a highly-rated local restaurant. We also have our own unique specialties and brewing styles that I think would be complementary. I still have my reservations about going pro (and I'm definitely not ready to quit my day job yet), but if I was to do so, I think those guys would be the way to go.
I have a couple of lifelong friends who have been urging me/us to start a brewery for a while now. Problem is, they have fairly little technical brewing knowledge, and don't have much of a business plan beyond Step 1: Make beer, Step 2: ???, Step 3: Profit! Plus, they don't really have the patience to sit through a brew day even now, much less commercial-scale and all the cleaning that goes along with it. I've been telling them that if I ruined a perfectly good hobby by making it my job, I'd never forgive myself.
On the other side, I've been approached by my BIL and a friend of his. They came to me with a very clear vision for a brewpub project, instead of a distribution brewery. Unlike my friends, both of them are also active homebrewers, and the one guy has years of kitchen experience at a highly-rated local restaurant. We also have our own unique specialties and brewing styles that I think would be complementary. I still have my reservations about going pro (and I'm definitely not ready to quit my day job yet), but if I was to do so, I think those guys would be the way to go.
LandoLincoln
Well-Known Member
Find a local brewery and ask them if you and your friends can come over during a brew day and clean out their mash tun for them. That should shut your friends up pretty quick about wanting to open up a brewery.
Business is tough and extremely demanding of time and dedication to succeed. It takes a lot of self sacrifice and never ending commitment. It is a hell of a rush if you have the guts to put it all on the line and go for broke. Most fail.
Don't go partners with family or friends. Best not to go partners at all. Don't hire family or friends either. Sometimes, those you hire, when you can afford it, will become like family and friends, if you are lucky. Sometimes not at all.
Don't go partners with family or friends. Best not to go partners at all. Don't hire family or friends either. Sometimes, those you hire, when you can afford it, will become like family and friends, if you are lucky. Sometimes not at all.
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