I’m tired of making grassy gross IPA’s.

[Gravelscratcher]

Howdy there @dad23ds...it’s God’s country (ha,ha).
Where about in Montgomery? I’m in Buffalo Springs.

 

[urg8rb8]

I brewed both my NEIPA (w/ Cryo) and all my IPA’s basically the same (in terms of late hop additions), and the NEIPA was stellar, and the IPA’s were horrible.
All my other beer styles have been very good to awesome.
What I’m getting from this is:
1). It’s related to my late hop additions
2). Cryo Hops don’t produce the same result as normal hops (there’s less grassiness to them by nature).
3). I’m pretty sure it has more to do w/ my flame-out hop additions being put in too hot, combined w/ standard hop pellets (Cryo Hops don’t react the same, as previously stated).
4). Not sure if my dry hops or water profile are playing a big role (yet).

Adjustments:
I plan to start focusing on water PH, by taking distilled water, and adding salts/gypsum/lactic acid to dial PH, and using BeerSmith as a simple guide.

I also plan to make sure I don’t add my flame out hops in too early, after the boil. Make sure I get them in below 180...probably 170ish.

Probably going to leave my dry hop additions alone, until I’ve eliminated the other 2 potential causes 1st. I don’t think I’m doing anything different than most people w/ my DH additions.

I’ll be honest...I think my “too hot” flameout hop additions are the primary culprit.

I doubt the too hot flame out is the issue. I've always thrown the hops in right after turning the gas off... While the worth was in the 200sF and I never got this too grassy flavor.

 

[Gravelscratcher]

Maybe the water combined w/ the late hop additions I guess.

It has something to do with the late hop additions, because it's only IPA's that I have this issue.

Other styles, that I don't dry hop or steep, dont have this problem.

 

[urg8rb8]

Maybe the water combined w/ the late hop additions I guess.

It has something to do with the late hop additions, because it's only IPA's that I have this issue.

Other styles, that I don't dry hop or steep, dont have this problem.

I don't remember, do you do all grain? If you went the extract route, water chemistry shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Gravelscratcher]

Yes, AG.

 

[urg8rb8]

Yes, AG.

I'm curious if you did one extract batch with the flame out hops and no water chemistry if you'll still have that problem. When you use extract, there is no need for water chemistry because the maltster did the water chemistry already.

 

[woodfarmer]

I wonder what would happen if you tried something a bit different? I have a tried and well tested recipe that everyone seems to like including international prizewinners and a German brewery boss. This is a very easy drinking beer which is my own recipe. https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/617505/larry-s-summer-pale-ale Note it is not a heavy on the hops IPA but an easy drinking British style IPA. You will find it disappears quickly even when "non beer drinkers" try it.
Regards

 

[Blazinlow86]

I doubt the too hot flame out is the issue. I've always thrown the hops in right after turning the gas off... While the worth was in the 200sF and I never got this too grassy flavor.

It's not that the flameout hops are added when it's too hot. It's that if you add the flamout hops but then whirlpool without chilling the flamout hops are no longer "flamout" and are more 5-30 min additions depending on how long you wait to chill. And the longer you keep the hops at temp the less flavor and more bitterness you will experience. I don't know if it would be described as grassy but I'd say more bland and bitter than expected definitely. Cheers

 

[badmajon]

If you are making grassy, piney, resinous, turpentiney, smelly, esophagus eating, gasoline flavored, generally crappy IPA's, it sounds like you are doing all the right things and making them perfectly. That's what 99% of them taste and smell like.

Keep drinking them! You'll have a man bun and a neck beard in no time.

Bwahahaha thanks man I've had a crappy day today and this made me smile.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I’ll be honest...I think my “too hot” flameout hop additions are the primary culprit.

I'm interested to hear back if adjusting this fixes your problem. I think I've put whirlpool hops in too hot before, and also am not accounting for the fact I cool my wort pretty slow(thus pulling more IBUs from the boil hops). However, I've never gotten grassy flavors. Some beers have just turned out more bitter than I wanted.

 

[urg8rb8]

I think if you really want to figure out exactly what it is, change only one thing at a time.

 

[couchsending]

God there is so much horrible information here...

You don’t need to chill your wort below 170* before adding whirlpool hops. Do you guys think that any large brewer can cool 30-60 bbls of beer from 212-170 in a respectable time? No. If you add any hops during the boil you can’t run wort through a heat X to get it to 170 from 212 without clogging it. You can brew high gravity and dilute with cold water to maybe get it to 190? Maybe, maybe 180. The point is many breweries are whirlpooling well above 180* for an incredibly long time. It takes forever to knock out huge batches of beer and those guys (well the best ones) aren’t getting vegetal, grassy flavors. These flavors have very little to do with whirlpool temps.

Pliny has significant additions at 90/45/30. It doesn’t have grassy or vegetal flavors.

I add ounces of hops at 20 and 5 as well as 60 minute additions and don’t get grassy/vegetal flavors.

pH is most likely the cause of most of your issues. If you’re using RO water and not adding any salts your mash pH is most likely in the 5.7-5.8 range. Which means your boil pH is as high if not higher. That’s bad. The higher your boil pH the more alpha extraction you’re getting. And the more extraction of vegetal type flavors you’ll get as well. Ideally you want your boil pH to be around 5.2 for maximum protein coagulation and your knockout pH should be closer to 5.0. Optimum flavor extraction happens within certain pH bands as well.

When dry hopping you are more likely to get vegetal/grassy flavors at lower temps but those temps are generally below 50*. The ideal dry hopping temp is 58-64ish degrees and that depends on the hop variety.

Get yourself a pH meter. It’s one of the most crucial pieces of equipment in brewing good beer. Listened to a great cB&B podcast with Chad Yakobsen. I believe he has his masters in brewing. He mentioned that his brewers will check gravity and pH 8 times between start of the mash and kettle full. Then who knows how many times throughout the boil as well as every gravity check throughout fermentation.

Water chemistry is not that hard. I’m horrible at math and was a marketing major, certainly no engineer or scientist. Download bru’n Water and buy a nice pH meter and learn how to use it. I guarantee your every one of your beers will get significantly better.

Try using Co2 extract for your 90 or 60 minute additions and keep the pellet additions to 20 minutes or less.

 

[Gravelscratcher]

Maybe LODO is the answer.
No, really I guess it's the PH.

 

[Blazinlow86]

God there is so much horrible information here...

You don’t need to chill your wort below 170* before adding whirlpool hops. Do you guys think that any large brewer can cool 30-60 bbls of beer from 212-170 in a respectable time? No. If you add any hops during the boil you can’t run wort through a heat X to get it to 170 from 212 without clogging it. You can brew high gravity and dilute with cold water to maybe get it to 190? Maybe, maybe 180. The point is many breweries are whirlpooling well above 180* for an incredibly long time. It takes forever to knock out huge batches of beer and those guys (well the best ones) aren’t getting vegetal, grassy flavors. These flavors have very little to do with whirlpool temps.

Pliny has significant additions at 90/45/30. It doesn’t have grassy or vegetal flavors.

I add ounces of hops at 20 and 5 as well as 60 minute additions and don’t get grassy/vegetal flavors.

pH is most likely the cause of most of your issues. If you’re using RO water and not adding any salts your mash pH is most likely in the 5.7-5.8 range. Which means your boil pH is as high if not higher. That’s bad. The higher your boil pH the more alpha extraction you’re getting. And the more extraction of vegetal type flavors you’ll get as well. Ideally you want your boil pH to be around 5.2 for maximum protein coagulation and your knockout pH should be closer to 5.0. Optimum flavor extraction happens within certain pH bands as well.

When dry hopping you are more likely to get vegetal/grassy flavors at lower temps but those temps are generally below 50*. The ideal dry hopping temp is 58-64ish degrees and that depends on the hop variety.

Get yourself a pH meter. It’s one of the most crucial pieces of equipment in brewing good beer. Listened to a great cB&B podcast with Chad Yakobsen. I believe he has his masters in brewing. He mentioned that his brewers will check gravity and pH 8 risks between start of the mash and kettle full. Then who knows how many times throughout the boil as well as every gravity check throughout fermentation.

Water chemistry is not that hard. I’m horrible at math and was a marketing major, certainly no engineer or scientist. Download bru’n Water and buy a nice pH meter and learn how to use it. I guarantee your every one of your beers will get significantly better.

Try using Co2 extract for your 90 or 60 minute additions and keep the pellet additions to 20 minutes or less.

The big boys are adjusting there hop timing and amount according to there system/process obviously. Cooling your wort accurately is part of the process of hitting you desired numbers and most importantly consistency. If you think the big boys just throw the hops in and see what happens I can assure you you have been misinformed. Cheers

 

[Blazinlow86]

To clarify as I posted previously this chilling timing can DEFINATELY make you brew bitter bombs. Just punch the numbers into any software to see for yourself. not sure this would give you grassyness but bland and bitter could be decsribed as grassy maybe

my bells 2 hearted recipe comes in a 55 ibu with a 3 min whirlpool time and with a 20 min whirlpool time it comes out at 85ibu... to me thats a pretty significant differance and worth a few minutes of time to compensate for

 

[Blazinlow86]

.

 

[couchsending]

The big boys are adjusting there hop timing and amount according to there system/process obviously. Cooling your wort accurately is part of the process of hitting you desired numbers and most importantly consistency. If you think the big boys just throw the hops in and see what happens I can assure you you have been misinformed. Cheers

Obviously

But plenty of people have been making great hoppy beers well before it was popular to drop wort temps before adding hops.

The grassy/vegetal flavors are not caused by whirlpooing at higher temps. Additional bitterness, maybe.. but that depends on other variables as well.

 

[couchsending]

Maybe LODO is the answer.
No, really I guess it's the PH.

Oxygen uptake is not the cause of grassy/vegetal flavors.

Cold side LODO practices will help you make better hoppy beers however. Hop aroma and overal hop impact is the first thing to go when beer is over exposed to Oxygen after fermentation has finished. Professional breweries go through great lengths to keep as much O2 at bay as possible. Especially when it comes to hoppy beers.

 

[Saboral]

The big boys are adjusting there hop timing and amount according to there system/process obviously. Cooling your wort accurately is part of the process of hitting you desired numbers and most importantly consistency. If you think the big boys just throw the hops in and see what happens I can assure you you have been misinformed. Cheers

I concur, this isn’t a matter of standing too long or temperature. This is high pH causing extraction of not only higher alpha acids but likely tannins and other undesirables.

I have not had a single grassy bitter bomb since I started water chemistry modifications. Need a good 5.4 pH with high sulfates and you’ll have a crisp IPA.

 

[Gravelscratcher]

Oxygen uptake is not the cause of grassy/vegetal flavors.

Cold side LODO practices will help you make better hoppy beers however. Hop aroma and overal hop impact is the first thing to go when beer is over exposed to Oxygen after fermentation has finished. Professional breweries go through great lengths to keep as much O2 at bay as possible. Especially when it comes to hoppy beers.

I was joking about LODO.
But thanks for lining me out in the PH.
I dont feel like brewing more spinach IPA's.

 

[couchsending]

I was joking about LODO.
But thanks for lining me out in the PH.
I dont feel like brewing more spinach IPA's.

Gotcha.. missed the sarcasm. My bad

 

[Blazinlow86]

Maybe I'm just missing misunderstanding what were after here. I can see ph causing a grassyness/ bitterness possibly. What I'm not understanding is the op is saying he pays no attention to how long his wort is kept near boiling after flameout and not doing anything to compensate for that. One of his examples was his two hearted clone recipe overly bitter. He's using beersmith and the default is set at 0 mins chilling. I tried my two hearted clone at the default 0 min setting and then at the 20min setting which is more similiar to process op described. It came out nearly double the ibu desired. How can adjusting the ph change that? And if it does wouldn't it be easier to adjust the chilling time to start then move onto ph?

 

[Gravelscratcher]

The problem is overpowering grassy flavor...all the hop flavor is grassy.
I'm ok w/ bitter, when its appropriate, but grassy & bitter is not a good combo.
Edit:
I cool the wort down, just have not been at my hop stands & whirlpool additions.
I usually cool it down after steeping/w-pool.
I'll probably change that too.
I just really did not realize how important PH & alkalinity were, in relation to late hop flavor.

 

[couchsending]

Maybe I'm just missing misunderstanding what were after here. I can see ph causing a grassyness/ bitterness possibly. What I'm not understanding is the op is saying he pays no attention to how long his wort is kept near boiling after flameout and not doing anything to compensate for that. One of his examples was his two hearted clone recipe overly bitter. He's using beersmith and the default is set at 0 mins chilling. I tried my two hearted clone at the default 0 min setting and then at the 20min setting which is more similiar to process op described. It came out nearly double the ibu desired. How can adjusting the ph change that? And if it does wouldn't it be easier to adjust the chilling time to start then move onto ph?

It came out nearly double the IBU in the software or you had it tested? I don’t put much faith in the softwear when it comes to bitterness, especially whirlpool amounts.

IBUs are pretty much a worthless measurement of bitterness at this point. Huge dry hopping loads have actually been tested to considerably reduce IBUs in beer.

I’ve seen studies where the beer only has hops added below 165* where supposedly no isomerization happens and IBUs still ended up in the measured 50 range.

I’ve also seen studies where reducing the wort from 212 to 190 for whirlpoolinb had a grand total of 3 less tested IBUs.

pH has a huge impact on extraction of bitterness when it comes to alpha acid. Optimum for bitternsss extraction is 5.4. Most likely OPs boil pH is closer to 5.7. And pH isn’t linear.

 

[Blazinlow86]

The problem is overpowering grassy flavor...all the hop flavor is grassy.
I'm ok w/ bitter, when its appropriate, but grassy & bitter is not a good combo.

Sorry I must of missread your original post as you were getting overly bitter and grassyness in your IPAs and was only pointing out that using the process you described your beers will always be much more bitter than designed and you can easily correct that in the software to match your process. Obviously if you prefer a 85 ibu 2 hearted to the originals 55 than all is good. I have no idea about the grassyness however I would try adjust your recipes correctly first as you never know. I've always fixed the things I know for certain are incorrect first otherwise you may be chasing it forever when that first thing was it. Cheers

 

[Blazinlow86]

It came out nearly double the IBU in the software or you had it tested? I don’t put much faith in the softwear when it comes to bitterness, especially whirlpool amounts.

IBUs are pretty much a worthless measurement of bitterness at this point. Huge dry hopping loads have actually been tested to considerably reduce IBUs in beer.

I’ve seen studies where the beer only has hops added below 165* where supposedly no isomerization happens and IBUs still ended up in the measured 50 range.

I’ve also seen studies where reducing the wort from 212 to 190 for whirlpoolinb had a grand total of 3 less tested IBUs.

pH has a huge impact on extraction of bitterness when it comes to alpha acid. Optimum for bitternsss extraction is 5.4. Most likely OPs boil pH is closer to 5.7. And pH isn’t linear.

I'm using bs3s estimates. The recipe I used as the example didnt use any whirlpooling hops so it's abit more straightforward. I believe boiling or holding near boiling all your hop additions for 10-20-40 mins longer then you planned will impart more bitterness to the end product. The op confirmed that's what he's been doing so I mentioned it. Turns out he's not concerned with the bitterness so my comments won't help much. Cheers

 

[Gravelscratcher]

I'm not getting 85 IBU's...I dont recall emphasizing bitterness as the primary concern. As stated earlier, bitter and grassy is a bad combo.
I've been brewing for awhile...I've just struggled with this issue too long/often.
Figured it was time to humble myself, and ask for help, in order to put it to bed.
Water chemistry is the 1 area I've not addressed, so I guess it's time to tackle that.
Consider myself a novice. I make some really good stuff, but I'm sure I have plenty to learn.

 

[Blazinlow86]

I'm not getting 85 IBU's...I dont recall emphasizing bitterness as the primary concern. As stated earlier, bitter and grassy is a bad combo.
I've been brewing for awhile...I've just struggled with this issue too long/often.
Figured it was time to humble myself, and ask for help, in order to put it to bed.
Water chemistry is the 1 area I've not addressed, so I guess it's time to tackle that.
Consider myself a novice. I make some really good stuff, but I'm sure I have plenty to learn.

As I already stated I originally thought you were chasing bitterness. I misread your original post.sorry for trying to help. You said you made a two hearted that had the same issue so I used that as the example as I have that already setup in beersmith.I was merely giving you a example as to how much difference the estimated ibu would be going from chilling immediately compared to waiting 20 mins. If you don't think these things make a difference great. All my ipas were also overly bitter without any real citrus hop flavors. I corrected my chilling process and it's no longer a issue. I've never not adjusted my ph so I have no idea if that makes a difference. Anyway good luck with your brews. I feel this is turning into a argument on whether attempting to predict ibus is worthwhile and for that reason I'm out. Lol

 

[Gravelscratcher]

No argument here.
I'm grateful for all advice...just trying to clarify any fuzzy understandings of what I'm trying to say.

 

[ba-brewer]

No salts...just purified drinking water.
yea, i’ve Been considering measuring PH and dialing it in.
Considering doing the distilled water, and dialing it in from there.
Don’t feel like sending in water samples and correcting it etc.

Edit:
Water chemistry is the next hurdle I need to tackle. I’ll be frank, it just seems like a pain (I live a busy life...career, wife, kids, blah blah blah).

Edit #2:
I did play w/ 5.2 stabilizer back in the day...that was a mistake. I did not like the way 5.2 stabilizer affected taste.

Just curious, what is purified water? When I see purified I am thinking distilled or RO.

Do you cold crash your beers and for how long? In the link from @JLeuck64 they mention dry hopping below 50F can give more grassy flavors. If you do a long cold crash maybe shorten it or pull the hops first.

Do you monitor the fermentor or the ambient temp of chamber while dry hopping? If you check ambient then maybe your beer is actually much cooler.

I went through the exact same grassy vegetable flavors in my IPA's shortly after switching over to kegging...

Funny change in flavor that I never ever picked up after years of bottling this IPA recipe. The only thing that changed in my process was switching over to kegging from bottling. So dry hopping the IPA was the same as when I was bottling, but after switching to kegging I started picking up this grassy flavor that only got worse as the beer aged.

I've moved all of my late additions and the dry hop additions to a hop stand now. So after I cool the wort down to say 170F I throw in the 5 min hop additions and the dry hop additions and let is steep for about 20 minutes. Then I chill until 70F and transfer to ferment bucket.

About the same time I started to do this I ran across this article from Spikebrewing Ask a Pro column. Dry Hop Temperatures is a really good article by Blaze Ruud from YCH Hops. He described exactly several of my experiences and shed some light on why it was happening.

Now my IPA's taste and smell like I would expect them too ( ;