I’m tired of making grassy gross IPA’s.

[Silver_Is_Money]

One of the batches I brewed in 2018 came out very grassy tasting. I cut corners with it and didn't filter off the trub and hops while transferring it to the fermenter, and then I let it sit in the fermenter for more than a month after fermentation was complete and before I finally got around to bottling it (during which time I was lagering it atop the hops and trub at 34 degrees). The grassiness eventually dissipated after about four months in the bottles, and it actually became quite good post that juncture.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Just wanted to say that I feel your pain. I love IPAs but just never seem to get an IPA with a fresh, clean hop aroma like I get from some of my favorite commercial varieties (West Coast Style IPAs). I brewed a Dogfish Head 60 minute clone once that was decent, but many of my IPAs are blah. I brew lots of really good beers, and have a Pale Ale that I really like (though it is not dry hopped or that hoppy).

Making a decent IPA will be on my 2019 Brew Year's Resolution list. Like you, I don't do any water treatment. I suspect that is part of my problem. The other parts might be hop combinations and figuring out the best flame-out/whirlpool/dry hop (in fermenter? in keg?) schedule.

 

[Blazinlow86]

Not to say that anybody is incorrect in their suggestions of salts/ph etc but you got to get the basics sorted first imho before those become the weakest link. As op noted he hasn't been paying attention to his chilling times or hops stand temps etc. That pretty much guarantees that in a best best case your always gonna come out at least slightly higher than your desired ibu and in the case of heavily late hopped brews extremely higher. And they won't have any fruity flavor as it's all been boiled off. You will just get a bland/bitter grassy taste. Cheers

 

[TxBigHops]

My temps did get lower than normal on this last one, a few times...just below 60. Like 56/57 to 60 or so, for the last week...which was when I DH’d. I DH’s the last 3 days in the primary (I keep the chest freezer in the garage). I didn’t get a heating pad yet, and I didn’t expect temps to get down early this season (I’m an hour North of Houston). What we call cold, is different than most of y’all.

I did just fill up a glass, and cleansed the pallet to take an honest taster.
It’s not as dramatic as some of the others, and I guess this one has the potential to come around. It suddenly doesn’t seem 1/2 bad.
I’m tasting some fruity backbone, and some of that veggie finish has faded. It’s not nearly as grassy as it was, when it was fresh in the keg.
Better than yesterday actually.
I’m finishing up on week 3 in the keg...hopefully I over reacted.

North of Houston? How far are you from Humble? Go see Preston at The Grain Cellar and take a sample. He's got an excellent palate and brews good beer. Better yet, join our home brew club, Rogue Brewers.

 

[TooManyTacos]

I've had this problem. I've told guys in my homebrew club that I can't make a good IPA, they all come out grassy. Turns out that my problem was that I was adding my dry hops straight into the fermenter without any type of bag. Within a few hours, they would be floating at the top, and quickly oxidize resulting in an IPA that is almost undrinkable due to grassy/vegetal flavors.


My advise to you would be to get a hop sack, and add the dry hops in there if you are not already. That fixed my problem.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I've had this problem. I've told guys in my homebrew club that I can't make a good IPA, they all come out grassy. Turns out that my problem was that I was adding my dry hops straight into the fermenter without any type of bag. Within a few hours, they would be floating at the top, and quickly oxidize resulting in an IPA that is almost undrinkable due to grassy/vegetal flavors.


My advise to you would be to get a hop sack, and add the dry hops in there if you are not already. That fixed my problem.

This makes good sense. Do you add something like marbles to the hop sack(s) to assure that they sink?

 

[TooManyTacos]

I don't know why I never thought of that, albeit I have been focusing on brewing a better lager recently. They still float with the sack, but only a small amount (maybe 1% of what used to) breaches the surface. I'll try to add some type of glass to help weigh it down and see if it makes it any better next IPA I brew.

 

[Blazinlow86]

I've had this problem. I've told guys in my homebrew club that I can't make a good IPA, they all come out grassy. Turns out that my problem was that I was adding my dry hops straight into the fermenter without any type of bag. Within a few hours, they would be floating at the top, and quickly oxidize resulting in an IPA that is almost undrinkable due to grassy/vegetal flavors.


My advise to you would be to get a hop sack, and add the dry hops in there if you are not already. That fixed my problem.

Interesting I've never heard of doing it that way. I've always just added them loose and never noticed that grassyness. Are you using a bucket? Hows the o2 getting into your fermentor? I generally purge with CO2 after opening the fermentor and generally only add the dryhops prior to the end of fermentation. Cheers

 

[Gravelscratcher]

North of Houston? How far are you from Humble? Go see Preston at The Grain Cellar and take a sample. He's got an excellent palate and brews good beer. Better yet, join our home brew club, Rogue Brewers.

I've picked up some supplies and ingredients from him in the past. You are correct...he's a really good guy. I would probably do all my business w/ him, if it was closer/more convenient.​

I live in Montgomery...Lake Conroe area. Humble is a pretty good hike, but I stop by over there whenever I'm in the area and have time.
I mostly get my stuff online or from the LHBS in The Woodlands (Ray). He's a character.
I actually thought of Preston, and taking him a sample. I think I'm getting an idea on the potential cause now, and some steps to prevent it from happening next time.
I also think that it is starting to fade some...which is a good sign. I think I'll hold on to it for a couple of weeks, and see if it improves. It's just kind of "Meh" at the moment.

Edit:
I actually would love to join y'all too. I just think I'm too far to really be very active.

 

[WBB]

bs3 shows 1 oz of centennial extracts 8 ibu from a 170f steep for 30 minutes and a 19 ibu from a 190f steep for 30 minutes. that 20f doubles the ibu of just that addition

What’s bs3?

 

[Blazinlow86]

beersmith 3

 

[Gravelscratcher]

Water chemistry is important but don't think it would cause vegetative issues. I would go with Distilled water on your next brew and use a water chemistry calculator to build your profile. It's pretty easy. You really only need Calcium chloride, gypsum and Lactic acid for PH adjustment. Non iodized salt and some Epsom is what I use. Since I am a BIAB brewer, I add all my additions in my strike water.

This is what I would like to do. use distilled water, know the additives to dial in the water for the style I'm brewing, and dump it in and roll.
I really don't have time for a chemistry class/project.
If I could locate something simple to tell me what to add to distilled water, for the style I'm brewing. Then I could Dial in the PH/chemistry as needed.
I would appreciate any suggestions for a simple resource that doesn't require me to get nerdy with water chemistry.

 

[Blazinlow86]

This is what I would like to do. use distilled water, know the additives to dial in the water for the style I'm brewing, and dump it in and roll.
I really don't have time for a chemistry class/project.
If I could locate something simple to tell me what to add to distilled water, for the style I'm brewing. Then I could Dial in the PH/chemistry as needed.
I would appreciate any suggestions for a simple resource that doesn't require me to get nerdy with water chemistry.

Easy you don't need to learn anything really. The software you're using probably has it built in. In beersmith you just click the choose Target profile and pick what you want. it'll tell you how much salts to add and also predict how much acid to add

 

[TxBigHops]

What’s bs3?

Beersmith ver 3, I assume.

 

[TxBigHops]

I've picked up some supplies and ingredients from him in the past. You are correct...he's a really good guy. I would probably do all my business w/ him, if it was closer/more convenient.​

I live in Montgomery...Lake Conroe area. Humble is a pretty good hike, but I stop by over there whenever I'm in the area and have time.
I mostly get my stuff online or from the LHBS in The Woodlands (Ray). He's a character.
I actually thought of Preston, and taking him a sample. I think I'm getting an idea on the potential cause now, and some steps to prevent it from happening next time.
I also think that it is starting to fade some...which is a good sign. I think I'll hold on to it for a couple of weeks, and see if it improves. It's just kind of "Meh" at the moment.

Edit:
I actually would love to join y'all too. I just think I'm too far to really be very active.

We'd love to have you, even if you can't make it every month. We've got a great group of homebrewers.

 

[Gravelscratcher]

Easy you don't need to learn anything really. The software you're using probably has it built in. In beersmith you just click the choose Target profile and pick what you want. it'll tell you how much salts to add and also predict how much acid to add

Ok, so here's what I get from BS3.
How does that translate to:
Gypsum, lactic acid, and calcium chloride?

 

[Blazinlow86]

Ahh sorry I've never used the mobile version. On the desktop version it adds all the total weight of the salts on the ingredients page. Maybe a mobile user can chime in

 

[Gravelscratcher]

I once had BS2 on my old laptop. I was on Craigslist, and clicked a link that fried that computer and lost it.
I just never got around to uploading the new version on my current PC, since my phone still has the app.
I'll be happy to buy it again, if it's real help w/ the water...otherwise the mobile app has done what I need.
Can you/someone post a screen shot example?

 

[brew703]

This is what I would like to do. use distilled water, know the additives to dial in the water for the style I'm brewing, and dump it in and roll.
I really don't have time for a chemistry class/project.
If I could locate something simple to tell me what to add to distilled water, for the style I'm brewing. Then I could Dial in the PH/chemistry as needed.
I would appreciate any suggestions for a simple resource that doesn't require me to get nerdy with water chemistry.

Bru N Water really isn't that involved. If I can do it anyone can. The download is free. Brewers Friend and BS3 also have water profiles but I've never used them. I strictly use Bru N Water.
As an example for a Bells Two Hearted using 8.6 gal water (5.75 gal into fermenter)
Yellow Bitter profile/ 100% Distilled
6 gram Gypsum
3 gram Calcium Chloride
3mL Lactic gets you to 5.3 pH
These additions will get you to:
Ca>>68.2 / SO4 103.2/ CI 44.6

 

[Saboral]

So I know it’s rehopping (HA) what’s already been said here, but I think its either your hops source/freshness or your water profile. Now I think I read that you’re in SoCal so I highly doubt your source of hops is stale unless you’re buying from bulk container at an LHBS. We had to convince one of our local shops that they needed to stop this practice because most of their hops were giving an oxidized or even cheesy character to beer. You can’t keep hops in a wonton soup container for any amount of time and expect to have freshness.

Now setting hop freshness aside. You mention you make great stouts. Well the water profile for a great stout and a great IPA are not all that similar. Water higher in alkalinity and low in sulfates makes a good stout, but I’ve had less than stellar IPAs when I didn’t do water chemistry.

I would honestly say I didn’t have any good IPA until I started modifying my water. Primarily focusing on removing alkalinity to reduce harshness/astringency, increasing sulfates to bring out a cleaner/sharper hop flavor, and using chloride to increase the perception of body without ending up with a higher FG and a “sticky” thick beer.

One note on sulfates, several of the brewing water calculation sheets I’ve used including Bru’n Water have the sulfates for Burton Upon Trent water (traditional IPA water profile) at something on the order of 600 - 800 ppm. Unless you’re trying to make an ExLax IPA I don’t recommend sulfates above 250-300ppm. Above those levels you are making a potent laxative.

 

[TxBigHops]

Bru N Water really isn't that involved. If I can do it anyone can. The download is free. Brewers Friend and BS3 also have water profiles but I've never used them. I strictly use Bru N Water.
As an example for a Bells Two Hearted using 8.6 gal water (5.75 gal into fermenter)
Yellow Bitter profile/ 100% Distilled
6 gram Gypsum
3 gram Calcium Chloride
3mL Lactic gets you to 5.3 pH
These additions will get you to:
Ca>>68.2 / SO4 103.2/ CI 44.6

I tried real hard to use BruNWater, but there was some part that just wasn't intuitive - I couldn't get it to work for me. Since I use Brewers Friend for all my recipes, I just use their water profile, and it seems to be easier to me. I may revisit BruNWater one day. When I do, I'll come back to HBT and get some advice.

 

[Gravelscratcher]

We'd love to have you, even if you can't make it every month. We've got a great group of homebrewers.

Thanks BigHop...I'll check it out.

 

[passedpawn]

In your next batch, consider splitting it in half and skipping the dry hops for one of them. It'll still be good beer, but you'll know if that's the source of your problem. I'd suspect it's the dry hops.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I tried real hard to use BruNWater, but there was some part that just wasn't intuitive - I couldn't get it to work for me.

This video was the best overview that I have seen. It is a few years old, but still looks accurate. I like the BeerSmith 1-click method, but Bru'N Water looks fairly easy once you get the hang of it. Learning and experimenting with water chemistry is on my todo list.

http://brulosophy.com/2014/09/29/brewing-water-primer-using-beersmith-and-brun-water/

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I still recall A.J. deLange once stating that when he asked a bunch of Breweries about their water chemistry routines the most common reply he got back in return was effectively: "You homebrewers seem to worry a lot more about things like that than we do!".

It would not surprise me to discover that most breweries use the same water profile across all of their recipes, and it further would not surprise me if they typically use their local community water source straight up sans for chlorine/chloramine removal and some nominal level of varying pH adjustment to address alkalinity.

 

[brewbama]

I still recall A.J. deLange once stating that when he asked a bunch of Breweries about their water chemistry routines the most common reply he got back in return was effectively: "You homebrewers seem to worry a lot more about things like that than we do!".

It would not surprise me to discover that most breweries use the same water profile across all of their recipes, and it further would not surprise me if they typically use their local community water source straight up sans for chlorine/chloramine removal and some nominal level of varying pH adjustment to address alkalinity.

I know three breweries here that filter and treat for pH. Nothing more added to create profiles. At least that’s what they told me when I asked.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I know three breweries here that filter and treat for pH. Nothing more added to create profiles. At least that’s what they told me when I asked.

I'd bet this is the brewery norm. No water profiles. And better and more consistent beers than most homebrewers will ever dream of achieving. If so, then water profiles are highly overrated. They are almost becoming a religion for some homebrewers.

 

[thehaze]

I also brew IPAs once in a while, as I am losing interest in the style.

But when I brew a West Coast IPA, I usually keep it simple: Aprox. 6% ABV, 50-60 IBUs, Nottingham for dry yeast and anything clean or juicy for the yeast, when using liquid. As for hops, whatever tickles me pink. Grainbill, usually 1 or 2 base malts.

I dry hop with plenty of hops, and don't get any grassy flavours. I also get tons of citrus and fruit. Citrussy aroma and flavour, and grapefruit juice and rind are so easy to get with hops. My IPAs use aprox. 3 oz hops for late boil additions + 6 oz hops for 30 minutes at 155-154F + 6 to 8 oz for the dry hopping at room temperature ( 68 to 74F ) for max. 2, maybe 2 and a half days. This is for 5.5-6 gallons of finished product. And I bottle. At the same time, I do treat my water and adjust mash and boil pH. I shoot for a mash pH between 5 and 5.4, depending on style. Some yeast will also take pH lower than others in the finished beer, like Nottingham, which is why I continue using it.

Grassy and vegetal hop matter are two things I got a few times, and usually when the dry hop amount exceeded 10 oz hops for 5-6 gallons. Large amounts of dry hop will also raise the pH and that's never good.

You say Cryo hops brews do not suffer from it. Cryo hops contain less green, vegetal matter from the hops if compared with pellets, meaning the possibility of getting more vegetal flavours from pellets is higher, but still...It's also weird you do not treat your water,and yet your NEIPAs, turn out good while ol' traditional IPAs become grassy.

 

[Gravelscratcher]

You say Cryo hops brews do not suffer from it. Cryo hops contain less green, vegetal matter from the hops if compared with pellets, meaning the possibility of getting more vegetal flavours from pellets is higher, but still...It's also weird you do not treat your water,and yet your NEIPAs, turn out good while ol' traditional IPAs become grassy.

I brewed both my NEIPA (w/ Cryo) and all my IPA’s basically the same (in terms of late hop additions), and the NEIPA was stellar, and the IPA’s were horrible.
All my other beer styles have been very good to awesome.
What I’m getting from this is:
1). It’s related to my late hop additions
2). Cryo Hops don’t produce the same result as normal hops (there’s less grassiness to them by nature).
3). I’m pretty sure it has more to do w/ my flame-out hop additions being put in too hot, combined w/ standard hop pellets (Cryo Hops don’t react the same, as previously stated).
4). Not sure if my dry hops or water profile are playing a big role (yet).

Adjustments:
I plan to start focusing on water PH, by taking distilled water, and adding salts/gypsum/lactic acid to dial PH, and using BeerSmith as a simple guide.

I also plan to make sure I don’t add my flame out hops in too early, after the boil. Make sure I get them in below 180...probably 170ish.

Probably going to leave my dry hop additions alone, until I’ve eliminated the other 2 potential causes 1st. I don’t think I’m doing anything different than most people w/ my DH additions.

I’ll be honest...I think my “too hot” flameout hop additions are the primary culprit.

 

[dad23ds]

I've picked up some supplies and ingredients from him in the past. You are correct...he's a really good guy. I would probably do all my business w/ him, if it was closer/more convenient.​

I live in Montgomery...Lake Conroe area. Humble is a pretty good hike, but I stop by over there whenever I'm in the area and have time.
I mostly get my stuff online or from the LHBS in The Woodlands (Ray). He's a character.
I actually thought of Preston, and taking him a sample. I think I'm getting an idea on the potential cause now, and some steps to prevent it from happening next time.
I also think that it is starting to fade some...which is a good sign. I think I'll hold on to it for a couple of weeks, and see if it improves. It's just kind of "Meh" at the moment.

Edit:
I actually would love to join y'all too. I just think I'm too far to really be very active.

Howdy from another Montgomery brewer.