I’m tired of making grassy gross IPA’s.

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Gravelscratcher

Gravelscratcher

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Alright, this is problem I’ve been experiencing with most of my IPA’s...for a long time.

I get a grassy/veggie bitter flavor, with none of the grapefruit, pine, tropical...(the good stuff) from my hops (irrespective of the recipe)...and it doesn’t get better w/ time. All the typical off flavor descriptions (from brewing mistakes) don’t seem to fit what I’m experiencing.

I can brew a stout, and it’s perfect. I can brew a NEiPA with Cryo Hops, and it’s great. I can brew cream ales and steam beers...you get the point.
The minute I try and make an IPA or a Hoppy Pale, with standard pellet hops, I get this grassy vegetable bitter thing.
For the life of me, I can’t figure it out.

I am using a chest freezer and an ink-bird to control my temperature. I’m careful w/ hot side and cold side oxygen. I quit using tap water, and went to buying purified drinking water. I’m ultra clean and sanitized. My mash temp’s are in the 150’s. I bought a new fermenter...and so on.
What sucks is, I love IPA’s and NEIPA’s. I want to make IPA’s, and enjoy some of my favorite beers and experiment with interesting recipe ideas, but all I get is grassy, gross, bitter. They literally all taste the same...doesn’t matter what I do.

I can’t figure it out, and I’m about to only brew w/ Cryo-Hops, because that’s the only real success I’ve had w/ brewing IPAs (the NEIPA I made). It was amazing by the way.

The only thing I haven’t tried, is getting scientific w/ my water and PH levels. But I don’t think that’s the issue here.

Anyway, this is pretty much my last resort. It’s worth my pride to just admit it, if someone can help me figure it out.
 
If you are making grassy, piney, resinous, turpentiney, smelly, esophagus eating, gasoline flavored, generally crappy IPA's, it sounds like you are doing all the right things and making them perfectly. That's what 99% of them taste and smell like.

Keep drinking them! You'll have a man bun and a neck beard in no time.

:)
 
I know what a good IPA is, and I ain't making any.
I'm about to brew a Kolsch, with 1oz each of all the nobles.
I dont want to, if it tastes like boiled spinach.
 
Yeah, good IPAs shouldn't taste like what you're describing. I'm drinking an IPA right now made with Columbus and El Dorado that's got a great flavor, party citrus and part pine/pepper. Not grassy at all. It's interesting your NEIPA turned out great but you're IPAs aren't. If you're buying purified water are you adding back any brewing salts?
 
I tried to clone 2 Hearted, and it sucks...its been in the keg about 3 weeks now. I'll give it some more time, but I expect I'll be dumping it.
 
Sbe2 said:
What’s your hop schedule?
Click to expand...
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20181228_201605.jpeg

I put my 60 minute addition in a little early...kinda a first wort addition. Whirlpooled the flame out hops for about 15 or so.
 
Hmm. If I were to brew an IPA I would use that schedule. So we may have to play 20 questions.

Do you keg or bottle?

Have you used any other hop combos with the same result?
 
If you want grapefruit, that's what my first attempt at an IPA tastes like. It was not a great beer, but was very hoppy without being grassy or overly bitter. Hops schedule (for 4 gallons) was:
1 oz - Dr. Rudi, Type: Pellet, AA: 8.5, Use: Boil for 35 min, IBU: 31.76
1 oz - Dr. Rudi, Type: Pellet, AA: 8.5, Use: Boil for 15 min, IBU: 19.02
2 oz - Cascade, Type: Pellet, AA: 6.2, Use: Dry Hop for 7 days

I think the grapefruit note was mostly the Cascade. I've since heard that maybe I got lucky with the 7 day dry hops; that's a little too long to leave 'em in there.
 
Sbe2 said:
Hmm. If I were to brew an IPA I would use that schedule. So we may have to play 20 questions.

Do you keg or bottle?

Have you used any other hop combos with the same result?
Click to expand...
I keg. I use keg cleaner and clean my lines.
My pre carb samples already tasted like that, before I kegged it though.

Have had the same results, with virtually all my IPA's. They pretty much all taste the same.

Cryo hops worked out though...go figure
 
Maybe you are just sensitive to whatever hop oils are isomerized(not sure if that’s the term) during the boil. Kinda like how some ppl can’t stand cilantro.

Also, You could drop/remove your DH addition after 24 hrs so you don’t over extract.

For me, I can really pick up on that band aid taste from yeast. Whether it be from chloramine or stress.
 
I think it's related to the late hop additions.
Both flame out and DH.
It's not just me though...others have tasted it in the brews too.
It's just hard to diagnose.
Need a BJCP judge to help me figure it out.
 
SoCal-Doug said:
If you are making grassy, piney, resinous, turpentiney, smelly, esophagus eating, gasoline flavored, generally crappy IPA's, it sounds like you are doing all the right things and making them perfectly. That's what 99% of them taste and smell like.

Keep drinking them! You'll have a man bun and a neck beard in no time.

:)
Click to expand...

Ohooo not a kind response but one somoneone would Expect from SoCal.
Advice from NorCal would be to change your hop supplier/ source!
Go direct through a grower
In Yakama. Brew it all fresh!
Cheers [emoji482]
 
Work your hops backwards. Dry hop. whorlpool 180 f for an hour gives you about half the ibus as a 60 min addition, and use soft hops,aroma low AA. All about post boil. To get the good stuff. Then add a different hop for 60 something just for clean bitterness to balance. I have been using hop shots for 60 and citra or Cascade or Galaxy for whirlpool. Hop hash was great for dry hops. It just the lupulin powder. There is no veggies. Think post kettle additions. Think backwards.
 
What temperature are you dry hopping at and at what point......

I have read various things that mention dry hopping at lower temperatures can give you grassy flavors.
 
Making my own water profile from distilled fixed my exact problem you're having. I could make good malty beers, but could never get that delicious aroma and crispness from my IPA's until I got into water chemistry.
 
My temps did get lower than normal on this last one, a few times...just below 60. Like 56/57 to 60 or so, for the last week...which was when I DH’d. I DH’s the last 3 days in the primary (I keep the chest freezer in the garage). I didn’t get a heating pad yet, and I didn’t expect temps to get down early this season (I’m an hour North of Houston). What we call cold, is different than most of y’all.

I did just fill up a glass, and cleansed the pallet to take an honest taster.
It’s not as dramatic as some of the others, and I guess this one has the potential to come around. It suddenly doesn’t seem 1/2 bad.
I’m tasting some fruity backbone, and some of that veggie finish has faded. It’s not nearly as grassy as it was, when it was fresh in the keg.
Better than yesterday actually.
I’m finishing up on week 3 in the keg...hopefully I over reacted.
 
Last edited:
TobyG32 said:
Making my own water profile from distilled fixed my exact problem you're having. I could make good malty beers, but could never get that delicious aroma and crispness from my IPA's until I got into water chemistry.
Click to expand...
That’s interesting. I’ve been fighting getting into the water chemistry...wanted it to just work out.
I’m in too deep to pull out now...guess I may have to go all the way. :0
 
Gravelscratcher said:
I think it's related to the late hop additions.
Both flame out and DH.
It's not just me though...others have tasted it in the brews too.
It's just hard to diagnose.
Need a BJCP judge to help me figure it out.
Click to expand...
Are you accounting in your software for your whirlpooling temps and time. When I started brewing ALL the beers I made with late hops came out way more bitter then they should have been. Turned out i wasn't compensating for my process and was just following standard timings. As a example say someone post a recipe with a ton of flameout hops and there process allows them to chill and be in the fermentor in 5 mins from flamout. Now say your process includes whirlpooling for 15 mins with a 10 min rest. You then run thru your cfc chiller into the fermentor but you do larger batch sizes and your ground waters warmer so it takes another 20 mins to get to the fermentor. Your wort would could have stayed at 180 degrees for 45 minutes longer than the other brewers batch did and your wort could come out 3x as high a ibu. Something to consider as I only figured it out after realizing it was only the brew with heavy late hops having this issue. Cheers
 
Blazinlow86 said:
Are you accounting in your software for your whirlpooling temps and time. When I started brewing ALL the beers I made with late hops came out way more bitter then they should have been. Turned out i wasn't compensating for my process and was just following standard timings. As a example say someone post a recipe with a ton of flameout hops and there process allows them to chill and be in the fermentor in 5 mins from flamout. Now say your process includes whirlpooling for 15 mins with a 10 min rest. You then run thru your cfc chiller into the fermentor but you do larger batch sizes and your ground waters warmer so it takes another 20 mins to get to the fermentor. Your wort would could have stayed at 180 degrees for 45 minutes longer than the other brewers batch did and your wort could come out 3x as high a ibu. Something to consider as I only figured it out after realizing it was only the brew with heavy late hops having this issue. Cheers
Click to expand...
You know, I’ve never paid any real attention to that. I’m still learning about whirlpool additions. I didn’t realize temperature was that important for flameout hops.
It’s hot most of the time, so it can take awhile to cool the wort down here.
I’m in the process of getting a pre-chiller, to accompany the wort chiller.
I’ve been putting the kettle in an ice water filled swamp bucket, and moving indoors during cool down. It’s worked better than the wort chiller.
Still takes a good 20 to 30 minutes or so to cool.
I’ve been whirlpooling just after flameout, so I guess I need to cool it down faster for whirlpool? What’s a good temp for w-pool?

Edit:
Not to mention that whirlpool addition was 30 minutes. They were in there awhile before I chilled to below 70.
 
Last edited:
I would suggest doing some brews with a less total different hops. Not necessarily a SMASH brew but something with only 1 or 2 hops to try to pinpoint which one is making the flavors you dislike.

Also. I think roughly around 175-F is the sweet spot for hop-stands.
 
On a serious note (no more man bun and neckbeard jokes, at least on this thread)... here's my list in order of probability (most to least) based on some of your descriptions

1. water chemistry
2. crap hop source
2A. unintended isomerization
3. post-pitch oxygenation (O2 is bad on any beer)
4. post-dry hop oxygenation (O2 is really bad on hop oils)
5. light struck (it's a stretch, but I have to throw it out there. had a friend once put his clear carboy where the sun hit it daily, God was that beer nasty)
6. type of hop versus grains and/or yeast selection

I've judged a ton of IPA's, some in 300+ entry competitions. One in maybe ten did NOT have multiple faults. Many almost cause an involuntary personal protein spill. The only categories with more faults than IPA's are the very light and clean styles where the brewer can't hide anything, and every fault shines right through.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for all your input.
Even if this brew comes around, I received some good pointers...appreciate all of you. Cheers
 
id say if your not paying much attention to those temps and timings ( as i was not) you should start there as it can make a HUGE differance. i agree with papz that the 170ish range is were your out of the danger zone for picking up major ibus. most recipes that have flameout hops are assuming your chilling right away. if your process doesnt allow that then you can tailor your timings to account. you should boil up 5 gallons of water (or whatever your end of boil volume is) then accuratly time how long it takes to consistantly chill that to 170f. if it takes 15 minutes you may want to delay all your boil additions 15 mins to compensate. if your recipe calls for flameout hops you would really add them 15 mins after flameout again to compensate. also add any whirlpool hops once you reach the 170f mark so you dont pickup the ibus from them. hopefully this makes some sense and of course these are somewhat general numbers as examples. i whirlpool chill thru a 1/2" cfc chiller back into my kettle now which allows me to get 18 gallons down to 170f in about 2 minutes from flameout and because my system electric with pid control i can control these temps very accurately. its made a EPIC differance . i almost gave up honestly. cheers
 
SoCal-Doug said:
On a serious note (no more man bun and neckbeard jokes, at least on this thread)... here's my list in order of probability (most to least) based on some of your descriptions

1. water chemistry
2. crap hop source
2A. unintended isomerization
3. post-pitch oxygenation (O2 is bad on any beer)
4. post-dry hop oxygenation (O2 is really bad on hop oils)
5. light struck (it's a stretch, but I have to throw it out there. had a friend once put his clear carboy where the sun hit it daily, God was that beer nasty)
6. type of hop versus grains and/or yeast selection

I've judged a ton of IPA's, some in 300+ entry competitions. One in maybe ten did NOT have multiple faults. Many almost cause an involuntary personal protein spill. The only categories with more faults than IPA's are the very light and clean styles where the brewer can't hide anything, and every fault shines right through.
Click to expand...
We’re good SoCal...I knew you were kidding around.
 
Gravelscratcher said:
Alright, this is problem I’ve been experiencing with most of my IPA’s...for a long time.

I get a grassy/veggie bitter flavor, with none of the grapefruit, pine, tropical...(the good stuff) from my hops (irrespective of the recipe)...and it doesn’t get better w/ time. All the typical off flavor descriptions (from brewing mistakes) don’t seem to fit what I’m experiencing.

I can brew a stout, and it’s perfect. I can brew a NEiPA with Cryo Hops, and it’s great. I can brew cream ales and steam beers...you get the point.
The minute I try and make an IPA or a Hoppy Pale, with standard pellet hops, I get this grassy vegetable bitter thing.
For the life of me, I can’t figure it out.

I am using a chest freezer and an ink-bird to control my temperature. I’m careful w/ hot side and cold side oxygen. I quit using tap water, and went to buying purified drinking water. I’m ultra clean and sanitized. My mash temp’s are in the 150’s. I bought a new fermenter...and so on.
What sucks is, I love IPA’s and NEIPA’s. I want to make IPA’s, and enjoy some of my favorite beers and experiment with interesting recipe ideas, but all I get is grassy, gross, bitter. They literally all taste the same...doesn’t matter what I do.

I can’t figure it out, and I’m about to only brew w/ Cryo-Hops, because that’s the only real success I’ve had w/ brewing IPAs (the NEIPA I made). It was amazing by the way.

The only thing I haven’t tried, is getting scientific w/ my water and PH levels. But I don’t think that’s the issue here.

Anyway, this is pretty much my last resort. It’s worth my pride to just admit it, if someone can help me figure it out.
Click to expand...
You mentioned purified drinking water but you didn't mention brewing salts. Did you add any?
 
bs3 shows 1 oz of centennial extracts 8 ibu from a 170f steep for 30 minutes and a 19 ibu from a 190f steep for 30 minutes. that 20f doubles the ibu of just that addition
 
urg8rb8 said:
You mentioned purified drinking water but you didn't mention brewing salts. Did you add any?
Click to expand...
No salts...just purified drinking water.
yea, i’ve Been considering measuring PH and dialing it in.
Considering doing the distilled water, and dialing it in from there.
Don’t feel like sending in water samples and correcting it etc.

Edit:
Water chemistry is the next hurdle I need to tackle. I’ll be frank, it just seems like a pain (I live a busy life...career, wife, kids, blah blah blah).

Edit #2:
I did play w/ 5.2 stabilizer back in the day...that was a mistake. I did not like the way 5.2 stabilizer affected taste.
 
Last edited:
Gravelscratcher said:
No salts...just purified drinking water.
yea, i’ve Been considering measuring PH and dialing it in.
Considering doing the distilled water, and dialing it in from there.
Don’t feel like sending in water samples and correcting it etc.
Click to expand...
I use RO water, Brunwater, and just bought a .01g precision scale. I use gypsum, calcium chloride, lactic acid, and baking soda for my water additions.

I'm pretty sure this is your problem.
 
Gravelscratcher said:
No salts...just purified drinking water.
yea, i’ve Been considering measuring PH and dialing it in.
Considering doing the distilled water, and dialing it in from there.
Don’t feel like sending in water samples and correcting it etc.

Edit:
Water chemistry is the next hurdle I need to tackle. I’ll be frank, it just seems like a pain (I live a busy life...career, wife, kids, blah blah blah).

Edit #2:
I did play w/ 5.2 stabilizer back in the day...that was a mistake. I did not like the way 5.2 stabilizer affected taste.
Click to expand...

Honestly, I think you'll find that doing some basic water chemistry is not a big deal at all and it can make a huge difference. Grab a good cheap or free utility like Bru'n Water, spend $5 at your LHBS on some Gypsum and Calcium Chloride, and you're most of the way there. If you don't want to invest in a pH meter, you can start with Distilled or RO water and just trust Bru'n Water's calculations. In my experience, with very few exceptions, my mash pH measurements are within .1 of the estimates from Bru'n Water.

Good luck!
 
I went through the exact same grassy vegetable flavors in my IPA's shortly after switching over to kegging...

Funny change in flavor that I never ever picked up after years of bottling this IPA recipe. The only thing that changed in my process was switching over to kegging from bottling. So dry hopping the IPA was the same as when I was bottling, but after switching to kegging I started picking up this grassy flavor that only got worse as the beer aged.

I've moved all of my late additions and the dry hop additions to a hop stand now. So after I cool the wort down to say 170F I throw in the 5 min hop additions and the dry hop additions and let is steep for about 20 minutes. Then I chill until 70F and transfer to ferment bucket.

About the same time I started to do this I ran across this article from Spikebrewing Ask a Pro column. Dry Hop Temperatures is a really good article by Blaze Ruud from YCH Hops. He described exactly several of my experiences and shed some light on why it was happening.

Now my IPA's taste and smell like I would expect them too ( ;
 
Good stuff there.
You and Blazin have got me thinking about those flameout hop temps.
And it's an easy thing to change/pay attention to
Appreciate that.

Edit:
I think it's time to move forward with some improvements to my routine.
Water adjustments and late hop temperatures are 2 areas I've been lacking.
 

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