How much water and grain do I need to get a 7L wort?

[Ali01]

I want to make a porter
I can use a maximum of 7L wort in my fermenter, but I still don't know how much water and grain to start with
Because I know some water will be absorbed by the grains and hops, and some will evaporate during the boil.
What is the grain/L ratio to get a rich wort? And in that grain/L ratio, is the L the starting water or is it the total volume of the wort?

 

[hotbeer]

You really won't know until you actually do your mash and boil. Then you'll find out what those are if you keep track of all the water, grist and other stuff you use. I generally weigh everything including the water.

Grain absorption is probably the one most constant number that we all will have. But I don't even use that for anything or even really know what mine is. The other parts of the process can have one getting more or less water into the FV are more variable to the individual.

Your grain/water ratio to get a rich wort will really be the thing that depends on your exact process and the crush of your grain. Evaporation loss during boil will also be variable to your equipment and other things. My loss from evaporation is much higher than what's commonly recommended by others. I think because my boil kettle is much wider for it's volume than others.

All these things can be corrected on the fly if you have hydrometer or refractometer to determine the SG of your wort at various times. If at the end of boil your SG is higher than your expected OG, then you can dilute with water. If it's lower SG, then you can boil longer, though that might have a effect on the late hop additions to your boil that are mostly for flavor and aroma.

If you are using a kit, then just go by what the kit suggests and make certain to keep good notes about all the measurements of everything. You can calculate the numbers then for what you are asking after the fact. Then you'll know for the next batch. Although those might change as you get better.

If you use a beer recipe app such as the one linked from this site at the top of this page, then you can play with the efficiency number to match what your efficiency is... once you know. And then it'll adjust the amounts of the fermentable ingredients to match the specific gravity to what ever your actual recipe calls for.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/calculator

 

[IslandLizard]

Brewer's Friend has a recipe formulator as well as many calculators.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/calculator
Here's a decent article on how to determine the amount of water needed:
https://byo.com/article/calculating-water-usage/
In short, you'd calculate backward:
Target: 7 Liters of (finished) wort in fermenter

+ Kettle "losses." This is mainly 1. evaporation during the boil and 2. wort left behind in kettle with the trub. For example, 3 liters evaporated after an hour boil and 1/2 a liter left with trub in the kettle. That would make it 7+ 3.5 = 10.5 liters.

+ Grain absorption - typically 1.04 L/Kg. This varies with the amount of grain used, and if you squeeze the bag after mashing and sparging. For example, 2 Kg of grist will absorb roughly 2 liters of wort. If you squeeze it tightly you may reduce that to 1.5 liters. That would make it 10.5 + 2 = 12.5 liters or 10.5 + 1.5 = 12 liters after squeezing.

 

[eliastheodosis]

Both @hotbeer and @IslandLizard gave very good advice so I won't repeat that. I'll point out a couple extra things I don't think I saw, though.

First, to be as consistent as possible. Learn your process and be sure you make things like kettle losses and bag squeezing as consistent as you can. Always try to leave about the same amount of trub/wort in the kettle and always try to squeeze or drain the bag the same amount each time. It will help you figure out your numbers and change your variables to get the outcome you want. After you brew a few times and start getting familiar with all your numbers you'll learn where to adjust.

Second, for your first brew or two you just need to plug in your best guess for most numbers and then adjust accordingly. You can test with water to check the dead spaces with your equipment. By dead spaces I mean areas in your equipment where wort will be left over when you transfer. Put water in your kettle and then transfer it out. However much you can't transfer out will roughly be your "loss" that doesn't make it to your fermentor. Just like IslandLizard mentioned above. Other things like grain absorption depend on many factors like the type of malt, how it is crushed, how you treat it (like how hard you squeeze the bag or if you squeeze it at all), etc. Use your best guess for grain absorption and then measure your volumes during the process to see if it absorbed more or less water than expected. Adjust accordingly.

Third, if you want to make a rich wort (I'm guessing you mean a higher gravity wort here) then you will need to use more grain. I'm sure you know that. The larger amount of grain will absorb more water. They talk about that above too. So if you use more grain to make a richer wort then you also need to add more water, too, because the larger amount of grain will absorb more water. Brewing is a large equation and if you change one variable it usually means you have to change other variables too.

Last, don't be too worried about getting 7L exactly for your first brew. You won't know many of these answers until you actually brew a couple times. Make your best guesses for all of these numbers and try to get as close as possible. If you are slightly under then it will still be fine. If you are slightly over then just don't add all of it to the fermentor. Measure what's left over or how short you are and use that to adjust for the next time. Like hotbeer mentioned above, you can adjust quite a bit of this during the process if you are pretty far off. Just take detailed notes for at least your first several brews. Record your initial numbers, how much you adjust, etc.

Most important, don't let it worry you! It gets much easier after a few brews. Good luck!

 

[schmurf]

You also need some head space in the fermenter, so if 7 liter is your target volume I'd say that your fermenter needs to be of size 10 liter.

 

[IslandLizard]

Here's another "volumes" calculator:
https://brewstock.com/chartsandtools/brewingwatervolumes/
It gives a good overview while including hints to minimize those "losses.'
Mind, evaporation (of water) is not a real loss, it's a side effect of something you gain: concentrating your wort, making it "thicker!"

 

[Ali01]

@schmurf @eliastheodosis @hotbeer @IslandLizard
I appreciate all the replies, I will read that article and make use of the notes, considering on your options, I will start with about 10 liters of water and I'll see how that goes, I'll keep note of all the numbers for my next batches, just one more thing, how much grain do I need to for that high gravity wort? I know it all depends on many factors, but I need some numbers to start with, like how much grain do I need to add to this 7L wort? I mean what's the usual grain/L ratio?

 

[hotbeer]

Even guessing it depends on what the OG is of that high gravity wort. If you are talking really big beer of an OG in the 1.010 or higher then that's going to be a lot more. And brewing big beers isn't something I'd recommend to anyone that hasn't first just done more normal beers with a OG of 1.050 - 1.070.

To increase your OG so much for a really big beer (high ABV) with just malts alone will have some impact on other things about your beer.

For a beer I made recently that had a OG of 1.060 and finished at 1.008 for a ABV of just under 7% I used about .23 kg of 2 row base malt for every liter of water/wort that went into the FV... if I converted from my pounds and gallons correctly.

However I mill my own grain pretty fine and get more out of my malts that some might if they have the grain milled by a LHBS or online brew supply.

If you are not using a kit, then I'd highly recommend you at least find a recipe. Just blindly mashing your own grains and fermenting them will give you alcohol, but probably not decent tasting unless you are just lucky.

When you find that recipe, plug the number in the beer recipe builders, many of which have a free trial version and see what it shows you for efficiency. If it's up in the 80 - 90 percent range, then you might not get that with your malts if they aren't milled the same as the person that made that recipe.

 

[IslandLizard]

just one more thing, how much grain do I need to for that high gravity wort?

Many commercially available (diastatic) base malts have an extract potential of 35-37 points per pound per gallon (abbrev: ppg).*
That's about the maximum one could get, eeking out every possible sugar during the mash, including lautering and sparging as thoroughly as one can.

in the real world, counting on a good brewhouse efficiency of around 85%, doing everything right, you would obtain around 30-32 ppg.
Small mashes can get a tad (2-3 points) higher by squeezing or pressing the mash bag and such, leaving less wort (and thus, sugars) behind.

If you want the make a high gravity wort, for example, 7 liters with an original gravity (OG) of 1.085 going into your fermenter, you'd need around 3 kg of (diastatic) malt.

* If you're malting at home, Diastatic Power (DP) may well be much lower, but it's fine as long as they can fully convert themselves.

Note:
If you can obtain "high diastatic" commercial malt (DP > 80-120), or malt something like that on your own, you could use a portion, 50% or even more, of non-diastatic "adjuncts:" such as plain (unmalted) wheat, oats, etc., whatever grain is widely available in your region. Adjuncts need to be milled rather finely, and possibly pre-cooked/boiled or cereal mashed to gelatinize the starches before adding to the mash. That's an advanced technique, though, so keep idea that for much later.

 

[eliastheodosis]

I think we were all typing at the same time I made a rough grain bill for a 1.070 wort into the fermentor Something like this for grain would get you a roughly 7% abv porter. Please note that the base grain is in kilograms and the rest are in grams.

2kg - Simpsons Maris Otter
140g - Simpsons Crystal Medium
110g - Simpsons Chocolate Malt
85g - Simpsons Roasted Barley

@Ali01 - This is really HIGHLY dependent on many factors that we don't know for sure like what kind of malt you have, how it's milled, etc. We are all guessing. My idea of a high gravity is probably not as high as most people here, too. That's why I suggested a grain bill for a 7% beer I would agree with @hotbeer that you shouldn't try to make a really high abv beer for your first brew. It's challenging to brew big beers like that and more things could go wrong. I would start with something like 7% or below. It will still be tasty and it will be a good learning experience for you. I think brewing a really big beer to start is just asking for things to go really wrong.

Last thing, if you use this grain bill above and have relatively normal boiloff, kettle losses, and grain absorption and you want 7L in the fermentor then I think you might want something around 12-12.5L to start. That's only if your numbers are pretty normal. It's the best guess I can make, though.

 

[Ali01]

I thank everyone for their kind replies
I will listen to you and stick to making a lower gravity beer, I like the fact that you get some real answers in this forum, thank you, I will keep all points in mind and listen to the advices

 

[eliastheodosis]

I thank everyone for their kind replies
I will listen to you and stick to making a lower gravity beer, I like the fact that you get some real answers in this forum, thank you, I will keep all points in mind and listen to the advices

Happy to help! It's nice to see new people getting into the hobby.

I know I already said it but don't be discouraged if the first few brews are tough. When things go wrong just see it as a learning opportunity and keep trying to improve. If you stick with it then things will get easier and you'll notice your beer getting better and better. You're already asking great questions. Keep it up

Cheers

 

[Ali01]

Happy to help! It's nice to see new people getting into the hobby.

I know I already said it but don't be discouraged if the first few brews are tough. When things go wrong just see it as a learning opportunity and keep trying to improve. If you stick with it then things will get easier and you'll notice your beer getting better and better. You're already asking great questions. Keep it up

Cheers

Thank you, yes it's true, we learn from our mistakes

next time I'm gonna get a water kit online and what it contains is some salts and acids to get to the right pH and softness/hardness levels and some instructions, right now I'm not sure about the pH level of my water cause I don't own a digital pH meter.
There's just one more thing I need to know, I've tried so hard and managed to get a pack of us 05 yeast, this stuff are pretty hard to get in my country due to homebrewing being considered an illegal practice (strict religion rules). Anyway, the instructions say use 50-80 g/hL
That's 0.5-0.8g per liter, I'm a bit confused here, why is there a lower end and an upper high to this? Like what would adding more yeast do to my beer? And since I won't be using even half of the pack, and again because this stuff are very hard to get, what should I do with the rest? Can I just seal it in a plastic bag and keep it in the freezer? (My freezer temp is -20)

 

[eliastheodosis]

next time I'm gonna get a water kit online and what it contains is some salts and acids to get to the right pH and softness/hardness levels and some instructions, right now I'm not sure about the pH level of my water cause I don't own a digital pH meter.

That's a great next step. I think many of us learn one part at a time very gradually. You seem to be tackling multiple parts at once, so I think your beer is likely to improve pretty quickly!

Also, with water be aware that there is both pH and alkalinity. People here have different opinions sometimes but you seem plenty smart enough to look up both terms, learn the differences, and do what is best in your situation. Knowing your pH can help but if you want to adjust it then knowing alkalinity is also very important. Measuring your pH during the process is good but if you know your water profile and it is pretty stable then you can make adjustments to get in the right area and you will be okay.

If you are learning your water profile then look into Bru'n Water. It's a tool built by someone here (@mabrungard) that helps you understand your water profile and make adjustments for each recipe. It takes a little while to learn it but once you do it is VERY helpful I would encourage you to ask questions about that tool if you have them and we will all try to help. Maybe starting another thread for that is a good idea, though. It's a big topic

There's just one more thing I need to know, I've tried so hard and managed to get a pack of us 05 yeast, this stuff are pretty hard to get in my country due to homebrewing being considered an illegal practice (strict religion rules). Anyway, the instructions say use 50-80 g/hL
That's 0.5-0.8g per liter, I'm a bit confused here, why is there a lower end and an upper high to this? Like what would adding more yeast do to my beer? And since I won't be using even half of the pack, and again because this stuff are very hard to get, what should I do with the rest? Can I just seal it in a plastic bag and keep it in the freezer? (My freezer temp is -20)

Sometimes yeast manufacturers don't give the very best, or most detailed, information. This is probably in part because how much yeast you should add depends on multiple factors that they don't know. There are people here that know more about this than me, but I think that range is likely because your wort might be a different gravity. Higher gravity wort will benefit from more yeast, so you would add the amount of yeast at the higher end of the range if you are making a stronger beer. Even a 7% beer is considered pretty strong. It can also depend on temperature, because fermenting at a lower temperature also can require more yeast. If you are fermenting at the low end of the temperature range then you might need to add slightly more. There is a good calculator here that can help you with how much you need to add. It has some details you might need to search to learn more about, though. Like how many yeast cells are in a packet.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/
There are many calculators and many, many opinions. You will figure out what works best for you in time. I would say just add an amount of yeast on the higher end of what is recommended. Adding a little more will usually not hurt much. Some might just say it's a waste of yeast. Adding too little yeast can lead to a bad fermentation and a bad beer, though. I would say that is definitely a waste of yeast. You will learn more about this as you go. How much yeast you need to add depends somewhat on the type of yeast, strength of the beer, temperature, and some other factors.

Some people will fold over the yeast packet and put it in a bag or something. I know some put it in the refrigerator and others put it in the freezer and both approaches seem to work for some people. I don't do it because I usually use pretty much all of the pack. Maybe others can add information here. If you do save the yeast be very careful about sanitation once the packet is open. Personally, if I were you I would very carefully save the rest of the pack and put it in the freezer in a sanitized bag. Then I would try to use it relatively soon after that. Probably within a few months.

Just be safe and careful with your brewing. I don't know how much trouble you can get into, but brewing can put off some pretty noticeable smells. Try to have good ventilation and be careful with who is around while you are boiling your wort. They are not bad smells (I like them!), but they are pretty distinct.

*EDIT* Added link to BrunWater

 

[IslandLizard]

There's just one more thing I need to know, I've tried so hard and managed to get a pack of us 05 yeast, this stuff are pretty hard to get in my country [...]

And since I won't be using even half of the pack, and again because this stuff are very hard to get, what should I do with the rest? Can I just seal it in a plastic bag and keep it in the freezer? (My freezer temp is -20)

Congrats on scoring some real beer yeast! US-05 is a wonderful yeast, although her main target is hoppier beers, it will make very decent maltier beers too.

As long as the yeast pouch/package is left sealed in the original pouch/envelope and (preferably) stored in the freezer it will last years. 13+ years, I have recent proof of this.

Once opened it's imperative to reseal in a way that moisture cannot get inside. If the little granules get damp or wet while stored, in any way, they're ruined. That's per the manufacturer, and I'd trust them on that, it makes sense.

So keep the yeast pouch frozen or refrigerated until ready to use. Let come to room temps for half an hour or so. This is to avoid condensation forming on the package, or worse, inside, after opening. Before actually opening it, make sure it's dry. You could then cut off a corner. Best to use some (rubbing) or denatured alcohol on a piece of paper towel to sanitize the cutting area and scissors before cutting.

It would help to have a scale that weighs small amounts (e.g., 1/100 of a gram), also handy for measuring water minerals and such. Dispense the tiny yeast granules into a small (clean) holding cup to measure out, and reseal the pouch by folding the snipped corner over 2 times and tape it shut. Put that (sealed) pouch inside a well sealable plastic (ziplock) baggy, squeeze the air out, and store in the freezer.

Now to make your precious yeast stretch longer, you can harvest the yeast cake after a batch is completed. Then reuse some of that saved out yeast (say, 1/4 of it) in a next batch, saving the rest for subsequent batches. If your sanitation practices are good, you can repitch quite a few times.

When making (yeast) starters or re-pitching/reusing harvested yeast, you'll need to use good (read: excellent++) sanitation practices to stave off potential infections, as those may ruin your next beer.

Instead of harvesting yeast from batches of beer, you can make a yeast starter from the (measured out) yeast, and pitch some of that. The starter is like a very small batch of beer, to propagate the yeast, so you can use some of that.

 

[jerrylotto]

I brew a Bourbon Stout @5gal that uses too much grain to fit in my mash tun. What I do is I mash half of the grain, then collect my sparge runnings separately and mash the second half of the grain using the sparge runnings as strike water. You said your fermenter was the limiting volume but you can always do a split batch and ferment in two containers. There are always strategies to deal with too much wort