How much priming sugar can I use if I'm using champagne bottles?

[PhilOssiferzStone]

It's my understanding that Belgian ale bottles are made especially strong to withstand the extra carbonation generated by their lambics.... but I'm lazy and cheap, and don't wish to invest in a floor corker, and have nowhere to put it. Champagne/sparkling wine bottles, on the other hand, *can* be capped. I have an apple-wheat Belgian ale percolating away, and when it comes to fruition I would like to carb the hell out of it as the Belgians do -- make it a true champagne of beers.

Things is, how do I know how much sugar I can use to prime a 5-gallon batch without winding up with more-expensive-than-usual bottle bombs? I've done a good deal of research, and all I keep coming up with is windy incomprehensible talk about 'atmospheres', which is no help to the novice at all. Can I safely throw in an extra half a cup? A quarter cup? Help! In the good King's English, please!

 

[Revvy]

Have you read anything about carbing to style?

Belgian ales are carbed between 2.0–4.5 volumes of co2 depending on exactly which type of belgian you are carbing. And even with the style there is a range that you will ultimately have to decide on.

Then you need to know the temp of your beer.

Once you figure that out you can then use this priming calculator to figure it out.

http://www.tastybrew.com/calculators/priming.html

You select the style, then you can use the default volume of co2 or change it, the volume you are bottling, and the temp of the beer. Then when it calculates it it will give you the weights and measures of various sugars to use.

 

[JetSmooth]

I'll be bottling my Belgian Golden Strong in a week or so in Belgian corked and caged bottles. Good guidance on carbing to style, but the OP's question still stands about the limits to these and champagne bottles.

I will be carbing to style, but maybe on the low-side because I may run out of Belgian bottles and need to put a few in conventional crown-capped American beer bottles. So what's the upper limit of those? (Mostly Sierra Nevada and Sam Adams bottles)

 

[PhilOssiferzStone]

Have you read anything about carbing to style?

Yes, plenty. A lambic is carbed to 3-4 atmospheres, according to what I've learned.

I still dunno how many atmospheres a regular 22-oz beer bottle is rated for, versus a champagne bottle. That's what I'm asking.

 

[Revvy]

There is really no easy answer. Part of the issue is that there is no easy calculation between volumes of CO2 and PSI. A lot of factors come into play like temperature and such.

Also atmosphere and volume of co2 are not quite the same. This thread will give you a headache to try to figure it out. http://www.gotmead.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11358

To compound the issue champagne bottles ARE rated in PSI and can hold iirc 90psi.

Different BEER bottle manufactures make different thicknesses of bottles, which are going to be able to hold different volumes of co2. Have you noticed that some of the commercial beer bottles are heavier than others? And that the ones you buy from the LHBs are often so thin you'd swear they were made of candy glass?

And trying to find direct ratings for the bottles on line is near impossible.

A THICK walled 12 ounce industry standard longneck should hold between 3.5-4 volumes of co2. But I wouldn't comfortably put more than 3.5 in them since you can never tell really the pedigree.

And it's really the same with 22 ounce or pints, they all vary in thickness. So you also don't really want to push your luck too much. IF you are carbing something around 3 - under 3.5 volumes of co2 you can comfortably put them in your better beer bottles (and I have) but over that I would go with belgian bottles or champagne/sparkling cider bottles.

So I would just make sure I had plenty of the "right" type of bottles before I bothered bottling them. Go pick up some nice belgian 12 ounce beers and drink them up and keep THEM as your back up when you run out of champagne bottles. That's what I do, I have a box where I chuck any champagne/cider or belgian beer bottles in, and I save those for high carb things.

 

[JetSmooth]

Even though those are really loose guidelines, they help.

It's all ballpaprk anyhow. I'm confident the campagne and Belgian bottles are dang thick and should be able to handle an estimated 4 volumes. Was just wondering if there was any "overflow" into 12 ouncers if that would be a problem. I have a handfull of 22s I may go with as those seem thicker.

You helped me. Hope you helped the OP.

 

[Revvy]

Even though those are really loose guidelines, they help.

It's all ballpaprk anyhow. I'm confident the campagne and Belgian bottles are dang thick and should be able to handle an estimated 4 volumes. Was just wondering if there was any "overflow" into 12 ouncers if that would be a problem. I have a handfull of 22s I may go with as those seem thicker.

You helped me. Hope you helped the OP.

It does pizz me off that it is so complicated that we have to like you say "ball park" it. I've looked ALL over the internets to find that answer, the bottle ratings. Every couple of years I look. And I can never find the definitive answer. I'm not sure if the bottle manufacturers keep it to themselves or what. But even the info on the Industry Standard Longneck Bottle, doesn't list it. Or if it does, it is not given a words that civilians like us understand. I think it should just be listed, either as psi or volumes of co2. But maybe that is a mnufacturer's trade secret.

*shrug*

 

[JetSmooth]

It does pizz me off that it is so complicated that we have to like you say "ball park" it. I've looked ALL over the internets to find that answer, the bottle ratings. Every couple of years I look. And I can never find the definitive answer. I'm not sure if the bottle manufacturers keep it to themselves or what. But even the info on the Industry Standard Longneck Bottle, doesn't list it. Or if it does, it is not given a words that civilians like us understand. I think it should just be listed, either as psi or volumes of co2. But maybe that is a mnufacturer's trade secret.

*shrug*

Agreed. Ever look at a carboard boax? Those things are certified out the wazoo. Edge crush ratings, bursting tests, paperboard strength, etc. There probably are similar ratings in glass manufacture, but whatever the equivalent of metallurgist is in glass, I ain't one.

 

[Andy_LV]

That calculator would be priceless if it fully supported metric units... *sigh*

 

[Revvy]

That calculator would be priceless if it fully supported metric units... *sigh*

Some do, I just chose this one because it had less "fidgity widgets" to complicate things. But google priming calculators and you should find one that fits your bill.

 

[Andy_LV]

Some do, I just chose this one because it had less "fidgity widgets" to complicate things. But google priming calculators and you should find one that fits your bill.

yea, thats nice thing about it. I presume, those are U.K. gallons...

 

[PhilOssiferzStone]

A THICK walled 12 ounce industry standard longneck should hold between 3.5-4 volumes of co2. But I wouldn't comfortably put more than 3.5 in them since you can never tell really the pedigree.

Thanks. That's more or less what I was looking for -- if not industry guidelines, then at least some words of experience. And unless I were to try and create some uber-fizzy weird stuff for the helluvit, it sounds as though champagne bottles will take anything the beer world can realistically throw at them.

One last silly question: Your online calculator (and others I've seen) tell me that the lower the temp, the more pressure you generate with less priming sugar. That doesn't apply to fridge temperatures, does it...? I'm not gonna put my 3,5-atmosphere ale-inna-beer-bottle in the fridge and have it explode, am I? Unless there was something wrong with the bottle to begin with?

 

[wyzazz]

That temp is the highest temp your beer was at while fermenting/conditioning. If you fermented at 64, but then ramped up to 70 for the last week, that number should be 70. When the temp of your beer rises, it "lets go" of some of the CO2 that is in solution so you need to add a bit more sugar to get to your target vol's of CO2.

 

[cjever19]

That temp is the highest temp your beer was at while fermenting/conditioning. If you fermented at 64, but then ramped up to 70 for the last week, that number should be 70. When the temp of your beer rises, it "lets go" of some of the CO2 that is in solution so you need to add a bit more sugar to get to your target vol's of CO2.

Ahh, thank you! I was just trying to figure out that part using the calculator!

 

[jourelemode]

hey revv...i'm kind of in the same situation. My Chimay red clone doesnt seem as carbbed as it should be and all I used was the priming sugar that came with the kit. Right now I have 4.5oz that came with the kit for my quad, but I don't want it to turn out like the chimay red clone. I have muntons carb tabs, If I bulk prime the quad batch with the 4.5oz corn sugar. How many tabs of the muntons should I add to the belgian bottles? I'm using chimay and st. bernardus 750ml bottles, will be corking and caging them. I also have these 11.3oz belgian beer bottles, how many munton tabs should I add to that? thanks

 

[wyzazz]

hey revv...i'm kind of in the same situation. My Chimay red clone doesnt seem as carbbed as it should be and all I used was the priming sugar that came with the kit. Right now I have 4.5oz that came with the kit for my quad, but I don't want it to turn out like the chimay red clone. I have muntons carb tabs, If I bulk prime the quad batch with the 4.5oz corn sugar. How many tabs of the muntons should I add to the belgian bottles? I'm using chimay and st. bernardus 750ml bottles, will be corking and caging them. I also have these 11.3oz belgian beer bottles, how many munton tabs should I add to that? thanks

Just pick up some more corn sugar, or use table sugar to prime with, if you mix bulk priming with the carb tabs I think you're asking for trouble. This calculator will allow you to prime with table sugar. My personal preference would be around 3vols with a belgian, but that's just me.

 

[nutty_gnome]

Bottles are tricky beasts. I like to bottle in the martinelli sparkling cider bottles because they feel heavy and sturdy to me, even if it is hard to get a standard cap on them.

Revvy covered some nice examples in the difference in the thickness of commercial beer bottles. If you are hands on and need to see for yourself, buy some Bud american ale in bottles and then any of the michelob craft series. The bud bottle is about as beefy as I've ever seen an american 12 ouncer. The michelob's are crazy thin and make me wince when I get a good grip on one.

 

[wyzazz]

Bell's bottles are pretty thick for a standard 12oz.

 

[FlipMasterFlash]

I ran across this guideline for the pressure capabilities for various bottles. As has already been warned this is just a guideline but at least it gives a ball park.

12oz - 3 volumes
33cl Belgian - 3.5 volumes
500ml European - 3.5 volumes
Swing top - 4 volumes
Champagne - 7 volumes
PET - 10 volumes

I found it at Norther Brewer under their documentation.

Here is the PDF it is in.

 

[Beer_Guy]

For the record, the temp the cal. programs ask for is the temp of the brew when bottled. It has to do with Co2 staying in there on its own. A 45-50* cold lagered brew will hold more of its own Co2 before priming than one that has been feremented and kept at ~65-70*.

 

[jourelemode]

Just pick up some more corn sugar, or use table sugar to prime with, if you mix bulk priming with the carb tabs I think you're asking for trouble. This calculator will allow you to prime with table sugar. My personal preference would be around 3vols with a belgian, but that's just me.

alright, ill just pick up some more dextrose. I input the info and I'm going to try 3vols and see how that works out. The highest my temps went on this according to the sticker thermometer on my fermenter is 85ish. I purposely did that with a brewbelt. So according to the calculator, "belgian strong dark ale" 5gal 3.0vol at 85*F I need 6.2oz of dextrose. Does that look right guys? thanks

 

[Revvy]

I ran across this guideline for the pressure capabilities for various bottles. As has already been warned this is just a guideline but at least it gives a ball park.

12oz - 3 volumes
33cl Belgian - 3.5 volumes
500ml European - 3.5 volumes
Swing top - 4 volumes
Champagne - 7 volumes
PET - 10 volumes

I found it at Norther Brewer under their documentation.

Here is the PDF it is in.

Good find.

This whole PDF is simply amazing!!!!!

 

[FlipMasterFlash]

Good find. This whole PDF is simply amazing!!!!!

Glad I ran across it. They have a lot of very helpful information on that documentation page.

 

[Beer_Guy]

…
So according to the calculator, "belgian strong dark ale" 5gal 3.0vol at 85*F I need 6.2oz of dextrose. Does that look right guys? thanks

No, "belgian strong dark ale" is 1.9 to 2.5.

I’m just saying.

 

[Beer_Guy]

And I would not use the MAX temp, but the final temp. Or temp at bottle time.

 

[jourelemode]

No, "belgian strong dark ale" is 1.9 to 2.5.

I’m just saying.

oh i know that but I wanted it to be 3.0vol so that's what I put in the fields.

so I should use the temp at bottling??? I was under the impression that the highest temp that the fermenter reached was the temp to use??? check wyazz post below. thanks guys

That temp is the highest temp your beer was at while fermenting/conditioning. If you fermented at 64, but then ramped up to 70 for the last week, that number should be 70. When the temp of your beer rises, it "lets go" of some of the CO2 that is in solution so you need to add a bit more sugar to get to your target vol's of CO2.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Go w/ wyazz... I spent a ton of time culling through endless threads--even into the dark geeky recesses of the science forum...(shiver)--to come to that conclusion. Use the highest temp the beer reached during fermentation. It does have to do w/ how much CO2 remains in the beer, but that does not perpetually change with temp changes, it is set by fermentation temps as max amount of residual CO2. I have cold crashed brews and then used 72* in the calc...came out just fine, no overcarb, no problem.

Ask Revvy bout those science threads, he was kicking around in that dungeon!!!

 

[wyzazz]

Use the highest temp the beer was at for a "reasonable" amount of time. When you warm your beer up you'll notice the airlock/blow off tube start to bubble again because you are off gassing the CO2 that's in solution. That's the reason for this temp correction.

I ramp all my beers up around 3F-5F at the end of active fermentation, so that's the temp I use in the priming calculator.

 

[Revvy]

Ask Revvy bout those science threads, he was kicking around in that dungeon!!!

Funny I remember getting beat up years ago on those threads, because people were adamant that it was the COLDEST temperature your beer was at.

This is one of those things, sadly that just about every source, including Palmer repeats the same somewhat poorly written paragraph and it really is somewhat unclear what they mean.

Since most of my beers spend most of their time at "room temp" I take the temp at bottling time and go with that. It's usually between 65 and 70 in my place. And if you've played around with the calculators, most of the time the kits that have 4.5-5 ounces of priming sugar seem to have calculated it at about 70 degrees anyway.

 

[wyzazz]

Funny I remember getting beat up years ago on those threads, because people were adamant that it was the COLDEST temperature your beer was at.

This is one of those things, sadly that just about every source, including Palmer repeats the same somewhat poorly written paragraph and it really is somewhat unclear what they mean.

Since most of my beers spend most of their time at "room temp" I take the temp at bottling time and go with that. It's usually between 65 and 70 in my place. And if you've played around with the calculators, most of the time the kits that have 4.5-5 ounces of priming sugar seem to have calculated it at about 70 degrees anyway.

Either way, I don't think that it would change the amount of priming sugar enough to notice a real difference. From 60F-70F on 5 gallons at 2.5vols, I only get a .4oz difference in priming sugar amount. That means a .15 difference in vols of CO2 if my math is correct.

 

[jourelemode]

my beer was at 85*F for 4-5 days, is that a significant enough time span?

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

To the OP's question, I know somebody posted info from NB that champagne bottles hold up to 7 vol. I believe -- and I might be remembering incorrectly -- that champagne bottles are actually rated up to 12. I have carbed up to 7 vol. in champagne bottles without an explosion.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

my beer was at 85*F for 4-5 days, is that a significant enough time span?

Yes. Use 80-85* for your calculations

 

[wyzazz]

To the OP's question, I know somebody posted info from NB that champagne bottles hold up to 7 vol. I believe -- and I might be remembering incorrectly -- that champagne bottles are actually rated up to 12. I have carbed up to 7 vol. in champagne bottles without an explosion.

Not to be O/T but what on earth did you carb to 7vols?

 

[Beer_Guy]

…
Since most of my beers spend most of their time at "room temp" I take the temp at bottling time and go with that.
…

Thanks Revvy. I was just using common sense. If the brew did any fermenting at below 85* after it peaked there, then the Co2 driven off by the high temp would be replaced.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

Not to be O/T but what on earth did you carb to 7vols?

I like my sparkling mead to get some serious sparkling going on.