How can people possibly get super hoppy “juicy” NEIPA flavors so quickly

[Cavpilot2000]

First statement is a false equivalency. We aren't talking about macro lagers here.

Second statement is ludicrous and based on your singular opinion of what "good beer" is. If NEIPAs are so great, they should be outselling regular IPAs very soon.

My comment is no more false equivalency than yours - you said: "I'm betting the top 10 IPAs in the country in terms of sales volume sell alot more than all the NEIPAs combined."
That statement suggests that volume of production and distribution are proportional to quality. That is a ludicrous statement.

It takes small businesses time to scale up production. For instance, Treehouse just last year moved into a larger production facility. Show me any startup brewery that opened in the last 5 years that has nation-wide distribution, and I'll show you a unicorn.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

edit

 

[Azura]

That's a big statement. Can you cite something to back it up?

What could I possibly cite that would appease you? Probably nothing. The subjective fact is I have been drinking pro IPAs for a looong time and anything older than 2 months in the best case scenario is not nearly as good as it was after three weeks.

Lodo techniques have been known to brewing science for a long time. However, they are still working on ways to extend shelf life.

 

[Azura]

My comment is no more false equivalency than yours - you said: "I'm betting the top 10 IPAs in the country in terms of sales volume sell alot more than all the NEIPAs combined."
That statement suggests that volume of production and distribution are proportional to quality. That is a ludicrous statement.

It takes small businesses time to scale up production. For instance, Treehouse just last year moved into a larger production facility. Show me any startup brewery that opened in the last 5 years that has nation-wide distribution, and I'll show you a unicorn.

Ok, I just realized you're a real NEIPA fanatic with a disconnect. I won't be engaging in further conversation with you on this topic. Cheers!

 

[schematix]

What could I possibly cite that would appease you? Probably nothing. The subjective fact is I have been drinking pro IPAs for a looong time and anything older than 2 months in the best case scenario is not nearly as good as it was after three weeks.

Lodo techniques have been known to brewing science for a long time. However, they are still working on ways to extend shelf life.

I think we both agree that Time is not the friend of an IPA.

But extremely cautious packaging and continuous refrigeration go a long way to making what used to fizzle out at 4 weeks now have the same end at 12 months. Fact of the matter is what happens to a beer from the time it leaves the brewery until you drink it has a lot of impact on that product.... heat, cold, oxygen, light, etc all take their toll. The less you expose a beer to those conditions the better the outcome.

I personally won’t buy a commercial IPA packaged more than 6-8 weeks earlier. And won’t buy them hardly at all in the mid to late summer. Very funky stuff happens.

 

[Azura]

I think we both agree that Time is not the friend of an IPA.

But extremely cautious packaging and continuous refrigeration go a long way to making what used to fizzle out at 4 weeks now have the same end at 12 months. Fact of the matter is what happens to a beer from the time it leaves the brewery until you drink it has a lot of impact on that product.... heat, cold, oxygen, light, etc all take their toll. The less you expose a beer to those conditions the better the outcome.

I personally won’t buy a commercial IPA packaged more than 6-8 weeks earlier. And won’t buy them hardly at all in the mid to late summer. Very funky stuff happens.

Let's take the example of Russian River. They are an 'old school' WCIPA brewer that understood the importance of minimizing O2 pickup long before it was a niche homebrew hobby science thing. Cold storage is a mandatory requirement for RR retailers. This is very rare in beer, but they get it because they deserve it. Their bottling device is one of the best money can buy. It's made by Krones and it bottles very low DO beer.

Despite the low DO, cold packaging and cold storage, their heavily hopped beers experience easily noticeable hop fade from day 1 to 20. They are fairly stable after day 20 and are still very hoppy and a pleasure to drink after that. The same thing has been repeatedly observed with my cold side lodo kegged homebrews.

Basically, what you are claiming is your brewing process is better than ALL the best pro IPA brewers in terms of stability. Total lodo is a legitimately useful method. However, I think you are overestimating its benefits in this context.

 

[eric19312]

If forced to choose between a 6m old West Coast IPA and a 6m old NEIPA from well regarded commercial brewers I'd take the West Coast every time. Commercial or homebrew I don't think it matters. In both beers the bright hop flavors will have faded but in the WC version the firm bitterness will still stand up to the sweetness of the malt. In that NEIPA once the bright flavors are gone the beer is just not very good. Fresh..measured in days not weeks, I do love them.

I agree with @Azura that there doesn't seem to be a commercial brewer who has figured out how to match the Lodo homebrewer claims in terms of shelf life for these beers. Not HF, not Trillium, not Treehouse not Other Half. I read on here somewhere that Budweiser is Lodo so maybe Goose Island or one of the other AB InBev craft houses will be the commercial to finally make decent shelf life NEIPA a reality. Alchemist actually has a bit more shelf life than the others I mentioned above but as others have pointed out the NEIPAs people are loving these days have progressed the style well beyond Heady Topper. Drink them fresh and love them, drink them old and why bother.

 

[Craigmn]

There is no reason why mass distribution can't maintain consistently good quality over a region much broader than the NE. If these NEIPA beers are so fragile that they need to be consumed within a week of canning to be very good, then they aren't that good...

I agree, it’s like steakhouses. You go and have one there and it’s great, but you take it home and eat it it’s just not the same. Burgers are made of the same thing and I can get it through the drive through and it’s just fine when i get home.

Those steakhouses just aren’t good with beef:

 

[Azura]

I agree with @Azura that there doesn't seem to be a commercial brewer who has figured out how to match the Lodo homebrewer claims in terms of shelf life for these beers. Not HF, not Trillium, not Treehouse not Other Half. I read on here somewhere that Budweiser is Lodo so maybe Goose Island or one of the other AB InBev craft houses will be the commercial to finally make decent shelf life NEIPA a reality.

HF, Trillium, Treehouse and Other Half don't need to worry about shelf life because they lack the capacity to create significant shelf life despite the hype. Don't get me wrong here, they probably make very good tasting fresh beer.

Goose Island makes very profitable beer. That's why AB/InBev bought them. They use minimal ingredients to maximize profit while maintaining long shelf stability that zero small NEIPA brewers can match. I'm absolutely certain Goose would make a better, shelf stable beer than any of the hyped small NE breweries using 4oz of hops per 5 gallon batch.. Budweiser is not a joke in terms of brewing science. They actually employ many real life brewing scientists!

 

[Azura]

Before someone complains about this thread being "derailed" again, I encourage the thread flow complainants to offer additional advice to the OP or participate in the evolution of the conversation. IMO, the OP has more than enough good advice to make another beer using a modified formula that could produce the results he desires.

If the OP has additional questions, let them be known.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Ok, I just realized you're a real NEIPA fanatic with a disconnect. I won't be engaging in further conversation with you on this topic. Cheers!

Agreed.
I am a fan of NEIPAs and you are not.
Both are valid points of view with supporters on both sides and there is no right or wrong about it.
No point in further derailing the OP’s thread. To which point I might further ask since you clearly are not a fan of NEIPAs, and you clearly think that NEIPA production practices are inferior, why have you even bothered posting so much on the OPs post, which was asking about NEIPA practices? Do you just like p!$$ing on other people’s questions and discussions?


Because as much as you think NEIPAs are bunk, there is a significant portion of the craft brewing community that disagrees with you. So the NEIPA is not going anywhere.
So, perhaps this discussion thread is not the ideal one for you, since it is about a subject you clearly disagree with.
I’m not saying you should leave - it’s a free country - I just wonder why you are spending so much time and mental energy arguing in a thread that is about something you don’t like.

Can we get back to helping the OP with answers and suggestions to his questions?

 

[schematix]

It's made by Krones and it bottles very low DO beer.

Krones makes a great filler no doubt. But they still cap their bottle with the same imperfect cap everyone else does. All bottled beer is a ticking time bomb from the moment it was capped.

I think we're getting in the weeds a bit here though. Maybe my "95%" is actually an "85%" and 4-5 months really means 3 months and 30 days. It doesn't really matter in the context of the OP asking how to get those big bright hop flavors in his beer. One element that does help is lowering oxygen exposure, both hot and cold side. It's not the only trick in the book, but it is one of several that when combined go a long way in achieving the end goal.

Equally important are

• using good clean water (I like starting with RO) with complimentary mineralization
• stylistically correct grain bill
• proper mash schedule to encourage attenuation, body and foam stability
• using the right hop varieties at the right times in the right amounts and at the right temperatures
• using the right yeast strains and pitching the needed amount
• fermentation temperature control
• getting proper attenuation
• packaging
• carbonating to the desired level

Beer is the sum of its parts.

 

[Azura]

I think we're getting in the weeds a bit here though. Maybe my "95%" is actually an "85%" and 4-5 months really means 3 months and 30 days. It doesn't really matter in the context of the OP asking how to get those big bright hop flavors in his beer. One element that does help is lowering oxygen exposure, both hot and cold side. It's not the only trick in the book, but it is one of several that when combined go a long way in achieving the end goal.

Ok, you're backpedaling a bit on your previously questionable claims. Nevertheless, we are moving forward without judgement...

How does HSA reduce the stability of hop flavor and aroma from 15-0 additions? How does HSA reduce hop flavor and aroma from sub-isomerization steeps? Isn't HSA more relevant to malt in this context? Perhaps this is something you should discuss within the safe space of the lodo forum before replying.

I'm not going to dispute how good your lodo IPA tastes to you. I'm sure it tastes very good to you. However, there are numerous people that can make the same claim using less sophisticated brewing methods while drinking the full batch before it fades away into mediocrity.

 

[schematix]

Ok, you're backpedaling a bit on your previously questionable claims. Nevertheless, we are moving forward without judgement...

You totally missed the point, but I think you're just here to argue, and that's fine too.

It doesn't matter if i said its 85% or 95%. It was a somewhat arbitrary numerical rating that I put out there based on my experience making that style of beer before low oxygen, and then after. I've made many, many IPAs that became lifeless by the time they were 3 weeks old. More recently I've made quite a few that were still amazing even many months later. The point is simply that when meticulous oxygen exclusion was practiced on the cold side, there was a *significant* increase in the longevity of the resulting product and there was also a subtle change to the character of the hops that was present from the beginning that only faded slightly over time.

How does HSA reduce the stability of hop flavor and aroma from 15-0 additions? How does HSA reduce hop flavor and aroma from sub-isomerization steeps? Isn't HSA more relevant to malt in this context?

I didn't link HSA to hops. In fact, the dissolved oxygen in the wort is near 0 when the hops are added. So yes HSA is linked to malt flavors. But on the cold side the hop flavors are degraded by oxygen.

Perhaps this is something you should discuss within the safe space of the lodo forum before replying.

For some reason this one subject always sends people over the rails. I don't get it.

I'm not going to dispute how good your lodo IPA tastes to you. I'm sure it tastes very good to you. However, there are numerous people that can make the same claim using less sophisticated brewing methods while drinking the full batch before it fades away into mediocrity.

And that's great. If someone is happy to finish a keg in a week or two that's fine.

I make 10G batches and for me to consume 10G of any single batch in a couple weeks is difficult. I like all my options to be available and still fresh and at their peak for as long as possible. So this is what works for me.

 

[Azura]

You totally missed the point, but I think you're just here to argue, and that's fine too. I didn't link HSA to hops. (yes you did, ITT) In fact, the dissolved oxygen in the wort is near 0 when the hops are added. So yes HSA is linked to malt flavors. (so why claim HSA is necessary for IPA?) But on the cold side the hop flavors are degraded by oxygen. For some reason this one subject always sends people over the rails. I don't get it..

The words between bold parenthesis are mine above. You have contradicted yourself multiple times ITT.

I haven't missed your point, because you haven't made one yet. It appears you may be capable of making a point. I encourage you to do it soon. Making a point in this context should address the difficult questions from my previous post that you haven't answered correctly.

You just falsely claimed you didn't link HSA to hops, but previously claimed HSA and of course the obvious CSA mitigation was absolutely necessary to make the best example of NEIPA. Frankly, I think your 'maximum lodo process' created a false expectation bias which you were incapable of escaping.

IPA and NEIPA are styles that celebrate the ephemeral nature of hops. The malt flavor is less important. So why is HSA lodo important for hoppy styles that most people happily demolish in less than a month?

 

[schematix]

IPA and NEIPA are styles that celebrate the ephemeral nature of hops. The malt flavor is less important. So why is HSA lodo important for hoppy styles that most people happily demolish in less than a month?

Right back to post #1, I have found that low oxygen on the hot side reduces the need to “age” a beer out. To the point it’s not even a challenge to be drinking an amazing (ale) beer in under 10 days. Using standard practices I always found beer got better after at least s few weeks of cold storage. Now I think it’s a few days.

Could be all confirmation bias though, amiright??

 

[chieftain]

HF, Trillium, Treehouse and Other Half don't need to worry about shelf life because they lack the capacity to create significant shelf life despite the hype. Don't get me wrong here, they probably make very good tasting fresh beer.

Goose Island makes very profitable beer. That's why AB/InBev bought them. They use minimal ingredients to maximize profit while maintaining long shelf stability that zero small NEIPA brewers can match. I'm absolutely certain Goose would make a better, shelf stable beer than any of the hyped small NE breweries using 4oz of hops per 5 gallon batch.. Budweiser is not a joke in terms of brewing science. They actually employ many real life brewing scientists!

Maybe it's me, but if you have never tried a beer from Trillium, et al, than how can you provide an objective opinion on them?

Goose Island is a decent ballpark beer, but it would make me very sad if Trillium's beers devolved to that level in order to reach nationwide distro. But each palate to its own.

 

[Azura]

Right back to post #1, I have found that low oxygen on the hot side reduces the need to “age” a beer out. To the point it’s not even a challenge to be drinking an amazing (ale) beer in under 10 days. Using standard practices I always found beer got better after at least s few weeks of cold storage. Now I think it’s a few days.

Could be all confirmation bias though, amiright??

Not sure why you need to make a quickly drinkable IPA with 5+ "amazing kegs of lodo beer" in your keezer. Clearly, you don't need to. However, this is the alleged benefit that you are currently using to promote the alleged usefulness of hot side lodo for IPA. This does not solve the Op's issue. Anybody can drink beer early. Pretty sure he did and the hops were a disappointment.

I prefer to wait for the keg to clear despite being drinkable and "more juicy" earlier. A two week slow carb schedule does a few positive things. The yeast drops out. The hop flavor remains stable from the time I tap it until the time it is finished. The recipe is adjusted to accommodate this window that lasts about a month. The beer can be juicy for a month if I want it to be.

Sampling earlier than that from the bottom of the keg creates an uneven hop flavor distribution from beginning to end. One day force carbing is something I will never do again unless I'm making soda.

 

[Azura]

Maybe it's me, but if you have never tried a beer from Trillium, et al, than how can you provide an objective opinion on them?

Goose Island is a decent ballpark beer, but it would make me very sad if Trillium's beers devolved to that level in order to reach nationwide distro. But each palate to its own.

I didn't offer an objective opinion (or even subjective opinion) about Trillium and their ilk. You missed the point of the post you responded to.

What I said earlier was Goose can brew a more shelf stable and more impressive product than any of the NEIPA brewers using the same minimal ingredients, such as 4oz of hops and a basic malt bill per 5 gallons. That is an educated guess. If any NEIPA minor league baller brewer wants to take that challenge, I'm pretty sure Goose will step up to the plate...

 

[schematix]

Let's remind ourselves what the OP was asking:

I often read people are brewing NEIPAs w 7-9 day fermentation schedule, putting into a keg, quick carbing, and claiming they’re getting fruity, juicy, crisp NEIPAs...Is this their own bias and somewhat they’re full of it? I am too harsh of a critic on my own brews? I am trying to get close to an Other Half, Trillium, Tree House, Hill Farmstead style. Where you take a sip and literally taste hop juice.

I’ve been getting way better and improving drastically along the way. Stepping up to water chemistry, moving to kegging setup and closed O2 transfers, improving my hop additions & dry hop techniques, etc. — my big catch is that it takes AT LEAST 5 weeks before they don’t taste somewhat bland or thin/watery. Again it’s probably fine or even really good to the common beer drinker but it’s not on the level of the pros I am aspiring to...

To paraphrase:
1. Some people claim to make NEIPAs quickly, on the order of a week. Is this real?
2. OPs beers are not ready quickly.


To answer quickly:
1. Yes it's real. Commercial ale fermentation are usually moved out of primary in about 2 days. This is easily achieved on the home brew level as well. Myself and many others have done it. Measure your actual gravity through fermentation and you'll see how fast it actually goes. Fermentation isn't done in "7-10 days" or "2 weeks" or "28 days". It's done when the yeast is done (assuming it hasn't quit, which is unlikely if you follow good practices)
2. The good news for the OP is that there's nothing magical about what these brewers are doing. They are just executing good brewing practices at a large scale.

What are good brewing practices with NEIPAs?

Water
1. Start with good water. RO + minerals is your best bet. There is debate about the right sulfate/chloride ratios and amounts, but seems that's more personal preference. You might be able to use tap water if you quantitatively know what's in it, but if not it's a roll of the dice. Sounds like you are on this path already.
2. Deoxygenated water is typically used by the big brewers and for good reason. An oxidized mash leaves a dull tasting beer. There is a certain "brightness" quality that comes out of an unoxidized mash. This isn't a "LODO" thing. This is a real practice in many modern breweries and it's for good cause. I also find a lot of the "off flavors" in "green beer" come from an oxidized mash. When you don't make these flavors to begin with, you don't have to wait for them to age out.


Mash
3. Grain bill - this is up to you, and there are a lot of versions out there. This is an entire thread on its own and has been discussed elsewhere.
4. Get your mash pH correct. You're looking for about 5.40. This will put your enzymes in a good range to do their magic. There's some wiggle room here but don't end up at 5.1 or 5.8.
5. Perform a step mash. Something like 145F for 30, 162F for 30, 170F for 10. This is known as a Hochkurz mash. Each step has its purpose but the net result is good fermentability, body AND foam stability. A single infusion mash at 148 is going to leave you a thin watery beer with no body or foam. Likewise if you ratchet it up a few degrees you're going to have a mash with all alpha amylase activity, which is going to give you a sweet and low attenuating beer. This will really detract from the hop punch. You want 80-85% apparent attenuation. Anything less and your hops won't be center stage and the beer will be cloying and heavy. Also an interesting fact is that unfermented but fermentable extract tastes better than unfermented and unfermentable extract, if that makes sense.

Boil
6. Gentle simmer. Target 6-10% boil off. Anything more is excessive. Less is asking for DMS.
7. Chill rapidly to your steep temperatures and then to your final fermentation temp.

Hops
8. This is another area that is up for you to decide what you like. BUT if there's one thing i've found to be universal across all styles its that old hops make sh1tty IPA of any variation. Do yourself a favor and buy all your hops online from a reputable vendor that will sell you the most recent crop year. Seriously. It makes a BIG difference in this style of beer. I throw out a lb of unused miscellaneous hops every year and buy fresh stuff because it makes that big of a difference. This is especially true with your hop bombs.
9. Decide what YOU like. How do you like your bitterness? Soft/firm? How do you like your aromas and flavors? Do you like citrus flavors or dank flavors or pine flavors or earthy flavors?
10. Quantity - I'm going to suggest you need roughly 1 lb per 5 G. Roughly. Think roughly 1/3 in the boil, 1/3 steep and 1/3 dry hop. This isn't a rule. Decide what you like and adjust more or less.

Fermentation
11. Pitch aggressively. This means HUGE starters if using liquid yeasts or 2-3 packs per 5 gallons of dry yeast.
12. Shouldn't need to be stated, but active temp control is key here. If you don't have this, find a way. It's the #1 most important thing in brewing high quality beer.

Dry Hopping
13. You need to dry hop during active fermentation. There's some variation out there but i'd get the first charge in no later than 1.020. Some people add first charge with the yeast and then a second later in fermentation. I can't tell you what's right or wrong here other than its a necessary step to do during fermentation to get the real juice flavors. Something to play with.

Packaging
14. Beer shouldn't stay in the primary fermenter any longer than needed. Ideally you would transfer your beer to your serving keg with a couple gravity points left. Second best would be to transfer not long (meaning hours to a day if possible) after reaching final gravity. Add priming sugar to the fermenter first, wait about 30-60 minutes, then transfer. In either case you can seal the keg and it'll carbonate itself naturally. This is the best possible scenario because that active yeast will scavenge any oxygen you pick up. Second best would be to add priming sugar


This isn't meant to be the end-all-be-all-guide to NEIPA or any other style. But beer is the sum of its parts. Sounds like you're on the right track and just need some more practice.

 

[day_trippr]

Someone sure has a hair across their butt about neipas and the NorthEast somehow treading all over the West Coast's ancient/hallowed history.
It's almost like the Bloods and Crips all up in here

Cheers!

 

[mj1angier]

Someone sure has a hair across their butt about neipas and the NorthEast somehow treading all over the West Coast's ancient/hallowed history.
It's almost like the Bloods and Crips all up in here

Cheers!

This is hitting the nail on the head. LOL

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Someone sure has a hair across their butt about neipas and the NorthEast somehow treading all over the West Coast's ancient/hallowed history.
It's almost like the Bloods and Crips all up in here

Cheers!

Word...

 

[Dcioni]

This is great thanks so much. Very intrigued about the step mash—I felt torn about going with 148 for 60, but the sweetness (not the right fruity kind) of higher mash was off putting. Will try!!!

Let's remind ourselves what the OP was asking:



To paraphrase:
1. Some people claim to make NEIPAs quickly, on the order of a week. Is this real?
2. OPs beers are not ready quickly.


To answer quickly:
1. Yes it's real. Commercial ale fermentation are usually moved out of primary in about 2 days. This is easily achieved on the home brew level as well. Myself and many others have done it. Measure your actual gravity through fermentation and you'll see how fast it actually goes. Fermentation isn't done in "7-10 days" or "2 weeks" or "28 days". It's done when the yeast is done (assuming it hasn't quit, which is unlikely if you follow good practices)
2. The good news for the OP is that there's nothing magical about what these brewers are doing. They are just executing good brewing practices at a large scale.

What are good brewing practices with NEIPAs?

Water
1. Start with good water. RO + minerals is your best bet. There is debate about the right sulfate/chloride ratios and amounts, but seems that's more personal preference. You might be able to use tap water if you quantitatively know what's in it, but if not it's a roll of the dice. Sounds like you are on this path already.
2. Deoxygenated water is typically used by the big brewers and for good reason. An oxidized mash leaves a dull tasting beer. There is a certain "brightness" quality that comes out of an unoxidized mash. This isn't a "LODO" thing. This is a real practice in many modern breweries and it's for good cause. I also find a lot of the "off flavors" in "green beer" come from an oxidized mash. When you don't make these flavors to begin with, you don't have to wait for them to age out.


Mash
3. Grain bill - this is up to you, and there are a lot of versions out there. This is an entire thread on its own and has been discussed elsewhere.
4. Get your mash pH correct. You're looking for about 5.40. This will put your enzymes in a good range to do their magic. There's some wiggle room here but don't end up at 5.1 or 5.8.
5. Perform a step mash. Something like 145F for 30, 162F for 30, 170F for 10. This is known as a Hochkurz mash. Each step has its purpose but the net result is good fermentability, body AND foam stability. A single infusion mash at 148 is going to leave you a thin watery beer with no body or foam. Likewise if you ratchet it up a few degrees you're going to have a mash with all alpha amylase activity, which is going to give you a sweet and low attenuating beer. This will really detract from the hop punch. You want 80-85% apparent attenuation. Anything less and your hops won't be center stage and the beer will be cloying and heavy. Also an interesting fact is that unfermented but fermentable extract tastes better than unfermented and unfermentable extract, if that makes sense.

Boil
6. Gentle simmer. Target 6-10% boil off. Anything more is excessive. Less is asking for DMS.
7. Chill rapidly to your steep temperatures and then to your final fermentation temp.

Hops
8. This is another area that is up for you to decide what you like. BUT if there's one thing i've found to be universal across all styles its that old hops make sh1tty IPA of any variation. Do yourself a favor and buy all your hops online from a reputable vendor that will sell you the most recent crop year. Seriously. It makes a BIG difference in this style of beer. I throw out a lb of unused miscellaneous hops every year and buy fresh stuff because it makes that big of a difference. This is especially true with your hop bombs.
9. Decide what YOU like. How do you like your bitterness? Soft/firm? How do you like your aromas and flavors? Do you like citrus flavors or dank flavors or pine flavors or earthy flavors?
10. Quantity - I'm going to suggest you need roughly 1 lb per 5 G. Roughly. Think roughly 1/3 in the boil, 1/3 steep and 1/3 dry hop. This isn't a rule. Decide what you like and adjust more or less.

Fermentation
11. Pitch aggressively. This means HUGE starters if using liquid yeasts or 2-3 packs per 5 gallons of dry yeast.
12. Shouldn't need to be stated, but active temp control is key here. If you don't have this, find a way. It's the #1 most important thing in brewing high quality beer.

Dry Hopping
13. You need to dry hop during active fermentation. There's some variation out there but i'd get the first charge in no later than 1.020. Some people add first charge with the yeast and then a second later in fermentation. I can't tell you what's right or wrong here other than its a necessary step to do during fermentation to get the real juice flavors. Something to play with.

Packaging
14. Beer shouldn't stay in the primary fermenter any longer than needed. Ideally you would transfer your beer to your serving keg with a couple gravity points left. Second best would be to transfer not long (meaning hours to a day if possible) after reaching final gravity. Add priming sugar to the fermenter first, wait about 30-60 minutes, then transfer. In either case you can seal the keg and it'll carbonate itself naturally. This is the best possible scenario because that active yeast will scavenge any oxygen you pick up. Second best would be to add priming sugar


This isn't meant to be the end-all-be-all-guide to NEIPA or any other style. But beer is the sum of its parts. Sounds like you're on the right track and just need some more practice.

 

[Dextersmom]

Let's remind ourselves what the OP was asking:



To paraphrase:
1. Some people claim to make NEIPAs quickly, on the order of a week. Is this real?
2. OPs beers are not ready quickly.


To answer quickly:
1. Yes it's real. Commercial ale fermentation are usually moved out of primary in about 2 days. This is easily achieved on the home brew level as well. Myself and many others have done it. Measure your actual gravity through fermentation and you'll see how fast it actually goes. Fermentation isn't done in "7-10 days" or "2 weeks" or "28 days". It's done when the yeast is done (assuming it hasn't quit, which is unlikely if you follow good practices)
2. The good news for the OP is that there's nothing magical about what these brewers are doing. They are just executing good brewing practices at a large scale.

What are good brewing practices with NEIPAs?

Water
1. Start with good water. RO + minerals is your best bet. There is debate about the right sulfate/chloride ratios and amounts, but seems that's more personal preference. You might be able to use tap water if you quantitatively know what's in it, but if not it's a roll of the dice. Sounds like you are on this path already.
2. Deoxygenated water is typically used by the big brewers and for good reason. An oxidized mash leaves a dull tasting beer. There is a certain "brightness" quality that comes out of an unoxidized mash. This isn't a "LODO" thing. This is a real practice in many modern breweries and it's for good cause. I also find a lot of the "off flavors" in "green beer" come from an oxidized mash. When you don't make these flavors to begin with, you don't have to wait for them to age out.


Mash
3. Grain bill - this is up to you, and there are a lot of versions out there. This is an entire thread on its own and has been discussed elsewhere.
4. Get your mash pH correct. You're looking for about 5.40. This will put your enzymes in a good range to do their magic. There's some wiggle room here but don't end up at 5.1 or 5.8.
5. Perform a step mash. Something like 145F for 30, 162F for 30, 170F for 10. This is known as a Hochkurz mash. Each step has its purpose but the net result is good fermentability, body AND foam stability. A single infusion mash at 148 is going to leave you a thin watery beer with no body or foam. Likewise if you ratchet it up a few degrees you're going to have a mash with all alpha amylase activity, which is going to give you a sweet and low attenuating beer. This will really detract from the hop punch. You want 80-85% apparent attenuation. Anything less and your hops won't be center stage and the beer will be cloying and heavy. Also an interesting fact is that unfermented but fermentable extract tastes better than unfermented and unfermentable extract, if that makes sense.

Boil
6. Gentle simmer. Target 6-10% boil off. Anything more is excessive. Less is asking for DMS.
7. Chill rapidly to your steep temperatures and then to your final fermentation temp.

Hops
8. This is another area that is up for you to decide what you like. BUT if there's one thing i've found to be universal across all styles its that old hops make sh1tty IPA of any variation. Do yourself a favor and buy all your hops online from a reputable vendor that will sell you the most recent crop year. Seriously. It makes a BIG difference in this style of beer. I throw out a lb of unused miscellaneous hops every year and buy fresh stuff because it makes that big of a difference. This is especially true with your hop bombs.
9. Decide what YOU like. How do you like your bitterness? Soft/firm? How do you like your aromas and flavors? Do you like citrus flavors or dank flavors or pine flavors or earthy flavors?
10. Quantity - I'm going to suggest you need roughly 1 lb per 5 G. Roughly. Think roughly 1/3 in the boil, 1/3 steep and 1/3 dry hop. This isn't a rule. Decide what you like and adjust more or less.

Fermentation
11. Pitch aggressively. This means HUGE starters if using liquid yeasts or 2-3 packs per 5 gallons of dry yeast.
12. Shouldn't need to be stated, but active temp control is key here. If you don't have this, find a way. It's the #1 most important thing in brewing high quality beer.

Dry Hopping
13. You need to dry hop during active fermentation. There's some variation out there but i'd get the first charge in no later than 1.020. Some people add first charge with the yeast and then a second later in fermentation. I can't tell you what's right or wrong here other than its a necessary step to do during fermentation to get the real juice flavors. Something to play with.

Packaging
14. Beer shouldn't stay in the primary fermenter any longer than needed. Ideally you would transfer your beer to your serving keg with a couple gravity points left. Second best would be to transfer not long (meaning hours to a day if possible) after reaching final gravity. Add priming sugar to the fermenter first, wait about 30-60 minutes, then transfer. In either case you can seal the keg and it'll carbonate itself naturally. This is the best possible scenario because that active yeast will scavenge any oxygen you pick up. Second best would be to add priming sugar


This isn't meant to be the end-all-be-all-guide to NEIPA or any other style. But beer is the sum of its parts. Sounds like you're on the right track and just need some more practice.

Can you confirm any brewery out there step mashing NEIPAs? everything i've read recommends simple single infusion mashes. not to mention mashing at 170? say what?

 

[schematix]

not to mention mashing at 170? say what?

never heard of a mash out?

 

[Dextersmom]

Sorry didn't read it as a mash out... But my question still remains

 

[murphyslaw]

I can understand not liking a beer style, but I can't understand why people who don't like NEIPAs constantly flood threads about brewing better NEIPAs with rants about the supposed inferiority of the style.

That being said, anyone who doesn't like NEPIAs either has never tried a good one fresh. And if they have, they are just cursed with bad taste. Sorry. Its a fact.

 

[Dextersmom]

Agreed I giggle slightly when someone enters a comment thread to bash a style they don't like for whatever reason.

Also I call malarkey on the need to use a step schedule traditionally used in lagers as a method for making better neipa.

 

[schematix]

Also I call malarkey on the need to use a step schedule traditionally used in lagers as a method for making better neipa.

It's not a requirement.

My experience is that step mashes give a beer that I prefer across all styles.... lagers, IPAs, bitters, ambers, whatever. There is good science why to do one. So it's what I promote.

Do what you like or you have the capability to do.