How can people possibly get super hoppy “juicy” NEIPA flavors so quickly

[Azura]

This. I get 100% IBUs from 10 mins through WP. I started with only 60 min an WP additions and had the same "it's good but lacks flavor" issue that you're talking about.

I do a pretty big 10 min, a FO and a WP addition and target 50 IBUs in Brewer's Friend. Bland is not what I'd call these beers. I went to a local homebrew club meeting for the first time last week. Comments were that it was bursting with flavor/aroma. The old school, gotta-be-in-the-BJCP-guide folks obviously weren't thrilled, but everyone else was asking for more.

I'm glad you observed that. The best advice I can give to homebrewers chasing a good NEIPA is to drop all your flavor hops at 10 minutes and chill as quickly as you can at flame out. The super fast chillers may have an extra 5 minutes to play with either way. Use them wisely.

Dropping all the hops at 170F doesn't extract enough of the goods that remain stable. Don't be afraid of calculated IBU from 10-0.

 

[Azura]

This is really interesting.... so I should distribute my hops 10, FO, Whirlpool evenly and skip the 60..... you might be on to something.

What about these other ideas? Skip it or might be beneficial?
1) Change my grain bill? Use Honey malt or Golden Promise?
2) Mash at 148
3) Add corn sugar to last 10 mins of boil to dry out a bit more
4) Adjust water chemistry more to have more pronounced hops/bitter/dryness, less malt flavor?

1 - Honey malt will provide more sweetness. That increases the perception of juice. Golden Promise is a really good light bready malt that will increase bready perception and decrease sweetness becuase it's a little more fermentable than other base malts

2 - mash at 148 decreases FG, residual sweetness and peception of juice.

3 - corn sugar does the same as #2

4 - water is complicated, but the NEIPA people claim more Cl than SO4 is desirable.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

This is really interesting.... so I should distribute my hops 10, FO, Whirlpool evenly and skip the 60..... you might be on to something.

What about these other ideas? Skip it or might be beneficial?
1) Change my grain bill? Use Honey malt or Golden Promise?
2) Mash at 148
3) Add corn sugar to last 10 mins of boil to dry out a bit more
4) Adjust water chemistry more to have more pronounced hops/bitter/dryness, less malt flavor?

I mash at 152 because I want a little more body. Trillium beers are really dry so a lower mash temp is probably a good idea if you wan that. I did a clone that had zero flaked oats or wheat...just white wheat, pale ale malt, some light crystal and some dextrine. It was dry and tasty...scored a 41 in a local competition.

For water chem, I do 150 ppm chloride and 75 ppm sulfate. I shoot for a mash pH of 5.3 which usually means about 2 oz of acidulated malt.

I'd save the corn sugar for DIPA versions where you want to increase the abv w/o increasing the FG. I did honey malt for the last couple, I can't say that I noticed a difference. I've also tried golden naked oats instead of flaked oats. That did seem to improve head retention, which is what I was going for.

The bottom line is that, for NEIPAs, the hops are the star. They're typically so up front that the grain bill takes a back seat. With the inbalance, the grain bill isn't as critical. Adding some vienna or using all maris otter is worth trying if you want to get more balance.

 

[Dcioni]

I'm glad you observed that. The best advice I can give to homebrewers chasing a good NEIPA is to drop all your flavor hops at 10 minutes and chill as quickly as you can at flame out. The super fast chillers may have an extra 5 minutes to play with either way. Use them wisely.

Dropping all the hops at 170F doesn't extract enough of the goods that remain stable. Don't be afraid of calculated IBU from 10-0.

I'm definitely going to try this for my next brew. Question -- what is the benefit of whirlpool hops for NEIPA, then, if they dont really contribute much flavor?

 

[Azura]

As far as national distribution, it's not really practical for the style as they really must be enjoyed fresh. Shipping them across the country isn't practical so NEIPAs are, by nature, a regional product at best. The fact that breweries all across the country are adding them to their taplists and selling them out at record rates is a pretty solid testimony to their nationwide popularity. Weldwerks, for example, is in colorado. I don't think NE homies in colorado are pimping their ratings.

Oh, and if Pseudo Sue is the only TG you've had, then I can understand your "meh" reaction. It's far from their best beer. Have Scorpius Morchella sometime and get back to me (if you even like NEIPAs...if not, then...why comment on them). I won't even start on their BA stouts...

Psuedo Sue was a top rated pale until they shipped outside of Iowa. That is my point here. I guarantee you thought it was awesome when it was an Iowa exclusive that got national attention.

Claiming a NEIPA can't be shipped across the country and remain stable is questionable. We already have at least one lodo NEIPA brewer here that claims his NEIPAs remain not only stable, but 90% as good as the freshest example for months. If he can do it, the pros can too!

 

[Azura]

I'm definitely going to try this for my next brew. Question -- what is the benefit of whirlpool hops for NEIPA, then, if they dont really contribute much flavor?

That's a good question. Hops dumped below 170F do contribute to flavor and aroma. They contribute a very small amount of ibu. Flavor oils extract slower at 170F than 212F. They also evaporate faster at 212F than 170F. It's a give vs take thing. The flavor appears to favor a hotter extraction temp in the 10-20 minute contact time vs a low isomerization temp whirlpool of the same time.

That doesn't mean there is no place for lower temp steeps. If you become comfortable with moderate bitterness, the lower temperature steeps can enhance the flavor and aroma of every traditional IPA or PA recipe without significantly increasing bitterness.

 

[eric19312]

On the whole EC WC thing I've been hearing that many many of the WC breweries are jumping on the NEIPA craze too.

 

[Azura]

I often read people are brewing NEIPAs w 7-9 day fermentation schedule, putting into a keg, quick carbing, and claiming they’re getting fruity, juicy, crisp NEIPAs...Is this their own bias and somewhat they’re full of it?

Any thoughts?

Since there is no universal standard for taste, the subjective nature of your question is hard to answer without an opinion. IMO, many of the really happy to be drinking a 10 day old IPA people do not have the same palate as me. It's also possible they are a lot less patient. I prefer to make IPA recipes that taste better with more that 10 days of age.

 

[Azura]

On the whole EC WC thing I've been hearing that many many of the WC breweries are jumping on the NEIPA craze too.

Sure there are WC breweries tinkering with NEIPA. There are also many small breweries from anywhere hoping to get a sales bump by brewing a trendy style poorly. I'm betting the top 10 IPAs in the country in terms of sales volume sell a lot more than all the NEIPAs combined.

 

[eric19312]

Sure there are WC breweries tinkering with NEIPA. There are also many small breweries from anywhere hoping to get a sales bump by brewing a trendy style poorly. I'm betting the top 10 IPAs in the country in terms of sales volume sell a lot more than all the NEIPAs combined.

Prob AB InBev Goose Island IPA does. But that’s distribution, not taste.

 

[Dcioni]

True but distribution and mass production would lead to higher sales... not a better tasting product..

Sure there are WC breweries tinkering with NEIPA. There are also many small breweries from anywhere hoping to get a sales bump by brewing a trendy style poorly. I'm betting the top 10 IPAs in the country in terms of sales volume sell a lot more than all the NEIPAs combined.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Sure there are WC breweries tinkering with NEIPA. There are also many small breweries from anywhere hoping to get a sales bump by brewing a trendy style poorly. I'm betting the top 10 IPAs in the country in terms of sales volume sell a lot more than all the NEIPAs combined.

And Bud light sells more than all of THOSE combined.
Sales volume has absolutely zero to do with whether your beer is any good.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

OP, I think this thread has derailed away from your original question.
Are you asking how to make your base beer taste better?
That's a question of grain bill and mash schedule (and possibly water chemistry).

Are you asking how we get such bright, potent hops flavors so quickly?
That's a matter of freshness. All debate about west coast/east coast, etc is irrelevant - the fact is that the bright, fresh, in-your-face fruitiness you get in a good NEIPA is all about freshness. More time on the hops beyond about a week does not help with that, and in fact, will start to reduce that flavor characteristic. Time may mellow and blend the flavors, which might be more to the taste of some, but if you want that character that the better commercial NEIPAs are known for, the key is freshness and a compressed timeframe.

 

[BucksIPA]

On the whole EC WC thing I've been hearing that many many of the WC breweries are jumping on the NEIPA craze too.

Im not sure what is so revolutionary about ne juicy ipa’s. The only thing i see is that they are generally cloudy. The west coast, and pacific northwest have been producing these raw hop tasting ipas for alot longer than the east coast. Hops are grown in the pnw and they have been doing this with beer for a long time. It took a long time to actually get to the east coast, now that it is here it is some revolutionary thing, its just a cloudy pnw ipa.

On another note, alot of brewers are using hop syrum as a dry hop addition

 

[Dcioni]

Agree it’s derailing and would to get it back on track. Ultimately it’s that I’m not getting juicy bright hop punch like the pros. Sounds like dumping in 95+% of my hops at 170 whirlpool is causing me problems... will move more hop additions up to 10 min and FO. Any other tips?

OP, I think this thread has derailed away from your original question.
Are you asking how to make your base beer taste better?
That's a question of grain bill and mash schedule (and possibly water chemistry).

Are you asking how we get such bright, potent hops flavors so quickly?
That's a matter of freshness. All debate about west coast/east coast, etc is irrelevant - the fact is that the bright, fresh, in-your-face fruitiness you get in a good NEIPA is all about freshness. More time on the hops beyond about a week does not help with that, and in fact, will start to reduce that flavor characteristic. Time may mellow and blend the flavors, which might be more to the taste of some, but if you want that character that the better commercial NEIPAs are known for, the key is freshness and a compressed timeframe.

 

[BucksIPA]

Agree it’s derailing and would to get it back on track. Ultimately it’s that I’m not getting juicy bright hop punch like the pros. Sounds like dumping in 95+% of my hops at 170 whirlpool is causing me problems... will move more hop additions up to 10 min and FO. Any other tips?

Try the c02 hop extract as a dry hop addition

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Agree it’s derailing and would to get it back on track. Ultimately it’s that I’m not getting juicy bright hop punch like the pros. Sounds like dumping in 95+% of my hops at 170 whirlpool is causing me problems... will move more hop additions up to 10 min and FO. Any other tips?

There's nothing wrong with your whirlpool additions, but you will get more bitterness from them than most people initially think. That NEIPA aroma and flavor is mostly from dry hops, much of which is added at high kreusen.
My current NEIPA got no boil hops, 2 oz at flameout, 3 oz at pitching, 3 oz at high kreusen, and 3 oz in the keg.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Im not sure what is so revolutionary about ne juicy ipa’s. The only thing i see is that they are generally cloudy. The west coast, and pacific northwest have been producing these raw hop tasting ipas for alot longer than the east coast. Hops are grown in the pnw and they have been doing this with beer for a long time. It took a long time to actually get to the east coast, now that it is here it is some revolutionary thing, its just a cloudy pnw ipa.

On another note, alot of brewers are using hop syrum as a dry hop addition

Actually, there is quite a difference. I lived in CA and OR a few years ago and now live in New England. I say that because I've had the opportunity to live local to big-name breweries doing both styles.
Whereas WCIPA is heavy on bitterness, NEIPA is not - in fact they can be quite low in perceived bitterness.
It's also the types of hops being used. WC has traditionally leaned toward the piney, sappy, and classic citrus (grapefruit) like you get from Cascade, Centennial, Chinook, etc.
NEIPA leans more toward varieties that produce fruity flavors, like orange, mango,pineapple, stone fruit.
Of course both styles are now cross-pollinating and the line is becoming less distinct, especially as breweries across the country and on the WC are trying to capitalize on the popularity of the style, but if you are talking about the prototypical examples of each, the differences are pretty stark.

This isn't a dig on you, but I'm guessing you aren't in the northeast much and haven't had a lot of examples of the better NEIPAs (Treehouse, Trillium, Hill Farmstead, etc. products)? Heady Topper isn't actually very typical of the style it helped popularize.
Like I said, that's not an attack on you, I ask only to get an idea of where your perception that NEIPA is just a cloudy WCIPA.

 

[BucksIPA]

Actually, there is quite a difference. I lived in CA and OR a few years ago and now live in New England. I say that because I've had the opportunity to live local to big-name breweries doing both styles.
Whereas WCIPA is heavy on bitterness, NEIPA is not - in fact they can be quite low in perceived bitterness.
It's also the types of hops being used. WC has traditionally leaned toward the piney, sappy, and classic citrus (grapefruit) like you get from Cascade, Centennial, Chinook, etc.
NEIPA leans more toward varieties that produce fruity flavors, like orange, mango,pineapple, stone fruit.
Of course both styles are now cross-pollinating and the line is becoming less distinct, especially as breweries across the country and on the WC are trying to capitalize on the popularity of the style, but if you are talking about the prototypical examples of each, the differences are pretty stark.
for a long time.
This isn't a dig on you, but I'm guessing you aren't in the northeast much and haven't had a lot of examples of the better NEIPAs (Treehouse, Trillium, Hill Farmstead, etc. products)? Heady Topper isn't actually very typical of the style it helped popularize.
Like I said, that's not an attack on you, I ask only to get an idea of where your perception that NEIPA is just a cloudy WCIPA.

This is the misunderstanding I think people have. They truly think it is something new and revolutionary. Making a fruity low perceived bitterness hop forward IPA. The NEIPA is just a cloudy copy of what has been going on in the pacific northwest for much longer. You can do a quick search on here of techniques and hop schedules and go through the history to see examples. When you say wcipas, there are plenty of them that are more traditional in being bitter, etc. They were the first doing more hop forward tasting beers with beers like pliney,sculpin, etc. At that time, the east coast was still producing these bitter bombs, get the most IBU in a beer possible craze. There were examples of these hop forward beers on the east coast such as heady topper.

In the pacific northwest they were creating very hop forward ipas, while reducing the bitterness profile, but utilizing huge amounts of late addition hops. They have been using all the traditional IPA hops such as centennial, cascade, chinook, etc, but they also have been using the others such as AMARILLO, CITRA, etc for a long time. You have to realize hops are grown in the pacific northwest, and that is where all these new breed hops are coming from in the US. The brewers up there have a key advantage from others around.

heres a quote of a boneyard IPA produced in Bend OR.
"Brewed using 6 different NW varieties of hops at over 2.5 pounds per barrel, RPM IPA focuses on extreme hoppiness rather than bitterness. It’s golden to copper in color with a complex malt profile that will not overshadow the hops. Our flagship, RPM IPA, will satisfy any opinionated hop forward IPA consumer"

They focus on IPA's that are NOT bitter forward, but rather hoppy. Depending on what hop is available, is what is getting used. This is what brewers up there have been doing before the NEIPA craze.

I live in PA and have had many juicy NEIPA examples, I just recognize it being a cloudy Bend IPA.

 

[eric19312]

I live in PA and have had many juicy NEIPA examples, I just recognize it being a cloudy Bend IPA.

So shall we start a campaign to change the name to Cascadian Pale Ale? I’m in [emoji28]

 

[Cavpilot2000]

This is the misunderstanding I think people have. They truly think it is something new and revolutionary.

I agree it's not brand new and revolutionary - more like an incremental shift over time until you stop and look and realize that where you are is not where you started.
And of course there have been breweries experimenting over time, and for all I know, there could have been dozens of breweries making things just like Heady Topper ten years ago. But if nobody notices it, and word doesn't get out, their innovation fails to catch on until somebody else does it and gets noticed as the innovator.

So while there are articles and forums that may have mentioned similar hopping schedules, it never caught on big. I mean, I've been brewing for over 20 years, and been trying new and interesting craft brews for even longer (and lived in the Bay area and Portland, OR from 2007-2010 where I tried everything new and local I could get my hands on) and when I tried Treehouse's Julius a few years ago, I had never had anything like it. Clearly it was still an IPA (unlike "black IPAs", which is just a dumb marketing term), and I've had and made cloudy IPAs before (the cloudiness is an irrelevancy to me), but it was decidedly different.

The thing is, if you don't think NEIPAs are distinct, then neither should you think WC IPAs are distinct. There should just be IPA, with its many different expressions. But once you start defining and labeling sub-categories, you have to acknowledge that they are different. Hell, maybe we should do away with style descriptors altogether, maybe not, but as long as we set rough guidelines on what defines a style or sub-category, you have to look at those defining characteristics.

Has WC IPA evolved over time? Of course, but you know as well as I do that there is set of characteristics that "define" a WC IPA (hence going to the trouble of giving it its own name), and the low bitterness, cloudiness, and tropical fruit hops flavors are most decidedly NOT part of that description.

So revolutionary? No.
Innovative? Absolutely.

Also, just so you know, I'm not trying to be argumentative with you - just putting out the alternative point of view to yours. Both sides of the argument have valid perspectives, but it looks like the term NEIPA is probably here to stay.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

So shall we start a campaign to change the name to Cascadian Pale Ale? I’m in [emoji28]

Oh Jesus...lol.
I hate the term "Black IPA", as does any serious beer fan, I think. Clearly it is a term invented and popularized by marketing and advertising people intent on capitalizing on the popularity of anything IPA.

But I dislike Cascadian Dark Ale almost as much. They don't necessarily use Cascade hops more than any other hop variety, and they don't originate from the Cascade Mountains either. I know people like to put labels on things and Hoppy Dark Ale isn't good for marketing (despite it being very descriptive), but CDA is just another marketing term that is neither descriptive nor historically based.

Okay, rant and digression over...

 

[BucksIPA]

The east coast seems to trail beer trends from the west coast. By the time they get here, they take all the technique that was created, alter it with a marketing haze in it, and bam juicy neipa.

To get that juicy flavor, youll see hop extract being added as a dry hop addition .

 

[Dextersmom]

And I'm not trying to sell a product, but I cannot emphasize enough what a difference the Clearbeer system has made for my NEIPAs.
I used to have to throw out so many of the first few pints because it was full of the yeast that was slow to fall out of suspension and that hot hop dust.
I just got the Clearbeer and put it in my fresh NEIPA last week and it's a world of difference. I'm not throwing away those first pints - I'm just drinking amazing beer with zero sediment. There are also other similar products and DIY options as well.

In my opinion that is the ONLY way to do NEIPA, especially while young, without throwing a bunch away.

off topic, with the clearbeer tool.... if i traditionally fill my kegs with sanitizer then push out with co2 and closed transfer into them....is this still possible?

 

[Azura]

And Bud light sells more than all of THOSE combined.
Sales volume has absolutely zero to do with whether your beer is any good.

First statement is a false equivalency. We aren't talking about macro lagers here.

Second statement is ludicrous and based on your singular opinion of what "good beer" is. If NEIPAs are so great, they should be outselling regular IPAs very soon.

 

[Azura]

True but distribution and mass production would lead to higher sales... not a better tasting product..

There is no reason why mass distribution can't maintain consistently good quality over a region much broader than the NE. If these NEIPA beers are so fragile that they need to be consumed within a week of canning to be very good, then they aren't that good...

 

[Azura]

My current NEIPA got no boil hops, 2 oz at flameout, 3 oz at pitching, 3 oz at high kreusen, and 3 oz in the keg.

You made a beer with ~20 ibu and want to call it an IPA? Pale Ales have more IBU. Sounds like you made a NEPA.

 

[Dextersmom]

This thread is no longer on topic...

 

[Azura]

Agree it’s derailing and would to get it back on track. Ultimately it’s that I’m not getting juicy bright hop punch like the pros. Sounds like dumping in 95+% of my hops at 170 whirlpool is causing me problems... will move more hop additions up to 10 min and FO. Any other tips?

Yes. Try to eliminate O2 from the fermenter to packaging. Another poster suggested lodo was absolutely necessary on the more complicated hot side too. I don't agree with that at all. It's very possible to make a juicy hop beer without hot side lodo that will be very good for at least a month in the keg. Some lodo bros want to drink a 4 month old IPA that they claim is 90% as good as it was after two weeks. There are zero American professionals that manage to do this.

 

[schematix]

Some lodo bros want to drink a 4 month old IPA that they claim is 90% as good as it was after two weeks.

I claimed 95% after 4-5 months if you look back into some other threads. Never been called a bro before though. Has a nice ring to it.

There are zero American professionals that manage to do this.

That's a big statement. Can you cite something to back it up?

Home brewers have the potential to have a big advantage on the packaging side when using kegs (bottling and canning is another issue). For one, we can refrigerate our product as soon as fermentation is complete and never let it warm back to room temp, or higher, ever again. That alone is extremely significant. Also with kegs there is full light exclusion. Bottles can't do that.

It is definitely doable.