Hop flavor vs. aroma ????

[seanppp]

I'd love to get some clarification on something. The old fashioned hopping scheme that we all know (bittering/flavor/aroma) implies that "flavor" additions are around middle-late in the boil and "aroma" additions are at the end of the boil. Is this really true? Are hop flavor and aroma all that different, with regard to the compounds that create them?

And what about dry hopping? Does that add just aroma or flavor and aroma?

I've had a couple commercial beers lately that had the most rich and beautiful hop aroma, and then when I take a drink I'm very underwhelmed by the hop flavor! This leads me to believe that hop flavor and aroma are in fact separate. I'm not especially interested in maximizing hop aroma in my own beers, so how might I go about maximizing hop flavor?

One more question: Could you design a beer that would have the opposite effect? Very little hop aroma and a huge hop flavor?

Thanks!

 

[texwake]

Im not a pro brewer, and this might not help at all; but I've always been told if you want more aroma add in the begining of the boil and add twards the end of the boil for flavor. Dry hopping adds more flavor becasue your not breaking down the hops charactertics. Ive brewed a beer which had lots of hop aroma but the taste sucked becasue I added the hop addition way too early. Ive also brewed a big beer and dry hopped and it did not have much hop aroma but lots of that oily hop goodness taste.

 

[sptaylor70]

The sense of taste and of smell are closely linked. Without visual or olfactory information, it's difficult to tell the difference between the taste of an apple and that of an onion.

Hop flavor tends to be maximized by hop additions between, say, thirty minutes and five minutes before the end of the boil. Dry hopping is all aroma, but highly-hopped styles (IPA, California Common, APA) need that extra aroma to maximize the flavor.

As for maximum flavor/minimum aroma, I would guess that you would give yourself the best performance by choosing a low-aroma hop and not adding any hops closer than fifteen minutes to the end of the boil.

 

[vraftsman]

Read this from John Palmer...
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter5-1.html

 

[TheZymurgist]

I think it's important to understand the relationship among flavor, taste, and aroma. What our brains interpret as flavor is made up of both taste and aroma. The taste buds on our tongues detect taste, which is only sweet, salty, sour, bitter, and savory. Olfactory nerves in our nose and throat detect aroma, which can be any number of sensations. An onion, for example, has no taste, only aroma. Even sweet onions are deceiving our brains into believing there is a "sweet" taste to it. This is also why we're told growing up to hold our noses if we don't like the taste of medicine. This only partially works because of the olfactory nerves in our throat and the fact that many medicines have a bitter and/or sweet taste.

To answer your question, when you're adding bitterness or aroma, you're adding flavor. Generally, if you add late addition hops, you'll have both the smell (before you drink it) and the flavor. However, I have had a few beers that have a very heavy hop aroma in the nose, but somehow that aroma doesn't come through in the flavor when tasting it. I'm not sure how this happens, although I would imagine there is something masking the flavor once it enters the mouth. A good example of this is Sierra Nevada's Bigfoot Barleywine. This beer has an amazing smell. Huge hop aromas smack you in the face when you open the bottle. However, this aroma is complete masked by the bitterness when I drink it. The flavor and the smell are drastically different, since we cannot smell bitterness.

http://www.brainfacts.org/sensing-t...and-perception/articles/2012/taste-and-smell/

http://www.tastingscience.info/Explained/FAQ.htm

 

[seanppp]

These are great answers, guys. Thanks a lot for the help.

It would seem that since flavor is taste+aroma, there is no real maximization of flavor in a hopping schedule, only maximization of aroma.

 

[TheZymurgist]

These are great answers, guys. Thanks a lot for the help.

It would seem that since flavor is taste+aroma, there is no real maximization of flavor in a hopping schedule, only maximization of aroma.

By increasing the aroma, you're increasing the flavor. Many people, when they hear "aroma" hops, they associate that only with smell, and think it has nothing to do with the actual flavor, which is a misunderstanding. So, if you're trying to maximize the flavor, the question is which aspect? Taste (bittering) or aroma (citrusy, piney, floral, etc.)? A change in either will have an effect on the flavor of the beer when you drink it. Aroma will have an effect on the smell as well, since we cannot smell bitterness. So your late hop additions are adding more aroma, which can be both smelled and "tasted" ("tasted" referring to our brains interpretation of flavor, since there isn't a better verb.)

A side note on not being able to smell bitterness, our brain can and sometimes does associate certain smells with the taste of bitterness, so it is sometimes possible to smell something and have a perception of bitterness, but that is only due to past associations where our brain has linked a certain scent with a bitter taste.

 

[vraftsman]

These are great answers, guys. Thanks a lot for the help.

It would seem that since flavor is taste+aroma, there is no real maximization of flavor in a hopping schedule, only maximization of aroma.

I'm not disagreeing with your premise here but I think the results you want are achievable with a little more research. If you want a large hop flavor without an overwhelming smell, it is possible, I've had beers like that, so it can be done. I think it's finding that fine balance of when to add the hops and also, which specific hops to use. We already know some varieties are better for bittering vs aroma, and so some, I'm sure, make better flavoring hops than others. Consider DFH 60/90/120, is this the profile you're looking for? not completely harsh dry bitter, and achieved by a "continuous" hop addition through the boil. Sorry this doesn't really answer the question as much as it raises more. Cheers.

 

[ArcLight]

For the most flavor , add more hops at 15 or 20 minutes before flame out.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/attach...ing-cause-hop-flavor-lost-hop_utilization.jpg

 

[Ilan34]

For the most flavor , add more hops at 15 or 20 minutes before flame out.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/attach...ing-cause-hop-flavor-lost-hop_utilization.jpg

Where is this chart from?

 

[TheZymurgist]

Where is this chart from?

I've seen that somewhere before, but it's complete crap. First, there's distinction of flavor from bitterness and aroma. Bitterness and aroma make up flavor, so you can't have a "flavor" addition. They're all flavor additions.

Second, there's no way aroma will taper off after five minute additions. If they did, there would be no reason to do a hop stand, no reason to add hops at flame out, and no reason to dry hop.

 

[ArcLight]

Second, there's no way aroma will taper off after five minute additions. If they did, there would be no reason to do a hop stand, no reason to add hops at flame out, and no reason to dry hop.

A hop stand is below boiling so the volatile aromatics are not being driven off as they are during a full boil.
There is a real reason you never see a recipe add aroma hops for more than 5 minutes. (or 7 minutes if this chart is anywhere near accurate)

While I don't vouch for the charts accuracy, nor do i know where it's from I suspect that hops that are boiled for 60 minutes might not taste as good s a 15 minute boil, though they will add more bitterness.

 

[AlCophile]

Check out beerlegends and hopunion; last I looked they had the compositions of organic chemical flavor and aroma compounds given in %-by-weight for about 100 hop varieties. You may be able to relate these amounts to actual hops you may have tasted.

 

[AlCophile]

ArcLight:
Re your email:
I just checked those 2 refs., http://beerlegends.com and www.hopunion.com

 

[ArcLight]

Check out beerlegends and hopunion; last I looked they had the compositions of organic chemical flavor and aroma compounds given in %-by-weight for about 100 hop varieties. You may be able to relate these amounts to actual hops you may have tasted.

What I was looking for is aroma and flavor utilization per minute boiled.
There are charts that show that for bitterness.
I wonder if there is something similar for aroma and flavor?

Hop X may have more Myrcene than hop Y, but neither will yield much flavor with 1 minute of boiling.
How does the flavor vary with 15 minutes of boiling?
30 minutes?
60 minutes?
Does the flavor begin to fade, as the bitterness increases?

 

[MikePote]

Great discussion.

This makes me think of when I was in fifth grade I was picked by one of my friends to be his guinea pig in front of the class for an expirment. He had me close my eyes and plug my nose. I was given an apple to chew on but not swallow. After a few seconds I was asked what I was eating, which I knew was an apple but it was not strong. Then I was told to let go of my nose and the apple flavor was normal. Immediately I had an onion put in front of my nose (eyes still closed) and I spit out the apple all over the first couple people in the class because of the shock of the onion "taste" in my mouth. I have always remembered this when trying to figure out the flavor/aroma of hop additions.

 

[TheZymurgist]

A hop stand is below boiling so the volatile aromatics are not being driven off as they are during a full boil.
There is a real reason you never see a recipe add aroma hops for more than 5 minutes. (or 7 minutes if this chart is anywhere near accurate)

While I don't vouch for the charts accuracy, nor do i know where it's from I suspect that hops that are boiled for 60 minutes might not taste as good s a 15 minute boil, though they will add more bitterness.

What I was looking for is aroma and flavor utilization per minute boiled.
There are charts that show that for bitterness.
I wonder if there is something similar for aroma and flavor?

Hop X may have more Myrcene than hop Y, but neither will yield much flavor with 1 minute of boiling.
How does the flavor vary with 15 minutes of boiling?
30 minutes?
60 minutes?
Does the flavor begin to fade, as the bitterness increases?

ArcLight, I think either you missed my point, or I don't understand your response. The longer hops are boiled, the more bitterness they contribute (isomerization of certain oils), and the less aroma they contribute (due to the boiling off of more volatile aroma-contributing oils.) Go back and read what I posted. There is no distinction between flavor and aroma.

So your response was basically in agreement with what I was saying, except that you may still get some aroma from additions earlier than 5 or 7 minutes. I'm not sure what the rate of boil off is for the aroma compounds, so I can't speak scientifically as to exactly how much aroma a 30 or 15 minute addition will contribute. My point was merely to point out the fact that that chart shows a drop off of aroma contributed by additions after a certain point, which is just not true. The later a hop is added, the more aroma it will contribute because those aroma compounds are not being driven off.

 

[TheZymurgist]

Does the flavor begin to fade, as the bitterness increases?

Absolutely. There are (generally) two types of oils that contribute flavor from hops. The oils that are isomerized and contribute bitterness, and the volatile oils that contribute aroma. The longer a hop is boiled, the more isomerization occurs (more bitterness) and the more the volatile oils are driven off (less aroma). That's the entire reason for staggering additions, to obtain a balance of bitterness and aroma.

 

[ArcLight]

ArcLight, I think either you missed my point, or I don't understand your response. The longer hops are boiled, the more bitterness they contribute (isomerization of certain oils), and the less aroma they contribute (due to the boiling off of more volatile aroma-contributing oils.) Go back and read what I posted. There is no distinction between flavor and aroma.

So your response was basically in agreement with what I was saying, except that you may still get some aroma from additions earlier than 5 or 7 minutes. I'm not sure what the rate of boil off is for the aroma compounds, so I can't speak scientifically as to exactly how much aroma a 30 or 15 minute addition will contribute. My point was merely to point out the fact that that chart shows a drop off of aroma contributed by additions after a certain point, which is just not true. The later a hop is added, the more aroma it will contribute because those aroma compounds are not being driven off.

Actually, I think it's you who misunderstaood and mis-stated what I was saying. And you are contradicting yourself.
And you don't understand the chart.

Earlier in the thread you wrote:

>.Second, there's no way aroma will taper off after five minute additions. If they did, there would be no reason to do a hop stand, no reason to add hops at flame out, and no reason to dry hop.

You are wrong.

If you add hops and let them boil the aroma compounds will be driven off after a short while. It doesn't mean they are gone after 5 minutes (or 7 minutes if the chart is accurate), but the aroma will decline at some point.

>>My point was merely to point out the fact that that chart shows a drop off of aroma contributed by additions after a certain point, which is just not true.

Are you disagreeing with the time it shows (5-7 minutes for peak aroma) ?
Or do you truly believe that if you add aroma hops and boil them for an hour the beer will have the same aroma as if the hops were added at the last 5 minutes, or in a hop stand?


Do you think adding a flavor hop at 60 minutes compared to 15 minutes will taste the same?
They wont, even factoring out bitterness.

>>The later a hop is added, the more aroma it will contribute because those aroma compounds are not being driven off.

That's what the chart says. Add the aroma hops in the last 7 minutes of the boil.

 

[Ilan34]

I believe that what TheZymurgist is saying is that there is no way that aroma tapers off with additions later in the boil than five minutes. You guys are saying the same thing, but misunderstanding each other.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[TheZymurgist]

Actually, I think it's you who misunderstaood and mis-stated what I was saying. And you are contradicting yourself.
And you don't understand the chart.

Earlier in the thread you wrote:

>.Second, there's no way aroma will taper off after five minute additions. If they did, there would be no reason to do a hop stand, no reason to add hops at flame out, and no reason to dry hop.

You are wrong.

If you add hops and let them boil the aroma compounds will be driven off after a short while. It doesn't mean they are gone after 5 minutes (or 7 minutes if the chart is accurate), but the aroma will decline at some point.

>>My point was merely to point out the fact that that chart shows a drop off of aroma contributed by additions after a certain point, which is just not true.

Are you disagreeing with the time it shows (5-7 minutes for peak aroma) ?
Or do you truly believe that if you add aroma hops and boil them for an hour the beer will have the same aroma as if the hops were added at the last 5 minutes, or in a hop stand?


Do you think adding a flavor hop at 60 minutes compared to 15 minutes will taste the same?
They wont, even factoring out bitterness.

>>The later a hop is added, the more aroma it will contribute because those aroma compounds are not being driven off.

That's what the chart says. Add the aroma hops in the last 7 minutes of the boil.

I believe that what TheZymurgist is saying is that there is no way that aroma tapers off with additions later in the boil than five minutes. You guys are saying the same thing, but misunderstanding each other.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Home Brew mobile app

He's right, I was unclear.

What I should have said is this: The chart (at least the way I read it) is saying that there is a drop off in the aroma attributed by hops added after the 7 minute mark. The green line should actually go up to 100% at zero minutes. This chart is saying that a hop added at flame out adds zero aroma, and hops added at 7 minutes contribute the most aroma. I disagree with that, because even the 7 minute hops are going to experience some boil off, so the aroma line on the chart should start at zero and steadily increase until the end of the boil, similarly to how the bittering line starts at 100% and steadily decreases throughout the boil.

This is a more accurate chart:

 

[ArcLight]

What is the source data for the chart?

>>What I should have said is this: The chart (at least the way I read it) is saying that there is a drop off in the aroma attributed by hops added after the 7 minute mark.

I think you are looking at it the wrong way. The chart says that if you boil hops for more than around 7 minutes it begins to lose aroma. Maybe the shape of the curve isn't quite right, but it seems more correct than the one you just posted. After boiling 30 minutes I don't think there is much aroma left.

 

[TheZymurgist]

What is the source data for the chart?

>>What I should have said is this: The chart (at least the way I read it) is saying that there is a drop off in the aroma attributed by hops added after the 7 minute mark.

I think you are looking at it the wrong way. The chart says that if you boil hops for more than around 7 minutes it begins to lose aroma. Maybe the shape of the curve isn't quite right, but it seems more correct than the one you just posted. After boiling 30 minutes I don't think there is much aroma left.

Ok, we're definitely reading the chart differently. The way I interpret it (ignoring the stupid blue "Flavor" line) is this: If a hop is added at 60 minutes left in the boil (X=60), according to this chart, we will achieve 95% of total potential bitterness, and no aroma; if a hop is added at 40 minutes left in the boil, we will get 70% of the total potential bitterness, and still no aroma; if a hop is added at 20 minutes, 25% of potential bitterness, and so on.

If we read the aroma line the same way, then a hop added at 15 minutes left in the boil will contribute 10% of total potential aroma, a hop addition at 7 minutes left in the boil will give you 100% potential aroma, and any hops added after 7 minutes will give you diminishing returns, i.e. a hop added at 2.5 minutes only gives you 50% of the potential aroma.

The chart says that if you boil hops for more than around 7 minutes it begins to lose aroma.

It also says that if you add a hop at less than about seven minutes, you aren't getting as much aroma as if you boil a hop for seven minutes. The aroma line is basically at 0% for hops added at flame out, but we all know that the later a hop is added the more aroma is contributed. The green line should be at 100% at X=0.

According to the chart I posted, a hop added at 60 minutes will contribute 100% bitterness and 0% aroma, where a hop added at 0 minutes will contribute 0% bitterness, and 100% aroma. Like you said, the curves may not be right, but it is more accurate than saying a hop added at 2.5 minutes will only contribute 50% aroma.

 

[dobe12]

For the most flavor , add more hops at 15 or 20 minutes before flame out.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/attach...ing-cause-hop-flavor-lost-hop_utilization.jpg

This is exactly why for a lot of beers and specifically APA and IPAs I like to add multiple additions between 20min and flame out. For example my citra pale ale (which is awesome by the way) uses a hop schedule like this:

1/2oz 60min
1/2oz 15min
1/2oz 10mi
1/2oz 5min
1oz flame out
1.5oz dry hop

If using a less dominant hop I would double the 10, 5, flame out additions. I cut them back slightly with the Citra since it's so dominating.