How do you get more hop flavor than aroma in an IPA/APA?

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Sleepy_D

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My IPAs and APAs get big hop additions at the end of the boil and dry hops. They have awesome aroma but are severely lacking in the flavor department. Both have hip additions at 10 or 15 minutes as well that I thought would help with this issue. Someone told me before to do a blend of cryo or lupomax with normal T90 pellets but I have no idea if that will work or not. What do you think?
 
"severely lacking in the flavor department" seems strange given the rest of the information.
How are you actually introducing the late boil hops? Bags? Spider? Or free-swimming?

Cheers!
 
"severely lacking in the flavor department" seems strange given the rest of the information.
How are you actually introducing the late boil hops? Bags? Spider? Or free-swimming?

Cheers!
All kettle hops are loose. I dry hop in bags or cylinders
 
Try moving your 10-15 minute hop additions to the last 0-2 minutes of the boil. Boom.
The last APA I made had 1 oz at 10 minutes, 3 oz in a 15 minute hop stand at 175 f, and 4 oz in a 48 hr dry hop. Think it would be more beneficial to move the 10 min to flame out or add the hopstand hops at flameout so they enter when it’s hotter?
 
The last APA I made had 1 oz at 10 minutes, 3 oz in a 15 minute hop stand at 175 f, and 4 oz in a 48 hr dry hop. Think it would be more beneficial to move the 10 min to flame out or add the hopstand hops at flameout so they enter when it’s hotter?
Yes, those actions should improve flavor extraction.

And, that's a hop regimen for an IPA, not an APA. However, I might just be an old fuddy-duddy. "Session IPA"?
 
Yes, those actions should improve flavor extraction.

And, that's a hop regimen for an IPA, not an APA. However, I might just be an old fuddy-duddy. "Session IPA"?
Malt bill and bitterness put it squarely in APA territory. These days if you want to compete with everyone else the APAs need to have big dry hops lol
 
Use hop pellets or hop extract instead of whole hops or hop plugs. Pellets and extract are more concentrated and can provide more hop flavor without as much aroma.

Use hops that are high in alpha acids and low in beta acids. Alpha acids contribute to the bittering of the beer, while beta acids contribute to the aroma. By using hops with a higher ratio of alpha to beta acids, you can get more hop flavor and less aroma.

Add hops late in the boil or during dry hopping. Adding hops late in the boil or during dry hopping will add hop flavor without contributing as much aroma.

Use a low-alpha hop variety as a late addition. Low-alpha hops have less alpha acids and are therefore less bitter. They can be added late in the boil or during dry hopping to add hop flavor without contributing much bitterness.

Adjust the pH of the wort. A lower pH will extract more hop flavor and less aroma from the hops. This can be achieved by adding acids such as lactic or phosphoric acid to the wort.
 
The biggest difference I got when I started using a 30 minute hopstand @ 85c. This can easily replace all previous additions, so it can be hop stand and dry hop only. The factor is about 12% of the ibus that you would get from the same hopping in a boil.
 
The biggest difference I got when I started using a 30 minute hopstand @ 85c. This can easily replace all previous additions, so it can be hop stand and dry hop only. The factor is about 12% of the ibus that you would get from the same hopping in a boil.
I’m going to have to try an extended hop stand I think. Last time I did one for just 15 minutes at about 75c. Do you add those hops once you get to that temp and then hold it for 30 minutes? Have you tried a hop stand longer than 30 minutes?
 
I’m going to have to try an extended hop stand I think. Last time I did one for just 15 minutes at about 75c. Do you add those hops once you get to that temp and then hold it for 30 minutes? Have you tried a hop stand longer than 30 minutes?
I actually chilled the liquid to 87c, threw in the hops, waited 30 minutes and it was down to about 82, so the average is about 85c.

If I could keep it steady at 85c, I would do so.

I think longer would also work, but I was a bit impatient.
 
I’m going to have to try an extended hop stand I think. Last time I did one for just 15 minutes at about 75c. Do you add those hops once you get to that temp and then hold it for 30 minutes? Have you tried a hop stand longer than 30 minutes?
I'd recommend using 165F(~75c) for 20 minutes. I find 175F a little too hot and that it seems to drive off a little more of the flavor I am looking for. If unable to hold around 165, go a little longer. I have whirlpooled at 155F for 30 minutes before. I wasn't holding the temperature when I did it and I would say I didn't extract as much flavor as I expected. I've since figured out that I can hold temps fairly well in my BK when setting the element power around 15%. I'd try a very low simmer if I was using gas and work up slowly to maintain the desired temp so as not to overshoot.
 
I'd recommend using 165F(~75c) for 20 minutes. I find 175F a little too hot and that it seems to drive off a little more of the flavor I am looking for. If unable to hold around 165, go a little longer. I have whirlpooled at 155F for 30 minutes before. I wasn't holding the temperature when I did it and I would say I didn't extract as much flavor as I expected. I've since figured out that I can hold temps fairly well in my BK when setting the element power around 15%. I'd try a very low simmer if I was using gas and work up slowly to maintain the desired temp so as not to overshoot.
I'll try the lower temperature next time. Main reason why I went so high was that I needed to get the complete bitterness from only the hop stand.
 
I'll try the lower temperature next time. Main reason why I went so high was that I needed to get the complete bitterness from only the hop stand.
Nothing wrong with doing that, I've seen it mentioned in a couple articles where the pros are just whirlpooling with no or extremely late boil additions. When I was first trying out whirlpooling, I was using 175F, then I worked down to 170 and now typically use either 165 or 155F. I have stayed away from that higher range of whirlpool temps, mainly because I was already adding bittering hops during the boil. It's not that the higher whirlpool temps drive away all of the aroma/flavor, but it is what I have been looking for myself as well. There's different compounds in there, you've probably seen those radar graphs of hops showing different components to the hops. I don't profess to understanding them well but there are likely different temps affecting each of those. One thing I tried once is a double whirlpool but I can't seem to find the recipe. It does take a bit of extra time and it makes the brew day longer.

It's good that you noted your endpoint temperature. If people don't note that, it's hard to experiment the next time. It helps to know what stages the temperatures are passing through to get a feel for how the hops may be behaving. I was kind of haphazardly adding bursts of heat in the past when the temperature would drop 10F degrees but then I decided to get a little more precise with a low power setting so as to not overshoot.

I'll mention this thought too while I'm here, it's more opinion. It's probably a good idea that if the higher whirlpooling temperature range is used, that the hop in question be a dual use hop.
 
Nothing wrong with doing that, I've seen it mentioned in a couple articles where the pros are just whirlpooling with no or extremely late boil additions. When I was first trying out whirlpooling, I was using 175F, then I worked down to 170 and now typically use either 165 or 155F. I have stayed away from that higher range of whirlpool temps, mainly because I was already adding bittering hops during the boil. It's not that the higher whirlpool temps drive away all of the aroma/flavor, but it is what I have been looking for myself as well. There's different compounds in there, you've probably seen those radar graphs of hops showing different components to the hops. I don't profess to understanding them well but there are likely different temps affecting each of those. One thing I tried once is a double whirlpool but I can't seem to find the recipe. It does take a bit of extra time and it makes the brew day longer.

It's good that you noted your endpoint temperature. If people don't note that, it's hard to experiment the next time. It helps to know what stages the temperatures are passing through to get a feel for how the hops may be behaving. I was kind of haphazardly adding bursts of heat in the past when the temperature would drop 10F degrees but then I decided to get a little more precise with a low power setting so as to not overshoot.

I'll mention this thought too while I'm here, it's more opinion. It's probably a good idea that if the higher whirlpooling temperature range is used, that the hop in question be a dual use hop.
Your idea with the different components being affected differently at different temperatures is pretty much correct I think. Scott janish addresses these compounds and different temperature stages in his book in detail, which is really interesting. If you don't have it already, I'd recommend it if you are interested in these type of hoppy things!
 
Your idea with the different components being affected differently at different temperatures is pretty much correct I think. Scott janish addresses these compounds and different temperature stages in his book in detail, which is really interesting. If you don't have it already, I'd recommend it if you are interested in these type of hoppy things!
The New IPA book? Nope haven't seen it but it does look interesting. I did spot this on his website as well. Can't say I've ever seen PCA put to much practical use but this is potentially an exception! Very cool thanks!
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