Thanks much!
Homemade Bread Thread
- Thread starter deadfall
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
Thanks much!
Robert65
Major Obvious (recently promoted)
Last edited:
Beautiful!
Lucky man, on the WW flour. I ended up getting bulk from Central milling because I use so much but stores? Forget it. Most of the time, forget all flour, which blows my mind, to be honest.
Scary stuff.
Robert65
Major Obvious (recently promoted)
I cringe at the thought of all these people who have never made bread before in their lives, wasting all the flour on failed efforts, when if they'd not interfered with the supply chain... well I'll stop before my blood pressure gets any higher.
applescrap
Be the ball!
Thanks for sharing your mastery with us. Looks great. I dont eat much whole grain bread, but this really helps me as I got a bag of stone ground wheat flour and have been trying to think about how much to add to the ap flour. My wife said it was literally the only bag of flour in the store. She found it in the bottom of the organic section 2 rows over from normal flour spot. Bobs red mill iirc. Half seemed like too much so I figured 2.5 ww to 4 ap for my recipe.
deadwolfbones
Well-Known Member
Sourdough pain de mie --> kimchi grilled cheese w/ homemade kimchi, English coastal cheddar, miso butter
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2012
- Messages
- 2,418
- Reaction score
- 3,058
My mouth is watering and I really don't like you right now. Don't worry it's me.....ok no it's you, but I'll work through it.Sourdough pain de mie --> kimchi grilled cheese w/ homemade kimchi, English coastal cheddar, miso butter
deadwolfbones
Well-Known Member
Hey man, I can provide recipes if you like.My mouth is watering and I really don't like you right now. Don't worry it's me.....ok no it's you, but I'll work through it.
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2012
- Messages
- 2,418
- Reaction score
- 3,058
Yes please. Recipes are always welcome round these parts. Even my non kimchi loving wife said yum as I read your sandwich description.Hey man, I can provide recipes if you like.
deadwolfbones
Well-Known Member
So, for the bread itself, I followed this: https://www.theperfectloaf.com/pain-de-mie/
If you're not someone who keeps a sourdough starter, you can use this one instead: https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/a-smaller-pain-de-mie-recipe
(Note: Both of these use a 9x4x4 Pullman pan, but you can use a similarly sized bread pan or whatever.)
For the kimchi, we used this: https://www.maangchi.com/recipe/easy-kimchi
And for miso butter, just mix 3 parts softened butter with 2 parts miso paste until smooth!
For the sandwich itself I used English coastal cheddar from Costco, which isn't a great melting cheese but has great flavor. I also took the kimchi out of the jar and patted it dry with a couple paper towels, to keep the sandwich from getting wet.
Heat a cast iron pan over med-low heat, assemble the sandwich, butter one side, put it in the pan butter side down, and butter the other side that's now facing up. Cover, check it occasionally, flip when the first side is done to your liking. Cover again and repeat with the other side.
Et voila!
applescrap
Be the ball!
I don't eat kimchi but that looks amazing. That recipe is great. I love the additions of honey, milk and butter. Great pan too.
Haha Robert same, got the whole wheat, stone ground. Apparently everyone is a baker now, smh. Comes with a groovy picture of a guy named bob on it. I feel like i connected with bob. First use of whole wheat in a long time. We all really liked it. Used 3.5c white and 3c stone ground ww. Loaf didnt rise as much. Kind messed up my slashing tapping peal to get flour off. Should have brushed it off. Used lame razor blade in fingers. Lol it was starting to like stick in my fingers at the edges, yeowww. Funky flower was the effort.
Haha Robert same, got the whole wheat, stone ground. Apparently everyone is a baker now, smh. Comes with a groovy picture of a guy named bob on it. I feel like i connected with bob. First use of whole wheat in a long time. We all really liked it. Used 3.5c white and 3c stone ground ww. Loaf didnt rise as much. Kind messed up my slashing tapping peal to get flour off. Should have brushed it off. Used lame razor blade in fingers. Lol it was starting to like stick in my fingers at the edges, yeowww. Funky flower was the effort.
Oh my friend, I don't feel master of much! Just always trying for it, as I feel we all lean on the line of masters before us and I try to get closer and closer to feeling that sense.
Man, I'm jealous of your find on the stone-ground WW! Absolutely impossible to find any WW here, at all. In fact, most of the time, no flour, unless I'm just coming at the wrong times. Crazy. Good for you guys.
I've got two 50 lb. bags coming from Central Milling - their "Artisan Plus" and "Hi Pro Fine WW". I generally tend for lower protein white flours, which is odd here in the States but more common in France. It works better with their techniques (like multi-step levain builds, for one. Also, the particular type of chew is a bit different from ours), but this Artisan white looks amazing and as it's their best seller, I believe, I wanted to work with it. The Hi Pro Fine promises great 100%WW breads - I presume so fine the husks don't cut across gluten strands too much, which is why high-whole-grain loves tend to have less volume than lower % whole grain loaves (though the taste righteous).
I've also got a few 5 lb. bags of whole wheat coming from King Arthur. Expensive as hell when you consider shipping, but it's my go to for sifting out husks and "middlings" as it's coarser than say, Bob's Red Mill.
Aw well - I think we're all going to have to make adjustments on just about all foodstuffs for the foreseeable future. Not a bad thing!
Thanks again, just trying to make good bread like us all. Great thread. Your bread above looks great, btw. Nice scoring!
Edit: Hadn't read your text before posting. Yeah, Bob is a pretty cool guy. His life story is something to read. I think there's even a bio book out on him, IIRC. And the comment on loaf volume - yep, as I mention above, that's fairly typical with me, too, though I hydrate heavier and give plenty of long fermentation to compensate somewhat.
Last nights' levain (I said I work on one thing. Sorry for the repetition!):
Beautiful loaf, care to share your technique? I know it may be in here but I have been elsewhere lately but was there from the start.
Fed my starter just now andgoing to start another loaf in the morning and let it bulk ferment for a couple of days
Robert65
Major Obvious (recently promoted)
I like the scoring pattern! Though I'm unlikely to copy it. We all kind of develop our own habitual, signature scoring, it seems. (Mine, for wheat loaves, is usually a diamond pattern on round loaves, and a "sausage cut" on oblong. Rye loaves, I tend to use a docker. Sounds boring, doesn't it? I guess I'm more functional than decorative.)
Not boring at all - I actually do the same, except I tend to do chevrons on my oblongs/batards (or a single slash). I just saw this beautiful picture and liked the kind of pinwheel effect, which I'm clearly failing at so far. I hope everything I do is functional - just like to play with visual beauty as well. As a chef, nothing on the plate but what is meant to be eaten, and all.
The last two aren't mine, but I love the light wheat sheaf effect. The last boule is the model I'm trying to get. I tend to overcut so the cuts overlap, so need to make much smaller cuts.
Also, pretty cool video, using a wire and scores. Can't find the dang video, but I have a picture of it in mid-process. Will try to find the video. Pic:
Last edited:
Yep Chef, up top, no. 2435. The only things that might be different than usual is that I use a lower protein flour, Central Millings Beehive, which is 10.5%. I combine that with my extraction after passing King Arthur Whole Wheat through first a #30 sieve, then #50 sieve. That gives me about 87% extraction on the whole wheat. I combine this sieved whole wheat with the Beehive at 62:38 beehive:sieved whole wheat to get my best guess at a French "Type 80" flour, or "farine bise," seen to be a "midway" flour between white and whole wheat (T110 is also "bise," though more of the husk and germ is included. T150 is just whole wheat flour). Many like T65 or T70 for their base flour when making rustic breads, but I like it a bit darker, more coarse, more caramel-notes (though the caramelization, I think, comes more from my long fermentations, and taking the bakes right up to the edge of overdone).
Other than that, two levain builds of 8 hours each; lower temps and less levain inoculation for my more whole-grain breads, because they ferment faster and I do like the longer ferments (at room temp, not refrigerator retardation for these breads - which I like sweeter - though I do love it when making more American-style, sourer sourdoughs).
Finally, I do everything by hand. The wheat flour(s) and germ gets mixed with the water just until hydrated and sits (autolyses) for an hour, up to overnight. Usually, just the hour. Then the strengthening of the dough comes from folding only. Following Tartine's process, first two hours of the bulk ferment, every 1/2 hour; then once per hour till done. I tend to take the bulk ferment out longer, perhaps too long. With these parameters, I do about 4 1/2 hour before cutting/shaping/bench resting/molding.
One interesting tidbit: James Maguire, who translates Prof. Calvel's book from French to English, has a great article on Pain au Levain in the Winter, 2009 edition of the magazine The Art of Eating, pp. 26-29. Unlike the standard letterbox folds, he does a kind of fan folding, 8-10 overlapping folds to begin, then 5-6 as you progress through the bulk ferment. I don't yet know the reasoning, but it's interesting to me.
Oh, I use a stiff chef, or seed levain, to start. Actually, the levain builds are all fairly stiff, which is traditional for this style of bread. Interestingly, a stiff texture favors acetobacteria/acetic acid over lactic acid - flies in the face for the general French preference for milder lactic notes, eschewing the vinegary quality of the acetic acid breads of N.A. Personally I think it's traditional because the stiff levain tends to hold better, that's all. I don't get any quality I'd call acetic acid, because I don't retard these breads.
Trying to get used to working from home. I think once I get in a grove I should be able to work into my schedule bread, briskets, pork shoulders and all those other multi-hour tasks that I normally can't get done when not working at home!
My biweekly WW sandwich loaf
Cock Robin
Member
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2019
- Messages
- 9
- Reaction score
- 4
Anyone tried kveik for their sourdough starter?
Couple things, I think. First, Kveik is actually not wild yeasts and bacterias but rather a collection of [Norwegian in origin] strains of cultivated yeasts. It's not truly ambient, wild yeasts.
Secondly, no matter what you start with, you will end up eventually with a sourdough environment unique to you - the ambient flora, your maintenance regime, temps, thicknesses, ratios of inoculation, etc.
For sourdough, you really want to let the wild stuff sing, so while I think it would make for an interesting yeasted bread, I wouldn't call it sourdough.
applescrap
Be the ball!
The texture of that looks great. And an awesome rise. Your ww loafs always look great. Any thoughts on ratios of ww to white flour. Also was hoping you could lean me in the direction of a serviceable cutter form like yours. There are a lot of options not sure which work. Thanks.
Robert65
Major Obvious (recently promoted)
@applescrap, you don't need a form to slice bread. You get to perfectly sliced bread the same way you get to Carnegie Hall! Tip: once you line up and start the knife through the bread, let it do the work. Don't try to direct it, concentrate on sideways pressure to keep the side of the blade flat against the cut surface of the loaf while just moving it smoothly back and forth, sinking under its own weight. If the side of the blade is held against a flat surface, it will go straight. I know that sounds pretty abstract at first, but it will come to make sense.
applescrap
Be the ball!
Thanks for the tips. Not sure I ever thought about the flat blade side being a guide. No, I want a form though still, if not an electric slicer. Template, form, not sure what its called.
No white flour in this bread. I use 40% whole wheat, 40% "white" whole wheat, and 20% dark rye. The yeast (Fleischmans) is proofed with a bit of honey. I switched from olive oil to lard recently and like the softness of the crumb better. I will have to look for the records on the slicing tool to get the brand. It helps but is not perfect and it requires a rather long knife which cost as much as the slicer.
Cock Robin
Member
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2019
- Messages
- 9
- Reaction score
- 4
I have my own sourdough starter I use (mostly for pizza dough, tbh), I was just curious about kveik "sourdough". I'll have to mix some up was I would sourdough (flour, starter, water, salt). In wonder if a sponge would be necessary.
Cool. I was just saying kveik isn't sourdough, as it's made from cultured yeasts. It's a cultured strain, not a "sourdough" culture made from ambient yeasts and bacterias:
Sorry - just see the two posts are the same. Are you the same person as Cock Robin?
Cock Robin
Member
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2019
- Messages
- 9
- Reaction score
- 4
I was curious at Kevin's fast fermentation times - I wonder if it would break down the starches in flour unaided.
Cock Robin
Member
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2019
- Messages
- 9
- Reaction score
- 4
Yeah - sorry. I hadn't logged in when I initially replied and my autofill picked the wrong email. I've asked that the duplicate be deleted.
Oh no, no worries at all, just curious when I saw the two.
On the breakdown of starches, that's interesting. I'll have to look at Kevin's stuff to see more of what you're talking about. I think it's a cool idea, just on the face of it.
Cock Robin
Member
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2019
- Messages
- 9
- Reaction score
- 4
I just recall that when we brew we mash to convert starches to sugars. I'm not sure if the yeasty beasties can do that on their own. Adding sugar to the dough would of course solve that problem, but if the goal is a sourdough-like bread, adding sugar defeats the purpose.
They do - think of any bread. The yeast creates holes, which is CO2, and alcohol, which burns off. Yeast produces maltase, to break down maltose, and there are amylases in flour itself to break the starch down (just like wheat kernels or barley). Some of the sugars contribute to maillard reactions (sugar-protein complex) and caramelization (sugar), the nice browning and flavors of baked bread.
Don't quote me. I'm going on memory. I could be wrong and I'm sure there are other sugar processes I've forgotten. But those are a couple.
I think the major lifting is done my the things added to flour. Some of the pizza flour don't have it and that is why/how they can do the long ferments without it completely loosing it's structure. I know some yeast can convert starch but I don't think it is too common or normal for bread yeast. I had a diastaticus contamination which some can convert starches. That had me looking to see if I was polluting my beer from my sour dough starter. Had my starter tested and it came back negative for diastaticus.
Yeast has maltase, so it can convert to maltose. I think that it also has an invertase but I might be wrong, and that's in the flour. The flour has amylases for conversion as well. It also has proteolytic enzymes.
Not clear on what you're saying here, ba-brewer:
Holy cow, oven spring much man! Beautiful, and I like your poolish makeup, and the use of milk. Is this a particular style - e.g., N. Europe farmhouse tradition, etc.?
Very nice Hanglow, thanks for sharing.
