It’s been on my radar to make a sourdough starter too. Maybe in March after I return from my work trip and have time to feed it.
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It’s been on my radar to make a sourdough starter too. Maybe in March after I return from my work trip and have time to feed it.
applescrap
Be the ball!
Thanks so much Staestc and Robert. Appreciate all the sage wisdom and advice. Really appreciate the thoughtful biga post staestc. That plus Roberts experience is really helping me understand all this better. I dont use the terms, bulk, ferment or long much or near enough. Thats what I do. Long bulk ferments with moderate yeast and 2 to 4 hour bulk intial ferment. I think the less yeast longer ferments are good too.
So I pull this dough out to make the kids sandwiches this week and it has been 10 day or so. It was a wettish batch to begin with, but I thought this is like a biga?, no? I figured I could probably use it like a sponge. I think the book does offer ideas on mixing new batch in with a little of the old batch. Anyways made four boules from this wettish dough. 2 on steel two below.
So I pull this dough out to make the kids sandwiches this week and it has been 10 day or so. It was a wettish batch to begin with, but I thought this is like a biga?, no? I figured I could probably use it like a sponge. I think the book does offer ideas on mixing new batch in with a little of the old batch. Anyways made four boules from this wettish dough. 2 on steel two below.
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I followed the method on breadtopia for mine using pineapple juice instead of water for the first few days. According to the research here: https://breadtopia.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Pineapple-Juice-Solution.pdf having a low pH initially will eliminate the bacteria that can spoil attempts at creating a starter without appreciably affecting the yeast. When you get ready to give it a shot you may want to follow the method on breadtopia which you can find here https://breadtopia.com/make-your-own-sourdough-starter/. I'm certainly happy with the results.
It looks tasty! I would have worried about it being over fermented after 10 days, even at refridgerator temperatures, but it looks like it worked out okay. I've done cold ferments of pizza dough in bulk for a couple of days and the balled for another 3 days though, and had no issues and got wonderful results. The yeast in those recipes was a very tiny amount of IDY.
Thanks for the info! It should give me some reading material this week while flying.
Cool, and I feel your pain. I have traveled far to often for far too long. Good reading material is a must! Safe travels.
Robert65
Major Obvious (recently promoted)
I am a firm believer (supported by decades of experience) that using anything but plain flour and water, loosely covered to allow oxygen in but nothing else, to start a sourdough, will give, initially, rapid results that are comforting to the beginner, but will never lead to a strong and viable culture long term. The organisms to be fostered are present in the flour, and they need to just fight it out and establish a symbiotic population.
Rob, if I hear you right - flour and water only levain isn't viable over the long term? - my experience differs. I've had a starter going for well over 12 or so years that was extremely viable until we moved and it got frozen. I probably should have just refreshed back to health. This has been the same elsewhere, over my life in bread (started classical French cooking young - about 14 or so)
I do add a tad of whole grain in the mix - say a 100% hydration of flour - the flour itself is 95% white, 5% whole grain, usually rye. I do nurse it constantly - typically I get it raging, then do another ferment for a few hours and place in the refrigerator for no longer than 3 days. I bring it back with a day of 3 or so refreshers until I'm back to a tripling in 6 hours. Usually, I'm already starting to exhaust food and signs of pulling back are in place. 5 hours for 3-3.5X is typical.
I'm actually wanting to set up a starter-only cooler that I will keep no lower than 50F, to more or less maintain the balance of yeasts and bacteria.
On the other hand, I absolutely do not think it should be a religious thing. There's nothing big about starting up an entirely new levain and getting it going.
Robert65
Major Obvious (recently promoted)
I think you misunderstood, and we're in agreement. I think that using supplementary sources of yeast or sources of nutrients or acids in an attempt to speed up the process or favor certain organisms is not as successful in the long term. I think the culture needs to evolve organically on it's own. I only use flour and water to start my cultures. Sometimes I will use part or all whole grain, but I currently have one, that's been going strong and showing no signs of changing character for the better part of a decade, that I started with nothing but unbleached white flour and water. I think it's my favorite of all time, but then that's like choosing a favorite pet.
OK, gotcha. Sorry. I wondered if I misread you and obviously I did.
Like you, I'm a big believer in ambient conditions driving the show. I'm a French alpine cheesemaker, or was. My makes were very traditional, all the way to rennet I made from calf abomasum. To set up my cultures, rather than buying them, I set the environment to get them naturally - time and temperature, 20 generations usually, before it was stabilized and good to go. Cave itself was similarly set up for Abondance, though I also made tommes and reblochons. With the right ambient conditions, though unstable at first, the brine wash took off naturally.
Oh, speaking of levain, pain au levain, just came out.
beekeeperman
Well-Known Member
Agree totally, all you need is unbleached flour and water to make the best unadulterated sourdough starter.
It may take about a week at normal 70*F room temperature to culture it but it will keep making bread for as long as you
take care of it . Using it making bread every week is the best way to keep it productive. I've gone a couple weeks without issues.
Creating an environment by lowering the initial pH that favors the yeasts from the whole grain or rye flour decreases the number of failures people have when first creating a starter. You switch to water after the second feeding, and I switched to unbleached AP flour then as well. It certainly is viable after the 4 or 5 weeks I have been maintaining it, and I would guess the pH is currently the same as it would have been had I not started it with the pineapple juice. The end results are the same, but you are more likely to obtain them.
OnePlate
Yeast are my housepets
I started a new sourdough culture a few days ago with a little bit of orange juice to pre-acidify and tossed in some Weyermann Barke pilsner malt to hopefully get some interesting bugs from it. It took off surprisingly quick and after the first day it smelled like a Berliner Weisse, lol. It's starting to mellow out now and smell more like a really great sourdough. Will be interesting to see where it ends up in time.
applescrap
Be the ball!
I ran out of bread for work and made this instead of rolls. Its good. I think I like this sliced bread better than rolls for lunch. Problem-the slicing. I need something like that form beermanpete have contemplated using my electric slicer but I wonder if that is only for meat.
Kickass
Well-Known Member
My wife and I got a sourdough starter going from scratch. This weekends recipe (our second go at bread making) was rye sourdough. I substituted the water with Young’s Double Chocolate Stout
Attachments
Well it looks Amazing! How was it?
Kickass
Well-Known Member
Both were great. The young’s came out more pronounced than we expected, which was not a bad thing.
As far as the regular rye, I think we’ll up the rye percentage next time. I’m not sure we got a good impression of the flavor it lends. We used it at about 30%, all purpose flour and bread flour made up about 35% each.
As far as the regular rye, I think we’ll up the rye percentage next time. I’m not sure we got a good impression of the flavor it lends. We used it at about 30%, all purpose flour and bread flour made up about 35% each.
Beautiful breads, kickass. Looks delish.
I was intrigued by your use of the Young's. I would have thought the alcohol would strip some of the beasties from the mix. It would be a cool microbiological thing to see its effect.
If there are any other new bread makers like I am, I received this from the Amazon folks yesterday
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QJF56X8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I am very pleased at the quality and can't believe the price! I was just looking at lames, and came across this set for less than most lames cost. I'll get some pictures of what I received tonight.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QJF56X8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I am very pleased at the quality and can't believe the price! I was just looking at lames, and came across this set for less than most lames cost. I'll get some pictures of what I received tonight.
Yesterday I decided to try making a sour dough starter. Hopefully I can give it a go at making some sourdough bread in the near future.
applescrap
Be the ball!
I have been wanting the danish(?) hook. Nice deal.
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Robert65
Major Obvious (recently promoted)
If you want to upgrade from that cute, artisanal looking, but actually very difficult to use properly and not at all versatile or well thought out lame, these professional ones are excellent, also quite cheap on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00G9FEUR4?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GT8DWES?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share
They have very well designed, ergonomic handles that ensure the proper angle of the blade (35° for the curved, 90° for the straight
you'll naturally and comfortably hold it correctly. You want the curved blade for scoring baguettes, and the straight blade for all round, oval, and oblong loaves. If you have to have just one, make it the straight blade. With practice, it can also be effectively used for scoring baguettes. You'll do yourself a huge favor by learning proper techniques with the proper tools from the start.
ericbw
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That’s a great price!
ericbw
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If you want to upgrade from that cute, artisanal looking, but actually very difficult to use properly and not at all versatile or well thought out lame, these professional ones are excellent, also quite cheap on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00G9FEUR4?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GT8DWES?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share
They have very well designed, ergonomic handles that ensure the proper angle of the blade (35° for the curved, 90° for the straight
You'll do yourself a huge favor by learning proper techniques with the proper tools from the start.
I really like the Mure and Peyrot lames, although they are cheap plastic. The fixed blade version is basically a huge piece of plastic to throw out when it gets dull.
But the one pictured in the Amazon set is also fine. I’ve used a utility knife, a serrated knife, scissors, etc. They all work.
Robert65
Major Obvious (recently promoted)
The ones I linked aren't actually disposable, both take replacement blades. And they're sturdier than you might expect. What is really hard to find is a well designed straight blade lame, and I do like the M & P. Lots of good curved ones are available, but I rarely do baguette style scoring. Though as you note, for many of these applications a serrated bread knife can serve well; Alton Brown would surely applaud it as a non-unitasker.
I just now thought of this, but I actually have an old straight razor somewhere. It's an antique so probably quite dull, but if I can sharpen it it might well be serviceable as a lame. At least would be worth a try just for the fun of it
applescrap
Be the ball!
Atk found a box cutter and regular razor blade work iirc. Cant remember its slang name. The winner from that test cant remeber it was 10$ iirc. I hate cheap tools, but if they do the job, that can sway me. I trust staestc opinion so I might give that set a go. More likely will get the americas test kitchen winner or the plastic one that robert posted. Seems more handy for intricate work.
Well I think sourdough starter is not doing so well. I found some mold (fuzzy grey spores) 2-3 spots growing on the side of the mason jar. Today was only the fifth day... I may have to start over again.
ericbw
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Yes, if it’s fuzzy, throw it out. [emoji53]
Tossed it this morning. I’ll start a new one tomorrow or Monday hopefully. Probably Monday seeing how tonight is going.
applescrap
Be the ball!
Found it, it is the breadtopia lame. Why not just hold the blade I am wondering. Also I have an exacto knife set I have never used?!
Update, bought the deal from staestc. Wanted whisk and form so figure lame is bonus, it seems usable and I could replace it later. Pretty stoked really, seems like these tools are usable and 20 is sweet.
Update, bought the deal from staestc. Wanted whisk and form so figure lame is bonus, it seems usable and I could replace it later. Pretty stoked really, seems like these tools are usable and 20 is sweet.
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applescrap
Be the ball!
Boules for lunch
I'm a firm believer in starting with an acidic liquid like unsweetend pineapple juice instead of water as described here https://breadtopia.com/make-your-own-sourdough-starter/. You may want to give that a try.
EDIT: I don't actually start or maintain my starter as described at that link. I just realized it. The link is valuable because the page has a link to the pdf that describes why pineapple juice helps. But I do everything by weight in a 1 quart mason jars.
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Xacto should work. At least worth a try. I have tons of them around. A long style blade, like a number 11 should do the job pretty well. I have single edged razor blades too, like you get at the paint stores for cleaning crap off of glass that should work. None will be as convienient, but hey, if you got stuff around you might as well give it a try! lol
applescrap
Be the ball!
My dough is a wet dough. Can I still use the banneton? I know rice flour has been reccomended parchment?
Whole wheat sandwich loaf.
I'm no expert, but it is my understanding that a banneton and even a couche is actually for high hydration doughs. They help the dough hold it's shape while proofing instead of spreading out into a blob like high hydration doughs are prone to do, but I'm sure somebody with more experience than I will weigh in.
applescrap
Be the ball!
Yes, I see that the sourdoughs are like 70 plus percent hydration. I dont think mine is like that but after a week or so in fridge, become similar. Do I work flour in while shaping, not really sure where or how to start, I think Ill just have to flour the banneton well and hope for the best.
Can't help. Have never actually used mine yet!
