Getting better at achieving open crumb of my sourdough with stout beer instead of water 
Homemade Bread Thread
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applescrap
Be the ball!
Well after that ramble last night was craving cinnamon bread. Split a bucket, made half cinnamon bread, half c rolls. Couldnt stop eating both all day. Then made another batch. Made my rolls for lunch next week and made another batch. The kids are stoked a pbj on the cinnamon bread is super good. Tried to flatten the rolls to make more bun like, they could be bigger.
Baked some bread yesterday for the first time. Crusty Italian Sandwich Rolls. Overnight biga. Sandwiches were awesome
Continuing the quest for open crumb in my beer breads
I’m calling it focaccia.
Spent grain bread. I make a double batch and usually bake two sandwich loaves, but the pans weren’t handy.
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Whole wheat sandwich bread.
hotwatermusic
Well-Known Member
A sourdough loaf.
...and a question, does anyone feed their starter and immediately put it back in the fridge? I heard of people doing this and tried it with this loaf but it sure was sluggish. I feel like the starter coming out of the fridge was still roughly half unfermented dough and probably didn't have enough bugs per it's weight. My starter has gotten to be too active for its container so I was looking for a way to keep it from jumping out of its glass home.
...and a question, does anyone feed their starter and immediately put it back in the fridge? I heard of people doing this and tried it with this loaf but it sure was sluggish. I feel like the starter coming out of the fridge was still roughly half unfermented dough and probably didn't have enough bugs per it's weight. My starter has gotten to be too active for its container so I was looking for a way to keep it from jumping out of its glass home.
applescrap
Be the ball!
Made these 4 boules for the kids lunches. Iirc I covered them at some point with foil. My wife says they make good sized sandwiches vs the rolls. I am happy way less work then the rolls.
Robert65
Major Obvious (recently promoted)
When I'm not baking a lot, I feed my sourdough and put it right back in the fridge. This way I can go a couple of weeks between feedings, during which time it will slowly fully rise and start to fall. But I'll always take it out and give one feeding at room temperature before making my starter for the bread. That's plenty to get it back up to speed.
Robert65
Major Obvious (recently promoted)
While I'm here... English style white loaf this week. That is, differs from baguette dough only in having minuscule amounts of butter and sugar. Superb for toast and sandwiches.
I do the same as what Robert does. I will allow the starter to sit at room temp for 6 or 8 hours before feed. If the first feeding is slow I will give it a second or third feeding before using if it seems slow. Normally if it is only a week or two one feeding is enough, but mine has gone months in the fridge and that takes a few feeding to get back to normal.
edit: you can keep a smaller starter and build like you do yeast. I keep about 100gm in a pint glass.
beekeeperman
Well-Known Member
beekeeperman
Well-Known Member
Yup, feed it and put it in the fridge within an hour usually. Like to see a few bubbles first.
10 years this year with the same starter, keep it in a ceramic bean crock.
10 years this year with the same starter, keep it in a ceramic bean crock.
Been hooked on all the bread you folks are turning out, and buoyed by my success a couple of weeks ago with the Italian sandwich rolls I made, so I picked up a used book. It was cheap and looks a little ragged on the outside, but it appears to have never been opened on the inside!!
Boilinginsc
Consumer of beer and spirits
The King Arthur website has directions on making, feeding, and keeping the starter. They also have recipes to use the starter you remove to feed it if you use their method.
beekeeperman
Well-Known Member
How sour or tangy does everyone like their sourdough breads ? The more time it ferments the tangier it gets .
Been going two or three rises before hitting the loaf pan, sometime overnight
in the fridge depending on time of day it gets started.
The more fermented it is the easier the wheat is to digest for people who may have problems with store bought
and active dry yeast breads.
Most of my breads started in the morning end up in the oven early evening.
Been going two or three rises before hitting the loaf pan, sometime overnight
in the fridge depending on time of day it gets started.
The more fermented it is the easier the wheat is to digest for people who may have problems with store bought
and active dry yeast breads.
Most of my breads started in the morning end up in the oven early evening.
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Love this book!
Bolillos
Baked Italian Rolls again yesterday for Italian roast beef sandwiches and they were delicious!
Working on a new technique (for me), "fermentation lente" or extremely slow bulk ferment, by lower temps and very low levain seeding.
-1% chef/levain
-1.3% salt only
-20C
-16 hours chef development, stiff levain, followed by 20 hours of the bulk ferment.
I really like the results. There is a really rich complexity of flavor, and given the time, temp, and low seeding ratio, the acetic and phytic acids are nicely reduced - there's almost a touch of "round" sweetness. I don't make very sour sourdoughs, preferring the French palate for a milder sourness, if any at all.
Anyway, interesting technique.
-1% chef/levain
-1.3% salt only
-20C
-16 hours chef development, stiff levain, followed by 20 hours of the bulk ferment.
I really like the results. There is a really rich complexity of flavor, and given the time, temp, and low seeding ratio, the acetic and phytic acids are nicely reduced - there's almost a touch of "round" sweetness. I don't make very sour sourdoughs, preferring the French palate for a milder sourness, if any at all.
Anyway, interesting technique.
Robert65
Major Obvious (recently promoted)
I find it interesting that the acetic acid is reduced. (I too favor mild sourdough breads, in the French, or central European rye, mold.) In my experience, reducing the % of levain in the final build often increases the perceived level of acetic sourness, I have presumed because of a lengthier fermentation necessitated by the also reduced yeast population. Do you think there is a certain threshold below which the % of levain must be reduced? Is this essentially recapitulating the original development of the culture, where in the early days a milder character may prevail (though with limited leavening capacity in that case)?
applescrap
Be the ball!
Those are nice looking. How did you bake them? Also I love the shape.
You know, it's a great question Rob, and I don't have an answer. A lot of it is counterintuitive, right? Low seeding ratio, stiff levain, modest hydration (forgot to mention, 65%). I've seen more of a description of phytic acid path, but have not found anything yet that would explain the acetic reduction.
I will say that one thing cool (no pun) to me is that this isn't retardation by cooling, just a lower point of the normal temp range. One thought from this is that yeasts are at a comparative advantage, and so it might just be a nexus of breakdown products and this comparably stronger yeast development curve. 20 hours at 70F is a long time, and I suspect it's something here in terms of yeast dominance.
The only other thing that comes to mind is that my levains are kept at full tilt virtually continuously - I refresh at tripling-3.5X, which for me now is about 5 hours. I maintain a stiff and liquid wheat, and a liquid rye (rye of course, much quicker). So right off the bat, the chef itself is low in acetic, but that wouldn't explain anything as to the main ferment.
That's a bit like sourdough pizza, which typically has less than 10% levain, often only 2%-3% .
I found with my sourdough , which is a mild yoghurty tasting one, that I can't really get much of a difference in taste from it no matter the change in % used or temperature of ferment. I'm sure there are subtle differences
As an aside, this is the best dough/fermentation calculator I've used to date which I use for pizza but could well be adapted to bread of course, although pizza is typically mixed and fermented a bit less. Also has a mixed yeast/sourdough option . Could be handy for anyone wanting to try different temperatures times etc
https://calbal.altervista.org/
I found with my sourdough , which is a mild yoghurty tasting one, that I can't really get much of a difference in taste from it no matter the change in % used or temperature of ferment. I'm sure there are subtle differences
As an aside, this is the best dough/fermentation calculator I've used to date which I use for pizza but could well be adapted to bread of course, although pizza is typically mixed and fermented a bit less. Also has a mixed yeast/sourdough option . Could be handy for anyone wanting to try different temperatures times etc
https://calbal.altervista.org/
Thanks. This is a 3 hour room temp biga with an overnight cold ferment, then on baking day finish the dough and bulk ferment for 2-3 hours at room temp, then shape and proof again for an hour or two before egg wash, scoring, then baking. Baked on a parchment paper lined sheet pan at 450 F with a second pan in the bottom of the oven for water to create steam. Shaping is just by hand. Got better tension built up this time when shaping than I did for my previous attempt. These are perfectly sized for sandwiches.
I have those same racks
applescrap
Be the ball!
Awesome, thanks. Sent me on a nice mission, biga. So cool where you are taking your bread making. Did it have a ciabatta texture? Have heard the term biga, poolish, sponge, had to find out more.
It almost sounds like a no knead recipe. Anyone ever compare a no knead and biga? I suspect the biga gathers some flavor with age like my bucket.
It almost sounds like a no knead recipe. Anyone ever compare a no knead and biga? I suspect the biga gathers some flavor with age like my bucket.
Barm is another one. Look up Peter Reinhart, if you haven't already. I'm afraid I'm too much the francophile and prefer levain, but cool traditions in all these.
Robert65
Major Obvious (recently promoted)
Although Peter Reinhart and friends have lately (and inexplicably) appropriated it to refer to a sourdough culture, "barm" is actually the native English word for Kräusen, the foamy head of yeast on top of fermenting beer. Brewers have, throughout history, skimmed their excess yeast and sold it to bakers; hence, all of our baker's yeast is still simply S. cerevisiae. This symbiosis between brewer and baker is worth noting in the context of this forum. Nonetheless, barm is not a levain culture, but quite the opposite, it is baker's yeast. Another interesting thing to note about the trade in yeast between brewers and bakers is that it was a feature of the economy towns, of course. This sheds light on the antiquity of the distinction between yeasted "city" breads, like the baguette, and sourdough "country" breads, which dichotomy is often imagined to be a product of the industrial age. We may think of sourdough breads as being more traditional and yeast breads as modern, but they really have stood side by side all along.
Beautiful, thanks Robert, I stand corrected. The term is actually new to me, as I've only recently picked up a copy of the Baker's Apprentice (tbh, the approach just doesn't resonate with me). I appreciate the correction and the lore.
Edit: wish we had the ability to give more than 1 "like." I love culinary lore and history - e.g., Waverly Root's The Food of France and The Food of Italy. Restorative manna, and your post is in that vein.
Biga is just another name for a preferment technique, as are levain, poolish, sponge, etc.
In a nutshell you make part of your dough first, let it ferment, then mix that in when you make the rest of recipe. The rationale is that the yeast get going and multiplying and developing flavors, then that kicks off in your final dough. I do not understand what this is better than just a long bulk ferment of all the dough at once. I just followed the recipe.
The part you make first (for the preferment) may be very high hydration or not. In this case it's only about 50% hydration for the biga. And it's only about 50% hydration for the final dough (which includes the biga). So, no, this recipe is neither no knead or ciabatta like in texture. It results in a fairly fine crumb like the picture below. For a ciabatta like open texture you are talking about a very high hydration dough, like 75-80%.
Here's the recipe if you are interested.
Crusty Italian Sandwich Rolls
Ingredients
For the starter or biga
- 2 1/2 cups 320 grams unbleached all-purpose flour
- 1/2 teaspoon instant yeast
- 3/4 to 1 cup warm water about 100-105 F
- 2 1/2 cups 320 grams unbleached all-purpose flour
- 2 teaspoon kosher salt or sea salt
- 1 Tablespoon sugar
- 1 teaspoon instant yeast
- 1 Tablespoon olive oil
- 3/4 to 1 cup warm water 100-105 F
- Semolina flour or cornmeal for dusting
- 1 egg beaten with 1 Tablespoon water for egg wash
- 1 cup hot water for steam pan
- To make the starter or biga, combine the flour and yeast in a medium bowl, slowly add the 3/4 cup water. Mix until a rough dough forms. If needed, add up to 1 cup of water. Transfer the dough to a lightly-floured surface and knead for a few minutes until it becomes smooth. Place the dough in a lightly oiled bowl, turn to coat, then cover and let stand at room temperature for about 3 hours.
- Transfer to the refrigerator and let it chill overnight. In the morning, remove the biga from the refrigerator and let it stand at room temperature at least 1 hour before proceeding.
- Mix the flour, salt, sugar and yeast thoroughly in a large mixing bowl.
- Cut the biga into small pieces (10-12) and add them in, then, finally the 3/4 cup of the water with the 1 Tablespoon olive oil. Stir together until a dough starts to form. Knead on low with your stand mixer dough hook. Continue to knead the dough for about 5 to 7 minutes -- until a soft dough forms. If needed, add in some of the remaining water a little at a time. The dough should be smooth and elastic -- just barely sticky.
- Place the dough in a lightly oiled bowl, turning once to coat, and cover. Let rise until doubled, about 2 hours.
- Remove the dough to a lightly-floured surface. Cut it in 2 being careful not to deflate too much. Cut each piece into 3 equal parts. Shape each piece into a torpedo.
- Place the shaped dough on a parchment covered making sheet that was sprinkled with cornmeal or semolina. Spray the shaped rolls lightly with oil, then tent lightly with plastic wrap to rise until they are puffy and almost doubled, about 1 hour.
- Lightly brush each roll with egg wash then score the rolls with a sharp knife or lamé either on the diagonal or down the middle.
- Place a metal baking pan on the lower rack of the oven for use as a steam pan and preheat the oven to 450 F/220 C. When the oven is preheated pour hot water into the metal baking pan and transfer the roll pan to the oven. Bake about 17-20 minutes, until the tops are a golden brown and the internal temperature measures 190 F.
- Transfer to a wire rack to cool.
The originally recipe I started with was supposedly adapted from Peter Reinhart's recipe in The Bread Baker's Apprentice, but I have not gotten that far in the book yet to verify how close it is to that recipe.
Robert65
Major Obvious (recently promoted)
Ther are a couple of reasons preferments are used.
A quick, wet "sponge" was widely used (especially by home bakers) when commercially produced yeast was of dubious quality, and it served to wake up the yeast in the favorable warm, wet environment before tasking it with the job of fermenting the whole batch. Yeast today is more reliable.
Other yeasted preferments (biga, pate fermenter, etc.) were adopted by commercial bakers to try to elicit some of the qualities of a long bulk fermentation while speeding up production to meet industrial needs.
These yeasted preferments must of course be distinguished from sourdoughs.
After most of a lifetime of devotion to various preferments, I've come around to realize I actually prefer the breads produced by, and the casual pace of, simple, hand mixed, long fermented, yeast breads. Several folds and a 4 hour or so bulk ferment works wonders.
Good info. Thanks for that.
It seems to me that for the Italian rolls I posted the recipe for, mixing all the dough at once, giving it a 3 hour bulk ferment at room temp, cold fermenting overnight, letting it warm up on the counter a bit, dividing and forming and letting it proof on the pan before baking, would produce about the same result. Guess I should give that I try and see for myself!
I meant to add this as well. I have never done sourdough before, but I have created what appears and smells to be a very healthy starter. Will probably try this next with a simple sourdough recipe!
That's a good looking starter.
Thanks. I'm pretty pleased, but have yet to cook with it. I fed it this morning and took this show about 3 hours later. I found a basic sourdough bolle recipe I'm going to have a go at.
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