Homebrew Taste

[JoeSchmoe]

I have a question about homebrew taste that I'm not sure has been asked before.

My homebrew tastes just a little different that professional beer. I'm not going to say it's bad or off, but it's just different (possibly better). When I taste the dry malts, I can 100% taste that "different" flavour in there. I'm not sure how to describe it, but it's almost like the malt is slightly fruity or just maltier compared to store bought beer.

Is this a known thing? Do professional brewers use the same malts as homebrewers? If so, why do they taste slightly different... Maybe less expressive than home brew.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Assuming you are BIAB'ing normal and imperial strength ales, what are you doing for water adjustments?

 

[worlddivides]

Yes, professional brewers use the same malts as homebrewers. The main difference is that professional brewers have access to more malts than homebrewers and can get them fresher than homebrewers. Also, professional brewers can actually go to a maltster and taste the malts individually and choose what they want or go to a hop farm and individual check different hops and pick what they want, which obviously homebrewers cannot do. However, professional brewers will use Briess, Great Western, Crisp, Simpson's, Weyermann, Ireks, and so on just like homebrewers. And both homebrewers and professional brewers can buy from hop farms like Yakima Valley Hops. That said, I don't think the kinds of hops or malts available to homebrewers compared to professional brewers is going to be responsible for a significant difference in taste.

Ideally, "professional beer" and homebrew should taste the same. I personally find "the homebrew taste" to be a negative thing, but there's no specific definition for what it is. Using stale liquid malt extract could produce one kind of "homebrew taste." Fermenting Chico yeast at too warm of a temperature could create another kind of "homebrew taste." Simply not getting rid of the chlorine and chloramines in your water could create another "homebrew taste."

Back when I first started brewing, I remember a homebrew gathering outside of a homebrew store and some of the homebrewers' beers I tasted had some taste that tasted very much like "homebrew," while others had an amazingly professional high-quality taste. And I think it mainly came down to process and not as much down to ingredients.

 

[JoeSchmoe]

Assuming you are BIAB'ing normal and imperial strength ales, what are you doing for water adjustments?

I'm just using tap water and a tiny amount of potassium metabisulfate. Here's a water content test from my area.

https://www.niagararegion.ca/living/water/water-quality-reports/grimsby/default.aspx

Again, I'm happy with the final product and don't taste any off flavours. I'm saying my beer tastes exactly like the malt tastes and it's just slightly different than professional beer.

 

[dmtaylor]

It *might* be a pH thing. Get a pH meter (if you don't already have one), calibrate it frequently, and make sure your mash pH is close to 5.5 (ideally), or in a range of 5.2 to 5.6.

If the mash pH is greater than about 5.7, the finished beer will tend to taste more grainy, but you can fix this by adding a few drops of acid to the mash and stir it in -- any acid will work but the most common ones are phosphoric or lactic acid. Then measure pH again until it is 5.6 or lower.

If the mash pH is lower than about 5.1, the finished beer might turn out tangy, but again you can adjust the pH by adding baking soda a tiny amount at a time, like 1/4 teaspoon, and no more than 1/2 teaspoon, assuming about 5 or 6 gallons of beer, stirred in well. Then measure pH again until it is at least 5.3 if not 5.4 (better).

When adding acid or baking soda for pH adjustment, you don't want to overdo it. Use tiny amounts at a time.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I'm just using tap water and a tiny amount of potassium metabisulfate. Here's a water content test from my area.

Thanks.

That information may help focus additional responses.

 

[Miraculix]

The type of home brew taste that I experienced with my own brews was always rooted in oxidation issues. Hot side was a bit complicated to solve, basically SMB was the big thing that was missing. Also minimise stirring when heated. Cold side oxidation was mitigated by bottle conditioning and minimising head space. Also, using freshly crushed malt made a big difference.

 

[dmtaylor]

P.S. I forgot to mention... mash efficiency can suffer also if pH is wildly out of range. You might find you get improved efficiency by shooting for the mid-5's for mash pH.

(All of these pH's assume measurement at room temperature. If dunking anything into the hot mash itself, all numbers will be about 0.2 lower based on physical chemistry -- don't question it, just accept it as truth because it is.)

 

[dmtaylor]

The type of home brew taste that I experienced with my own brews was always rooted in oxidation issues. Hot side was a bit complicated to solve, basically SMB was the big thing that was missing. Also minimise stirring when heated. Cold side oxidation was mitigated by bottle conditioning and minimising head space. Also, using freshly crushed malt made a big difference.

Oxidation is certainly a big deal, and is another very plausible explanation. I've suffered from oxidation issues for decades. Recently my beers improved by paying much closer attention to this.

 

[JoeSchmoe]

Again, when I taste the dry malt grain, I think to myself it tastes like how my beer tastes... But it doesn't taste like any store-bought I've tried. I'm a complete novice here, but logically I don't think it's oxidation since no new taste/flavours/smells are being introduced.

Based on dmtaylor's advice, I could see how a non-ideal pH could affect my beer's ability to change the taste of the grain into being more like store beer. I still very much enjoy the taste though, so I'm not seeing it so much as a problem so much as a curiosity.

 

[DonT]

I would recommend reading up on off-flavors in beer. See if you can discern exactly what you're tasting....

 

[wdavis2003]

I have a theory that I'm going to start to play around with. We all know there's hydrostatic pressure created by the sheer volume of liquid in a large commercial fermenter.. I'm going to try to mimic that in my Fermzilla. I don't know how much pressure I need to add but maybe AI can figure it out for me
I'm assuming it's a lot less than the 12 to 15 PSI I normally pressure ferment at. But it could be more.

Other than that, I think PH is important. Water chemistry as well. A good commercial brewery always goes into the fermenter at target PH. And of course, limiting oxygen exposure is also a top priority for a commercial brewery. They have tools that measure oxygen in the beer when canning or bottling.

 

[JoeSchmoe]

I would recommend reading up on off-flavors in beer. See if you can discern exactly what you're tasting....

I've read some off-flavour articles, and haven't found anything that sticks out. So much so when I read about canned corn or popcorn taste, I can comprehend what it would taste like in beer.

Last night when I was munching on some grains while waiting for my strike water to heat, I thought this has the exact flavour of my beer... But for some reason, this same flavour is unrecognizable in store-bought beer. It was Munich and Pale-Ale base malt that I was sampling.

 

[dmtaylor]

The more I think about this... almost sounds like unmashed grain-water, like you steeped some grain in cold water and then tasted that?! This might sound strange to have to ask, but, are you milling the malt, then adding the water and keeping at around 150 F (65 C) for an hour to convert the starches to sugars? Apologies as I'm sure you understand the concept of mashing but you are new here so I just can't help but check to be sure.

 

[JoeSchmoe]

Last night I heated the strike water to 163F. Then I added my grains which brought the temp down to 156F. I stirred the grains every 15min. By the end of the hour the temp was down to 154F.

Previous mashes followed the same route, but I was usually starting a few degrees lower. This will be a lighter ABV beer so I'm trying for a bit more body. I had a slight efficiency improvement over previous batches and got to 1.045 OG as opposed to the 1.040 I was expecting.

 

[fluketamer]

The more I think about this... almost sounds like unmashed grain-water, like you steeped some grain in cold water and then tasted that?! This might sound strange to have to ask, but, are you milling the malt, then adding the water and keeping at around 150 F (65 C) for an hour to convert the starches to sugars? Apologies as I'm sure you understand the concept of mashing but you are new here so I just can't help but check to be sure.

you beat me too it it sounds like unmashed grain.

also back to the original post. what commercial beers are you comparing your homebrew to.

macrobreweries pasteurize there beer and generally have a s-ton of adjuncts in them that diminish the malt flavor.

and it definately makes a difference in taste.

i can taste much more malt in micro beers then in bmc beers

what commercial beers are you basing this comparison on.

 

[MaxStout]

Another angle to throw at OP: could this be a case of taste perception? Perhaps some confirmation bias, knowing that you're drinking homebrew and not commercial brew? Maybe a case of palate fatigue? The mind plays tricks.

Invite some friends over and do a blind taste test. Your beer vs. a similar commercial beer. See if they notice a difference, and what their preferences are.

 

[JoeSchmoe]

you beat me too it it sounds like unmashed grain.

also back to the original post. what commercial beers are you comparing your homebrew to.

macrobreweries pasteurize there beer and generally have a s-ton of adjuncts in them that diminish the malt flavor.

and it definately makes a difference in taste.

i can taste much more malt in micro beers then in bmc beers

what commercial beers are you basing this comparison on.

Mostly comparing to Ontario based craft breweries. GLB (Great Lakes Brewery) out of Toronto would probably be my favourite.

 

[JoeSchmoe]

Another angle to throw at OP: could this be a case of taste perception? Perhaps some confirmation bias, knowing that you're drinking homebrew and not commercial brew? Maybe a case of palate fatigue? The mind plays tricks.

Invite some friends over and do a blind taste test. Your beer vs. a similar commercial beer. See if they notice a difference, and what their preferences are.

Good idea! Thanks. Maybe you're right on the confirmation bias thing.

 

[fluketamer]

i think its in yoru process. i didnt go back and read through all the posts again but did you give details on your brewing and fermenting process from start to packaging. that may help pinpoint .

 

[Miraculix]

Again, when I taste the dry malt grain, I think to myself it tastes like how my beer tastes... But it doesn't taste like any store-bought I've tried. I'm a complete novice here, but logically I don't think it's oxidation since no new taste/flavours/smells are being introduced.

Based on dmtaylor's advice, I could see how a non-ideal pH could affect my beer's ability to change the taste of the grain into being more like store beer. I still very much enjoy the taste though, so I'm not seeing it so much as a problem so much as a curiosity.

Store beer is usually quite old. If you are tasting fresh malt flavours, it could be actually a good thing.

 

[Miraculix]

Another angle to throw at OP: could this be a case of taste perception? Perhaps some confirmation bias, knowing that you're drinking homebrew and not commercial brew? Maybe a case of palate fatigue? The mind plays tricks.

Invite some friends over and do a blind taste test. Your beer vs. a similar commercial beer. See if they notice a difference, and what their preferences are.

That's the way to go!
Blind tests are so brutally revealing. It's unbelievable how little we can actually trust our own.

 

[Broken Crow]

My homebrew tastes just a little different that professional beer

^ That part right there. Looking at your other posts, you're doing well but have some way to go....Once again: Patience...but in this context, not just for fermentation and conditioning, but for the evolution of your own senses; Whether Freudian or not, you just lumped all mainsteam brews (which while bland and unremarkable IMO but still distinct from one another) and a dizzying assortment of craftbrewers, each of which wether Erie Street Brewing Co, Mill Street, GLB, Niagra Brewing...I've had them all and each has very unique atributes, but here's the thing: The more you work with the ingredients; malts, hops, yeasts, water chemistry, the more difference you'll discern the difference between every brew. Based on this question I think you're on a good path, but exercise patience young padawan: ask yourself this question 12 months and many brews from now and if you don't already know the answer then, then revist this thread. In the meantime continue as you are, learning each element as you go.

 

[worlddivides]

Again, I'm happy with the final product and don't taste any off flavours. I'm saying my beer tastes exactly like the malt tastes and it's just slightly different than professional beer.

I'm personally curious about this because I've never tasted commercial beer or homebrew (whether by me or by other homebrewers) that tastes "exactly like malt tastes." And even if that's just hyperbole, tasting the grains just gives me a general idea of how the beer will taste. It never actually has that same flavor. You've mentioned in several posts in this thread that the finished beer tastes like the raw malt, but could you explain what you mean by that? If it's something you've never tasted in a commercial beer before, it's either a pretty uncommon flaw or, as Broken Crow and MaxStout have suggested, it might be a kind of confirmation bias?

 

[AmarikinBrew]

How long did you age the beer before you tasted this?

 

[JoeSchmoe]

How long did you age the beer before you tasted this?

Three batches so far. All have peaked at around 3 weeks, but all were good after 2.

As I said, I detect no off flavours in any of them whatsoever and enjoyed them all very much (especially my last 2). It's just that they taste closer in resemblance to the dry malt than store bought beers. I'm not really complaining... I'm just curious if anyone else has noticed the same.

That's my batch 2 beer (aka Adirondack Pale Ale) I drank while boiling up batch 4. Sadly it was the last of the batch.

 

[corncob]

Consider crushing some malt, carefully separating husk from kernel, and eating a handful of each separately.

My money is on tannins. The taste of husks is not bad in and of itself, but it's considered a flaw in beer and can't be readily found in commercial examples.

 

[hottpeper13]

What's you're FG? Mashing at 156* is gonna make a very malty beer! Try mashing at 148* for 90-120 min and compare.

 

[JoeSchmoe]

What's you're FG? Mashing at 156* is gonna make a very malty beer! Try mashing at 148* for 90-120 min and compare.

My other three beers I mashed in the 152F ballpark. The FG's ranged from 1.006 to 1.010.

I'm aiming for a lighter beer this time but wanted to keep some body so I mashed higher. Initially I wanted a 4.0% ABV but I had better efficiency than past batches and will likely be higher depending on where the US 05 takes it.

 

[sibelman]

my beer tastes exactly like the malt tastes and it's just slightly different than professional beer.

you just lumped all mainsteam brews (which while bland and unremarkable IMO but still distinct from one another) and a dizzying assortment of craftbrewers

Of course, professional (commercially available) beers vary widely from one another. Your homebrewed beers will differ from one another somewhat, even when you use the same recipe. So it's really just guesswork for others to identify what you're experiencing as "exactly like the malt tastes." Apparently, there's a flavor component that you're detecting in your malt and your beer, that you don't detect in commercial brews.

Historically, the phrase "homebrew taste" has been a negative term sweeping in a variety of flavors, especially those caused by oxidation, indicating process flaws. You're liking the taste you've asked about, so that's a good thing. Many new brewers quit because they don't like what they've made, but you've been successful! (Note: some folks enjoy flavors that others consider to be flaws.)

Perhaps as your brewing experience grows, and as you try brewing a variety of beer styles, you'll be able to better identify the particular flavor experience you've asked about.

Happy brewing, @JoeSchmoe

 

[Whisky River]

It’s hard to speculate on what someone else might be tasting but I kind of remember the classic Homebrew taste from the 90’s as being a kind of an oxidized musty/dusty kind of taste that might not be that different from what you smell when you take a big whiff of a container of grain.
Maybe it’s just classic Homebrew taste that we used to get from poor oxygen control and lack of fermentation temperature control.
I also can’t help but wonder if the commercial breweries use of centrifuges and filters is part of why their beer tastes a little different to OP.

 

[Bobby_M]

Chewing on dry malted grains would be described as "husky" or "grainy" in my opinion. If your beer tastes like that at all, it's likely due to a high mash pH where some of the compounds in the grain husks are being liberated into the water.

 

[JoeSchmoe]

It's the inside of the grain I taste. The slightly bitter husk flavour isn't transferring into the beer.

 

[Bobby_M]

The inside of the grain would be starch. I'm not sure how you can differentiate whether you're tasting husks or starch when you're chewing on both.

Everything above is true unless you're talking about crystal malts.

Can you be more specific about the types of grain you've used/chewed?

 

[JoeSchmoe]

My grains are pre-crushed at the LHBS (albeit very coarsely). If I grab a big pinch, I get both husk and the inner core, but if I pick out the inner part without the husk, I get an unmistakable flavour. As I noted, I tried this with 2-row pale malt and Munich.

 

[Willy]

Water - Grains - Yeast - Hops

Water is the main ingredient. A cheap improvement? Use an RV filters. Takes out a bunch of stuff. Saw u are already using metabisulphate - good. But you won't need it if you get a decent RO system. Starting from scratch (clean, low PPM of dissolved solids) and adding minerals based on style/recipe is more controlled and 'pro'. Yes... Absolutely, as mentioned above. pH is critical and needs to be measured and corrected and controlled. Key.

Grains - as fresh as possible. Milled as late as possible. I now go to Carolina Malt House and get 3-6 months full of grains. I mill the grains within 30 minutes before mash in. Makes a huge difference in richness of malty flavors. Big difference.

Yeast and how it is handled is huge. Many different types, some have their own flavor which can be great or not so great to yuck depending on the palette. Experiment using standards like US-05 or Nottingham for ales, 34/70 for lagers. Expand your taste palette to other yeasts and see where your sweet spot is - which means, what you like. Optimal Ferment temps ranges are not just suggestions. Stay in the range. And pitch a little warmer than the range to help with yeast reproduction.

Hops - fresh buds, pellets or oils... Just the right amount of bittering is key, as is a hop stand or dry hop to add more aroma and/or bittering (depends, many variables.).

Best to get software to track what you did. Take notes. Make the same recipe. Get better. A/B results - what is better?

Making beer is like an Italian grandmother making marinara sauce. They are genius and masters of the process and the spices. When to add, how long, adjust this and that. Never forget this ... It is science and an art. Both matter.

Wishing you well on the beer journey.

 

[Bobby_M]

My grains are pre-crushed at the LHBS (albeit very coarsely). If I grab a big pinch, I get both husk and the inner core, but if I pick out the inner part without the husk, I get an unmistakable flavour. As I noted, I tried this with 2-row pale malt and Munich.

Ok, the interior of 2 row pale and Munich, prior to mashing, is primarily starch. In a finished beer, I'd describe it as grainy, doughy. If you're hitting the expected OG, I wouldn't worry about unconverted starch.

There is a strong possibility of mash pH lifting grainy flavors if it's a light colored beer. Less so as the beer gets darker.

 

[JoeSchmoe]

Ok, the interior of 2 row pale and Munich, prior to mashing, is primarily starch. In a finished beer, I'd describe it as grainy, doughy. If you're hitting the expected OG, I wouldn't worry about unconverted starch.

There is a strong possibility of mash pH lifting grainy flavors if it's a light colored beer. Less so as the beer gets darker.

To me, I feel like the inside of the malt tastes more subtly earthy-sweet, maybe with a distant hint of fruitiness (?). I don't really get a starchy flavour like I would from flour or corn starch.