High ABV Brew, adding sugar

[matt23]

Hi,

I'm contemplating brewing a 20-25% ABV brew, it seems there are couple options for doing so.

Option 1, all grain: This would be making a beer that's normally about 8-9% but would boil down about half of it to get to 15-18%. From this, use a barley wine yeast that'll handle the higher abv fermentation, and when about 70% done, slowly add in enough sugar to bump it up another 5-7%, I believe this is called sequential sugar dosing.

Option 2, grain & sugar: Basically the same as #1 but instead of boiling down half of the initial wort, slowly add in enough sugar to hit about the same OG for that initial 15-18% range.

With the main question being, what effect does adding more sugar have on the ending taste and flavor?

I mean, it's already going to be super malty so I wouldn't think it'd be that big of deal but as I haven't done anything to this extreme, wondering if I'm missing something. I'm thinking a high IBU will help, something in the 40-60 range.

Appreciate any feedback, planning on brewing this in the next couple weeks.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Option 3, freeze concentration (e.g. eisbier): Freeze and remove ice crystals.

Option 4, Español.

 

[Jako]

Hi,

I'm contemplating brewing a 20-25% ABV brew, it seems there are couple options for doing so.

Option 1, all grain: This would be making a beer that's normally about 8-9% but would boil down about half of it to get to 15-18%. From this, use a barley wine yeast that'll handle the higher abv fermentation, and when about 70% done, slowly add in enough sugar to bump it up another 5-7%, I believe this is called sequential sugar dosing.

Option 2, grain & sugar: Basically the same as #1 but instead of boiling down half of the initial wort, slowly add in enough sugar to hit about the same OG for that initial 15-18% range.



With the main question being, what effect does adding more sugar have on the ending taste and flavor?

I mean, it's already going to be super malty so I wouldn't think it'd be that big of deal but as I haven't done anything to this extreme, wondering if I'm missing something. I'm thinking a high IBU will help, something in the 40-60 range.

Appreciate any feedback, planning on brewing this in the next couple weeks.

adding in enough sugar for another 5-7% would thin the beer out a bunch it would be very hard and unless you have a super super big batch of yeast and tons of staggered yeast nutrition it don't think the yeast will handle it very well. i don't know of any yeast strains that can ferment that high without lots of work to keep the yeast active and healthy.

IBU would need to be into the 100s if you plan to mask some ABV.

I don't think it will be that malty the yeast will strip the beer and ferment it down till its wine like.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I don't think it will be that malty the yeast will strip the beer and ferment it down till its wine like.

Have you ever had a barleywine?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I'm contemplating brewing a 20-25% ABV brew, it seems there are couple options for doing so.

These may be of interest (and they are free):

• https://byo.com/article/21-alcohol-all-grain-beer/
  
• http://beerandwinejournal.com/feeding-1/ (1st of three parts)

Adding DME rather than sugar is an option (example: Microbrewed Adventures' clone recipe for Sam Adams Triple Bock).

IIRC, Zymurgy and BYO Magazine have also done articles on really big beers.

 

[FatDragon]

WLP-099 is the only yeast I know that would purportedly be able to handle such a high ABV. You'll probably want an enormous starter.

I'd definitely max out the IBUs at 100+. Then I'd probably go with option A. You'll definitely want to find a way to pitch your big-ass starter while it's active without diluting your wort too much or introducing too much oxidized starter beer.

I've read threads from at least one other guy who did this a few years back. Maybe someone who sees this will be able to find it to share and help you research before you get started.

 

[Jako]

Have you ever had a barleywine?

yeah but but a 25% barleywine? i think not.

 

[Steveruch]

WLP-099 is the only yeast I know that would purportedly be able to handle such a high ABV. You'll probably want an enormous starter.

I'd definitely max out the IBUs at 100+. Then I'd probably go with option A. You'll definitely want to find a way to pitch your big-ass starter while it's active without diluting your wort too much or introducing too much oxidized starter beer.

Instead of a big-ass starter brew a normal strength beer and use the yeast cake.

 

[Jako]

Instead of a big-ass starter brew a normal strength beer and use the yeast cake.

That's not a bad idea.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Interesting...I have had a few 15% and above beers. Sometimes they taste okay and sometimes they taste like gasoline. Have you brewed some beers in the 12% to 15% range to get an understanding of the process? Fermentation temp control is very important with big beers.

Alcohol itself adds body and sweetness...so I would discount the advice that adding sugar will make a beer thin...that is just people repeating false information.

 

[Vale71]

Very high ABV beers are usually fermented with more than one yeast strain and adding copious amounts of refined sugars is practically a must unless you want to brew something that tastes like syrup.

The typical staggered fermentation profile would look something like this.

- brew an all-malt wort and pitch it with an alcohol tolerant beer yeast. Ideally this should be able to get you to around 15% ABV
- when the beer is fully attenuated add an extremely alcohol tolerant wine yeast
- immediately start making one or more sugar additions to keep the wine yeast happily fermenting until target ABV is reached

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Option 3, freeze concentration (e.g. eisbier): Freeze and remove ice crystals.

This. Brewdog have a couple of recipes listed using the technique
https://brewdogrecipes.com/recipes/tactical-nuclear-penguin
https://brewdogrecipes.com/recipes/hop-shot

They do an ever higher alcohol one at 41% (sink the Bismarck), but it needs a commercial freezer! And an even higher one again at 55% (The end of History) that needs -70C!

 

[Vale71]

Those are eisbocks, technically they're cold-distilled beers and should be considered spirits and not beers.
I've been playing with the thought of trying to make one by running cold glycol coninuously through the cooling coil of my Unitank and letting ice accrete. I would then transfer the distilled beer to a keg leaving the water ice behind.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Those are eisbocks, technically they're cold-distilled beers and should be considered spirits and not beers.

I'm about 90% sure from reading previously that in both Australia (where I am) and the U.S, freeze distillation of beer is legal up to a certain percentage, and is still classed as beer. I'm not sure what that percentage is though - I'm sure it would be lower than 55%!

 

[Vale71]

I'm well aware they're legally considered beer in most countries, my remark was that technically they shouldn't be as without additional (distillation) equipment those levels of alcohol cannot be reached.

 

[Mer-man]

One could feed it rice-based maltose syrup instead of simple sugar

 

[Miraculix]

As sugar is about 50% fructose which might lead to unwanted flavour, I would go for dextrose (glucose, corn sugar) instead. Or maybe invert sugar syrup which might in addition add some specific flavour.

Also, in the higher abv range, you want to comfort the yeasties as much as possible to keep them active for as long as possible and glucose is basically the easiest to digest sugar there is for our one celled friends.

 

[renrutle]

WLP099 may work well for this project. It can ferment to >25% AVB if managed right. However, you may lose the malty notes you want to keep.

https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-bank/wlp099-super-high-gravity-ale-yeast

To keep the malty characteristics you are looking for I think eisbock is the way to go. HBT also has several threads on making applejack (freeze concentrated applewine) that contain some good tips on the freezing/draining process.

Bottle carbonating probably won't work as the yeast will have quit be then. Kegging is the way to go.

BrewDog made some high ABV beers through ice distillation. Their recipes are all grain and may provide some inspiration.

https://brewdogrecipes.com/recipes/tactical-nuclear-penguin
https://brewdogrecipes.com/recipes/sink-the-bismarck

 

[Jako]

you guys are overthinking this since the OP hasn't responded to any of our ideas.

 

[RPh_Guy]

As sugar is about 50% fructose which might lead to unwanted flavour, I would go for dextrose (glucose, corn sugar) instead. Or maybe invert sugar syrup which might in addition add some specific flavour.

FYI invert sugar is also 50% fructose.

Yeast produce invertase, which turns sucrose into "invert sugar" (dextrose + fructose) without needing any help from us.

you guys are overthinking this since the OP hasn't responded to any of our ideas.

You must be new here.

 

[Jako]

FYI invert sugar is also 50% fructose.

Yeast produce invertase, which turns sucrose into "invert sugar" (dextrose + fructose) without needing any help from us.


You must be new here.

no just being Mr obvious.

 

[Miraculix]

FYI invert sugar is also 50% fructose.

Yeast produce invertase, which turns sucrose into "invert sugar" (dextrose + fructose) without needing any help from us.


You must be new here.

You are right, the fact that inverted sugar is inverted is completely irrelevant. I mentioned it because during the process of creation it is also caramelised and other stuff happens as well which gives it a specific taste. It is a well used ingredient within British brewing tradition for this very reason, instead of plain sugar.

I remember reading somewhere that the fructose content is actually lower than 50%, but that might be just my brain mixing things up.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

A sucrose molecule is a glucose and fructose unit linked. Glucose and fructose are isomers - both are C6H12O6, and therefore have the same mass. Therefore the percentage of each in sucrose must be 50%. Unless I'm missing something?

 

[CascadesBrewer]

you guys are overthinking this since the OP hasn't responded to any of our ideas.

The guy's last 3 "posts" have been new threads that he did not respond to...with the most recent one being being in July 2018...ironically titled "Making an NA beer, how to confirm ABV?".

 

[RPh_Guy]

I only mentioned that because I was just confused why you'd say fructose may add undesirable flavors and then suggest adding a sugar which has the same amount of fructose.

I know there's a whole debate about whether fructose does add undesirable flavors but I don't want to get into that.

 

[Jako]

The guy's last 3 "posts" have been new threads that he did not respond to...with the most recent one being being in July 2018...ironically titled "Making an NA beer, how to confirm ABV?".

"Making an NA beer, how to confirm ABV?" hah what? guess he decided 25% ABV was the way to go.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Alcohol itself adds body and sweetness...so I would discount the advice that adding sugar will make a beer thin...that is just people repeating false information.

Adding sugar doesn't make a beer thin. Replacing some of the malt in an existing recipe with sugar makes it drier and less rich (more 'digestible' as the Belgians say). I use some simple sugar (normally dextrose) in many of my recipes to make them more drinkable - they certainly aren't 'thin' or watery!

 

[Jako]

Adding sugar doesn't make a beer thin. Replacing some of the malt in an existing recipe with sugar makes it drier and less rich (more 'digestible' as the Belgians say). I use some simple sugar (normally dextrose) in many of my recipes to make them more drinkable - they certainly aren't 'thin' or watery!

good to know. i guess i am mixing up body with how dry the beer could be. thank you for the information.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

good to know. i guess i am mixing up body with how dry the beer could be. thank you for the information.

I think you were right with what you were saying, but instead of 'adding' 5 to 7% sugar to 'thin' the beer out, you could say 'replace' 5 to 7% of the malt with sugar to 'dry' the beer out (just my opinion anyway - there's probably no technical definition of thin). To my tastes, thin beer comes from breaking down too many of the body forming proteins (too long in the 120F to 140F range). Personally, if I was trying for a 25% beer (which I wouldn't) I'd be looking more towards 20% sugar, which is what I typically use in Belgian strong ales.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Adding sugar doesn't make a beer thin. Replacing some of the malt in an existing recipe with sugar makes it drier and less rich (more 'digestible' as the Belgians say). I use some simple sugar (normally dextrose) in many of my recipes to make them more drinkable - they certainly aren't 'thin' or watery!

Have you done some side by side tests to test this out? I personally don't believe there is that much difference in the character you get from a light malt (like pilsner and pale ale malt) vs sugar (in say a 10% swap). Sure a beer with light grains and sugar will be more 'digestible' than a beer loaded with Crystal/Chocolate/Oats/etc.

I have an experiment Porter on tap right now where I boosted one half with 10% sugar, and it clearly has more body that the one without. One Brulosophy experiment does not equal fact, but they found that swapping base malt with sugar was not a significant impact: http://brulosophy.com/2018/12/24/su...ar-added-during-the-boil-exbeeriment-results/

This article is several years old, but a solid read on the factors that influence the mouthfeel of beer: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1993.tb01143.x

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Have you done some side by side tests to test this out?

Not side-by-side, but I have brewed recipes with and without sugar replacing some of the malt and have noticed a marked difference. They are both at 20% sugar though -
1. Belgian Golden Strong ale - My first attempt was all malt, which turned out a bit rich and sweet. Using 20% dextrose on the next three gave a nice dry finish - much more to style. Interestingly, the 20% dextrose also has more yeast character.
2. Australian lagers - many, many batches with and without sugar. My 'premium' version is all malt (also with a bit more hop character); standard/draught version is 20% dextrose. The 'premium' version is noticeably richer (the standard version isn't 'thin' or 'weak' though, just a bit milder in flavour). Note that typical cheap Aussie lagers reportedly use up to 30% sugar.

I often use 10% invert syrup in English Bitters, but have also brewed several with all malt. I think there's enough of a difference there that it would be picked up, but haven't used the same recipe for each to really tell. I'll try a side-by-side next time I brew one.