Help with off flavor in hoppy homebrews

[BrodieBruce]

Hi everyone, I'm looking for some assistance in identifying the source of an off flavor I have in some of my homebrews. I can't determine the best way to describe this flavor either unfortunately but there is also an "off" aroma associated with it. The best descriptor I can think of is to call it sweet/alcoholic. I have only identified this in my heavily hopped and dry hopped beers, beers I've made with fewer than about 3-4 ounces of hops taste great. Here are the details for my recent IPA that gave me this flavor:

I use St. Louis City tap water. Added 4 grams of gypsum to mash and sparge water. The city uses chloramine and up until now I have never used campden tablets or tried to treat the chloramine, mostly because I was ignorant to its presence.

14 lbs 2 row
0.75 lbs carapils
0.5 lbs carastan
0.75 lbs corn sugar (added at flame out)

Mashed at 150 for 1 hour, used a single batch sparge. Boiled for 90 minutes.

0.5 oz Amarillo FWH
10 ml hopshot 90 mins
1 oz columbus 45 min
1 oz simcoe 20 min
1.5 oz centennial 0 min with 20 min hop stand
2.5 oz simcoe 0 min with 20 min hop stand

Pitched 2L starter of wlp001, temp kept between 66 and 68 F

OG was 1.072. FG 1.006 after 10 days. Hydrometer sample tasted very good.

Dry hop additions with loose pellets into primary.
10 day dry hop with 1.5 oz columbus, 1 oz centennial, 1 oz simcoe
5 day dry hop with 0.5 oz columbus, 0.5 oz simcoe, 0.5 oz amarillo, 0.5 oz centennial
I dry hopped for a total of 10 days with the 2 dry hop additions overlapping for 5 of those days.

Bottled with 3.9 oz corn sugar. The beers were bottled just over 2 weeks ago and are now carbonated.

Summary:
Did not treat my tap water for chloramine. Hydrometer sample pre-dry hop tasted great. Added 5.5 oz dry hops for 10 days total. Beer now has distinct off flavor and aroma that is difficult to describe but has been present in prior hoppy beers. Is it possible that the hops are interacting with the chloramine in my tap water? Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

 

[FastAndy]

Hmm. Not sure that it is a chloramine issue since it isn't present until after the dry hop. 1072 down to .006 is a decently big beer, are you sure it Isn't just alcohol you taste? Does the flavor fade with time?

 

[BrodieBruce]

Hmm. Not sure that it is a chloramine issue since it isn't present until after the dry hop. 1072 down to .006 is a decently big beer, are you sure it Isn't just alcohol you taste? Does the flavor fade with time?

In past examples of this beer with this flavor it has not faded with time. I'm holding out hope that this time it will. I'm pretty sure it's not just the alcohol because like you said it seemed to taste good before the dry hop. I'm drinking one right now and while not undrinkable there is definitely an issue. 10 days too long of a dry hop maybe?

 

[FastAndy]

I would think 10 days is the high end of OK for a dry hop. If it was too long you'd taste more grassy/vegetal flavors.

 

[BrodieBruce]

I would think 10 days is the high end of OK for a dry hop. If it was too long you'd taste more grassy/vegetal flavors.

Yeah that's what I've heard. The problem I am having is I am a moron when it comes to detecting and describing the flavors in my beers. Maybe it is grassy, I don't know, I've never tasted grass, haha. All I know is I was going for a dry beer with lots of hop flavor and aroma and now the thing that stands out is the strange taste and aroma.

 

[heckler73]

I wish we could ban the use of the term "off flavours". It does nothing to describe anything more than "I don't like the taste or smell", which is purely subjective.


What the heck is an "on flavour"?

 

[FastAndy]

I wish we could ban the use of the term "off flavours". It does nothing to describe anything more than "I don't like the taste or smell", which is purely subjective.


What the heck is an "on flavour"?

Disagree. It's an easy way to categorize flavors that don't belong. As the op has stated, he has a difficult time naming the exact off flavor he is tasting. Maybe you could help him instead of belittling his terminology.

 

[BrodieBruce]

I wish we could ban the use of the term "off flavours". It does nothing to describe anything more than "I don't like the taste or smell", which is purely subjective.


What the heck is an "on flavour"?

I know I'm not being very helpful with my descriptions because it is difficult for me to do but I'm hoping that someone has had a similar issue or has some potentially helpful insight for me. To me, an "off flavor" is something that I did not intend to be in the finished product. If that is confusing I apologize but I presume most people understand what I mean, in a general sense.

 

[BrodieBruce]

Disagree. It's an easy way to categorize flavors that don't belong. As the op has stated, he has a difficult time naming the exact off flavor he is tasting. Maybe you could help him instead of belittling his terminology.

Thank you, at least your response makes me feel like I'm not nuts.

 

[duboman]

Chlorine or chloramines would produce a plastic like/band aid smell and taste and does not age out

A lot of hops with a long dry hop time might produce grassy like flavors, think fresh cut lawn smell, usually will fade with time

Some hops might not be agreeing with you, I know citra is a favorite of many but for me, if used in abundance gives me the sense of cat piss

Maybe someone else can try your beer and offer up some closer descriptors or perhaps you can look at the attached link for some help:http://www.beerjudgeschool.com/uploads/Beer_Characteristics_Flash_Cards.pdf


Sent from the Commune

 

[flars]

Brew the exact same recipe including the hop schedule, but use bottled spring water. The hops may be camouflaging some of the typical off taste produced by chloramines in the water.

 

[BrodieBruce]

Brew the exact same recipe including the hop schedule, but use bottled spring water. The hops may be camouflaging some of the typical off taste produced by chloramines in the water.

That's a good idea, I think I'll give it a shot.

And thanks for the flavor guide duboman

 

[langdonk1]

Try dry hopping all your hops at once. Put them all in the primary after the beer has finished to your desired FG. Let them sit for 3 days. Then put your carboy in the fridge to cold crash it for another 2 days. This will allow for all hop matter to fall and help clear your beer. That's 5 days total hop contact. More than enough time. And I agree with flars. Buy gallon bottles of "purified water" 99cents a gallon. Cheap and worth it. Just add PH 5.2 stabilizer in strike water and your beer will be delicious. Your hops sound amazing too! Good luck! Cheers.

 

[BrodieBruce]

Try dry hopping all your hops at once. Put them all in the primary after the beer has finished to your desired FG. Let them sit for 3 days. Then put your carboy in the fridge to cold crash it for another 2 days. This will allow for all hop matter to fall and help clear your beer. That's 5 days total hop contact. More than enough time. And I agree with flars. Buy gallon bottles of "purified water" 99cents a gallon. Cheap and worth it. Just add PH 5.2 stabilizer in strike water and your beer will be delicious. Your hops sound amazing too! Good luck! Cheers.

Yeah I think I'm going to try a shorter dry hop time.

Also, is it a problem if large amounts of hop debris from the boil end up in my fermenter? If so, what type of flavor might that lead to? Grassy like prolonged dry hopping?

 

[Foosier]

+1 on trying another batch with removed chloramines. Either use campden tabs or bottled water from the store. However, the conventional wisdom is that 5.2 Stabilizer is a waste of money. Check out the brew science forum stickies for info on water adjustments. There may be something else you are missing there which could be accentuating the maltiness and downplaying your hops flavors.

 

[herc1354]

So to aid in your education of brewing in regards to detecting flavors....think of what cut crass smells like, can you detect that flavor...a taste similar to what something smells like is in most cases a flavor, our nose and tongue senses are connected.

Flavors will be muted and changed by what you recently ate, drank. Smokers tend to have muted/changed taste and smell as well, I should know as I was once a smoker, smoking a cigarette or cigar will completely change the taste of a very good beer, wine etc...

Cold your off flavor, and yes I feel the use "off flavor" is a very good descriptor, be a fermentation issue or yeast even?


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[TimmyWit]

+1 for using RO water. There is no telling what is in your city water. By adding gypsum to the mash without regard to what is already in your water, you're further altering mash PH. I had some bad batches with an off flavor that was difficult to describe. None of the common off flavor descriptions suited what I was tasting. As soon as I switched my water source, the problems went away. Some of mine tasted fine out of the hydrometer as well. It could be that the carbonation is accentuating the off flavors you are getting.

You mentioned that you only have this problem with really hoppy beers. Are you only adding the gypsum to the hoppy beers with the intent of accentuating the hops? You described the flavor as "sweet", right? If that's the case, your mash PH being off makes a lot of sense because it means that there were some conversion problems.

 

[langdonk1]

Yeah I think I'm going to try a shorter dry hop time.

Also, is it a problem if large amounts of hop debris from the boil end up in my fermenter? If so, what type of flavor might that lead to? Grassy like prolonged dry hopping?

Absolutely do not leave the hop particles in the fermenter. That's probably where the flavor is coming from. You should make a hop spider so you could catch as much particles as possible.

 

[DarthCitra]

I agree with everyone regarding the dry hop thats way too long and about your water profile has a huge impact on the final product. The alcohol taste you describe can be from too warm of fermentation, you said 68 was your high end but was that ambient? i ask because it will be quite a few degrees warmer in the fermenter.

 

[JonM]

Only two weeks in the bottle? They're just green. My IPAs change pretty dramatically over the course of a month or more in the bottle. Maybe you're just tasting them too early.

Another possibility - you have too much of a good thing. That is, you like hops, but you just used too much for your liking. I counted 12 oz of high AA hops, plus a hop shot. That's a lot of hops.

 

[DarthCitra]

Only two weeks in the bottle? They're just green. My IPAs change pretty dramatically over the course of a month or more in the bottle. Maybe you're just tasting them too early.

Another possibility - you have too much of a good thing. That is, you like hops, but you just used too much for your liking. I counted 12 oz of high AA hops, plus a hop shot. That's a lot of hops.

Aren't IPA's generally supposed to be drank asap since the hop flavor will start to degrade with time? I always drink mine two weeks after bottling and have never had this mysterious "green" flavor.

 

[FourSeasonAngler]

Only two weeks in the bottle? They're just green. My IPAs change pretty dramatically over the course of a month or more in the bottle. Maybe you're just tasting them too early.

Another possibility - you have too much of a good thing. That is, you like hops, but you just used too much for your liking. I counted 12 oz of high AA hops, plus a hop shot. That's a lot of hops.

THIS + the fact that you went from 1072 to 1006. You're tasting over-hopped green beer with alcohol + fusel alcohol notes.

If you're throwing in 10ml of hop shot at the boil start, all of your remaining additions should be at flameout or in the whirlpool to get the flavor & aroma to compliment the high IBU hop shot addition.

I also agree that a 10 dry dry hop is a bit much, anything more than a week is not worth the time.

 

[BrodieBruce]

Thanks for the replies everyone! I've got some nice ideas for steps to try to improve my IPA's in the future.

I'm actually starting to wonder if maybe I don't like simcoe hops... The most notable examples of this strange flavor have come when large quantities of simcoe were used. I haven't ever had this taste from a commercial beer that uses simcoe though.

 

[langdonk1]

Simcoe is awesome when used properly. Read other recipes and gain knowledge about certain techniques. Then make it your own

 

[BrodieBruce]

The beer has been in bottles for a month and the flavor is not changing. I'm also realizing that this beer is much darker than I expected, perhaps even getting darker as time goes on. Should the dark color clue me in to a particular part of my process that should be addressed?


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[CUrchin]

My wife hates Simcoe, thinks it tastes like cat pee. I didn't read the whole thread, but you could be on to something there.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[BrodieBruce]

Any further thoughts on the beer turning out much darker than expected? I'm thinking this is a water issue, I'm going to make essentially the same beer with 100% distilled water with mineral additions based on Bru'n water recommendations and I hope it will turn out better.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Yooper]

Any further thoughts on the beer turning out much darker than expected? I'm thinking this is a water issue, I'm going to make essentially the same beer with 100% distilled water with mineral additions based on Bru'n water recommendations and I hope it will turn out better.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

Getting darker usually means oxidation (which gets worse with time), but this beer was dark right at the start, correct?

 

[BrodieBruce]

Getting darker usually means oxidation (which gets worse with time), but this beer was dark right at the start, correct?

It was darker than expected in the first bottle I tried but it does seem to be getting even darker. I don't really know how it would have become oxidized, I did open the bucket to add the dry hops but that was it. I dry hopped in primary, the only transfer was to bottling bucket. I guess it is possible that it was oxidized during that transfer but it had an off flavor even at the time of bottling.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Calichusetts]

Probably a combination of yeast, fermentation and water profile. I too have had some issues lately with a strange off-flavor that is not really detracting but detectable. My buddy started calling it my "house profile." I don't love it but don't mind it. It fits into none of the classic off-flavor categories and I just want to identify the cause.

I've tried a few different yeasts with similar results, though chico has had the most signs of it. Never really changed up from spring water and tried several fermentation changes so maybe some RO is instore for me.