Help in pinpointing this off-flavor

[kanzimonson]

What I think I might do is leave it uncovered until I get it below 160 or so, then put the lid on it.

I really don't think this is the source of your problem. If you reeeeeeally think it's DMS, then you should try a 90min boil and see if that fixes it. If the flavor persists, then it's almost certainly not DMS.

 

[HossTheGreat]

I'm not necessarily sure why it happened, but I made a 'helles' years ago, using RODI water with no mineral additions. This was before I understood brewing water chemistry. The beer came out incredibly grainy/starchy. All pils malt. The beer never cleared, and was thin and insipid. So, the pH was obviously too high (pretty sure I wasn't adding lactic back then) and there was NO Ca. So one or both of these made the beer grainy. It had a kolsch-y graininess that I've detected in several microbrewed versions of kolsch, only more so. BTW I don't really like kolsch (that I've had anyway).

Don't trust 5.2 to do what it says it is supposed to do.

Ok thanks. I've never taken a ph reading before so maybe I'll pick up some test strips and try it on my next batch.

 

[HossTheGreat]

I really don't think this is the source of your problem. If you reeeeeeally think it's DMS, then you should try a 90min boil and see if that fixes it. If the flavor persists, then it's almost certainly not DMS.

Yeah, it was just a thought. I know someone on here described a possible DMS issue as stale corn chips or stale fritos. I guess my flavor could be interpreted in that way. However, the first thought that comes to mind to me is still raw grain. I will try the no lid method on the next batch, along with voile to see if it improves. I also plan on taking a ph measurement in my next brew to see where that is.

 

[HossTheGreat]

OK, so here's an update. Sorry, as it is a bit long.

Since my last post I have brewed 3 beers. An extract IPA, an AG Mild, and just this past Saturday an AG version of Biermuncher's centennial blonde. The IPA and Mild turned out fantastic. Absolutely no hint of off-flavors what so ever.

Before brewing the Blonde on Saturday, I made several tweaks to my process.

1. I used a voile bag which has a much finder weave than the previous bag that I was using. This should eliminate any grain escaping the bag and ending up in the boil.

2. I sent a water sample off to Ward, which came back with the following:

pH 7.6
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est 82
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.14
Cations / Anions, me/L 0.7 / 0.7

ppm
Sodium, Na 4
Potassium, K 2
Calcium, Ca 7
Magnesium, Mg 1
Total Hardness, CaCO3 22
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 4
Chloride, Cl 6
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 15
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 13

Per these results, I followed the instructions on the water primer sticky in the Brew Science forum. I used 1 gram of Calcium Chloride per gallon of water. Since I started with 8.5 gallons of water, I used 8.5 grams. I also added 2% acidulated malt to my grain bill.

3. After flameout, I left the lid off of the kettle until reaching below 160 degrees.

By doing these 3 things, I hoped to have eliminated any off flavors due to 1. Tannin Extraction from grain in the boil, 2. out of whack pH or low calcium, 3. DMS caused by lid on the kettle while wort is still near boiling temps.

I used an identical recipe to Biermuncher's, with the addition of the acidulated malt. I mashed at 150 degrees for an hour, raised the temp to approx 168 for mash out for 10 min, then pulled the bag. I then boiled for an hour. My OG ended up at 1.037. I pitched the yeast (decanted starter of Wyeast 1056) at 65 degrees and fermented at 66. Within hours of pitching the yeast, fermentation began. Today the krausen had dropped completely, so I took a gravity reading. It finished right at 1.009.

I took a taste of the sample and Bam! The first thing that hit me was the raw grainy flavor. Now, I know it's still young and it may drop out some but based on my previous issues with this flavor I'm not too optimistic. I'm going to let it sit in the primary for a couple of weeks, transfer to a corny, then will either force carb or prime. Hopefully the flavor drops out. I enjoy lighter style beers, especially in the summer and really would like to brew a nice clean one for once. This is just frustrating.

 

[D_Struct]

I am currently struggling with the same issues with my lighter beers.

It seems to fade with time, but it never truly seems to go away.

I am starting to suspect pH issues with the mash and the sparge, as I am usually pretty vigilant with my temps, and I never put the lid on post boil (until it's cooled).

 

[pvtschultz]

I'm going to vote for DMS.

I made a couple lighter cream ales, one of which had a terrible "grainy" taste. Everyone perceives tastes differently, but that was the best description that I could come up with. I thought it was the corn in the recipe. I did another batch with a 90 minute boil, that reduced it. I recently got a new stove with a more powerful burner (40% more so) and whala, the taste went away. You mentioned that you don't do vigorous boils. I would start with a vigorous boil, as high as you can get if using a regular stove and adjust for 90 minutes. You should be able to boil off the DMS precursors during the boil to prevent formation of DMS during the cool down. My last few batches have been no chill w/o perceivable DMS even. A 5 gallon batch full volume boil (I also do full volume BiaB with a triple crush at the local NB) really pushes the limits of standard natural gas burners IMO. I'm switching to outside propane Cajun burners this summer for this very reason.

 

[HossTheGreat]

I'm going to vote for DMS.

I made a couple lighter cream ales, one of which had a terrible "grainy" taste. Everyone perceives tastes differently, but that was the best description that I could come up with. I thought it was the corn in the recipe. I did another batch with a 90 minute boil, that reduced it. I recently got a new stove with a more powerful burner (40% more so) and whala, the taste went away. You mentioned that you don't do vigorous boils. I would start with a vigorous boil, as high as you can get if using a regular stove and adjust for 90 minutes. You should be able to boil off the DMS precursors during the boil to prevent formation of DMS during the cool down. My last few batches have been no chill w/o perceivable DMS even. A 5 gallon batch full volume boil (I also do full volume BiaB with a triple crush at the local NB) really pushes the limits of standard natural gas burners IMO. I'm switching to outside propane Cajun burners this summer for this very reason.

Currently I'm using a 5500 watt heating element and while I don't boil to the point where it's nearly splashing out of the pot I do have a nice rolling boil, which I think is adequate. One thing to think about though is that this flavor does not appear in my extract batches, only AG. If it were DMS wouldn't it show up in both?

 

[HossTheGreat]

I am currently struggling with the same issues with my lighter beers.

It seems to fade with time, but it never truly seems to go away.

I am starting to suspect pH issues with the mash and the sparge, as I am usually pretty vigilant with my temps, and I never put the lid on post boil (until it's cooled).

I was hoping the the 2% acidulated malt would have helped my pH, but apparently I'm getting the same results. Previously I was using 5.2, but many people have said not to trust it. Currently I don't have a method of measuring pH. I've heard the test strips aren't at all accurate and right now I don't feel like blowing $100 on a pH meter. Maybe the next step is to start with RO water and building it up.....

 

[pvtschultz]

AFAIK, DME and LME do not contribute to DMS because the precursors have already been driven off during processing.

 

[HossTheGreat]

AFAIK, DME and LME do not contribute to DMS because the precursors have already been driven off during processing.

I've been using a nice rolling boil, so I don't know if this is the issue or not. I suppose the next time I brew a lighter beer, I could go with a 90 minute boil just to ensure all of those DMS precursors are driven off.

 

[dejesus_fc]

I struggled with this flavor in the past when I was mashing on the stove-top in a bag. Grain is getting into your boil. I used a seperate boil kettle so I was able to filter the wort through a mesh screen with some cheese cloth on it and that solved the problem.

The flavor came back when I got a more traditional mash tun with a false bottom. I wasn't vorlaufing enough. I've had astrigent beers and its a completely different flavor.

 

[HossTheGreat]

I struggled with this flavor in the past when I was mashing on the stove-top in a bag. Grain is getting into your boil. I used a seperate boil kettle so I was able to filter the wort through a mesh screen with some cheese cloth on it and that solved the problem.

The flavor came back when I got a more traditional mash tun with a false bottom. I wasn't vorlaufing enough. I've had astrigent beers and its a completely different flavor.

I was initially quite certain this was happening to me as well. That's why I changed my grind, plus changed my bag to a very tight voile material. I'm now doing the same thing that all of the other BIAB brewers are doing. I would think if it truly was grain/flour getting into the boil then more people would be complaining of this issue as well.

 

[dejesus_fc]

I'm now doing the same thing that all of the other BIAB brewers are doing. I would think if it truly was grain/flour getting into the boil then more people would be complaining of this issue as well.

I still can't figure that out either. Especially considering a lot of BIABers crush their grain very fine. This flavor prompted me to adjust my water profile and lengthen my boil time as well, so my solution could've been a combination of all. Hope you figure it out soon. If all else fails, try mashing in a separate tun, run it through some kind of filter and see if any grain chunks are getting through the bag. Good luck!

 

[HossTheGreat]

I still can't figure that out either. Especially considering a lot of BIABers crush their grain very fine. This flavor prompted me to adjust my water profile and lengthen my boil time as well, so my solution could've been a combination of all. Hope you figure it out soon. If all else fails, try mashing in a separate tun, run it through some kind of filter and see if any grain chunks are getting through the bag. Good luck!

Yeah, I guess I'm looking for a magic bullet here. Maybe it's not just one thing, but a combination of multiple that's doing it. But at this point I feel like I've eliminated nearly every possible culprit. Here on out any adjustments I make feel like is going to be a stretch. This seems like such an uncommon issue, and it just baffles me that nothing I have tried has worked.

 

[dejesus_fc]

What are you going to try next?

 

[HossTheGreat]

What are you going to try next?

Prob gonna try a 90 minute boil next to see the effect.

Also to rule out any issues with the malt I'm using both CMC 2-Row and Tom Fawcett Marris Otter and have noticed the same issue with both, so I certainly don't think the malt has anything to do with it.

 

[dejesus_fc]

Prob gonna try a 90 minute boil next to see the effect.

Also to rule out any issues with the malt I'm using both CMC 2-Row and Tom Fawcett Marris Otter and have noticed the same issue with both, so I certainly don't think the malt has anything to do with it.

Yeah its not malt related. I've done a few 60 minute boils and the problem didn't reappear.

The reason I was convinced it came from boiling husk material is because I had it when I used a bag, I filtered and it went away, then I got a new mash tun and it came back. Then I figured out how to vorlauf properly and it went away again. It was present after I started adjusting my water and doing 90 minute boils.

Its also possible we are discussing two different flavors since we haven't tasted each others beers. Do you know any bjcp judges or something similiar that you could try your beer?

 

[HossTheGreat]

Yeah its not malt related. I've done a few 60 minute boils and the problem didn't reappear.

The reason I was convinced it came from boiling husk material is because I had it when I used a bag, I filtered and it went away, then I got a new mash tun and it came back. Then I figured out how to vorlauf properly and it went away again. It was present after I started adjusting my water and doing 90 minute boils.

Its also possible we are discussing two different flavors since we haven't tasted each others beers. Do you know any bjcp judges or something similiar that you could try your beer?

I was thinking about entering one of these problematic beers into a comp to see what the comments are. Competition feedback I've received on my beers always has been hit or miss, but it's certainly worth a shot I suppose.

 

[tiagobh]

I was thinking about entering one of these problematic beers into a comp to see what the comments are. Competition feedback I've received on my beers always has been hit or miss, but it's certainly worth a shot I suppose.

Having the same issue here! Anyone has successfully eliminated the "grainy" aroma and taste?