have you tried fermenting and serving from the same keg without transferring?

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have you tried fermenting and serving from the same keg without transferring?


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I posted awhile back about an experiment I did with a german pilsner left on yeast. It has been 200day so something like 6.5months and it is still tasting good. I dont detect any off flavors or aromas. It has a slight haze but that is fairly common with many of beers so I dont think it has anything to do with the beer sitting on the yeast.

The other half which I did to my normal process was kicked a couple months back. I did a few side by side tasting while I had it on tap but could not detect anything comparing the two. Initially I thought I oxidized the normal process half but I might have just sample before it was done maturing as it tasted fine when I had it on tap.

This is longer than I normally let beer lager so I feel good about leaving the beer on the yeast without issue and will do it again in the future. I will finish this keg when I kick my current lager.
 
I posted awhile back about an experiment I did with a german pilsner left on yeast. It has been 200day so something like 6.5months and it is still tasting good. I dont detect any off flavors or aromas. It has a slight haze but that is fairly common with many of beers so I dont think it has anything to do with the beer sitting on the yeast.

The other half which I did to my normal process was kicked a couple months back. I did a few side by side tasting while I had it on tap but could not detect anything comparing the two. Initially I thought I oxidized the normal process half but I might have just sample before it was done maturing as it tasted fine when I had it on tap.

This is longer than I normally let beer lager so I feel good about leaving the beer on the yeast without issue and will do it again in the future. I will finish this keg when I kick my current lager.
Interesting no detectible off flavours have appeared after this period of time, especially in a lager. I guess low temperature helps a lot here. I think in many cases, if not most, the beer is unlikely to clear fully. I observe what @DuncB describes at #97. I think what's possibly going on is residual metabolic activity in the yeast slurry produces gas pockets that grow until they erupt out and up through the beer, pulling trub back into suspension so the beer struggles to clear. I'm not sure about lagers (just getting interested in brewing them), but for ales my personal preference is for crystal clear beer, which I perceive as better quality. I might have a lower threshold to yeast in suspension. I always taste my samples regardless from the stage and I find my beers invariably taste crap initially and until the beer has gone bright.
 
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On topic of beer clearing and removing the yeast, my observation of my fermentasaurus is that with yeast in the collection bottle at the bottom, even when the ferment is over there still seems to be some activity from the yeast. This is seen as small bubble ring on surface ( fermenter is at 12 celsius ), beer doesn't clear that well. Once I drop that yeast out so there is very little left, ( ie just suspended to settle ) final clearing can occur spontaneously.
This is what I observe, too. I've found following the traditional practice of getting beer off yeast as soon as possible, once primary fermentation is complete, and into a secondary vessel, before packaging, actually produces much clearer beer in less time. Beer I personally perceive as higher quality and more stable. Professional brewers continue to use secondary vessels generally; e.g., bright tanks. Home brewers who can't be bothered encourage others not to bother using a secondary, because, in their opinion, according to their acceptance level, that is, it isn't necessary. Then a majority potentially follows a questionable practice. What I found quite ironic was when conical FVs entered the home brew market and many of those in denial about secondary vessels got all orgasmic and weak at the knees, drooling over shiny conicals. A dual purpose FV designed for secondary vessel application by transferring the yeast from under the beer.

By the way, I think you might be interested in one of these cask floats. They are all the same size, just colour coded for cask size (tube length). They work great in sankey kegs. Any kegs, in fact. Don't bother with the optional tubing they supply. Source your own lighter (6mm ID x 1.5mm wall) tubing, which is less likely to jam on the keg wall.
 
My experience is different, my beers that I ferment/serve in the same keg are crystal clear after some amount of aging - maybe two months from brew day on average. They only get clearer as time goes on. I use whirlfoc and store cold but no fining agent

Dry hopped beers are the exception, they usually stay hazy to some degree, though I've also had some heavily dry hopped.beers eventually drop clear
 
Interesting no detectible off flavours have appeared after this period of time, especially in a lager. I guess low temperature helps a lot here. I think in many cases, if not most, the beer is unlikely to clear fully. I observe what @DuncB describes at #97. I think what's possibly going on is residual metabolic activity in the yeast slurry produces gas pockets that grow until they erupt out and up through the beer, pulling trub back into suspension so the beer struggles to clear. I'm not sure about lagers (just getting interested in brewing them), but for ales my personal preference is for crystal clear beer, which I perceive as better quality. I might have a lower threshold to yeast in suspension. I always taste my samples regardless from the stage and I find my beers invariably taste crap initially and until the beer has gone bright.
As I said before I dont think the haze in this beer is related to the yeast, I believe it is a protein haze. For sure less than a hop haze. Once I tap the keg I will see if I can capture how it looks, for many they might considered it clear but I can see it is not quite there.

One thing I have noticed with some of my beers is the beer in the keg may have a slight haze like this one but the beer from the same batch in a jar of saved yeast slurry will be crystal clear. Not sure if the larger amount of yeast helps pull down the straggler or possibly no pressure.

My normal practice is get the beer off of the yeast as soon as possible(~5%ABV in 8 to 10days), but I don't do a secondary I just let it settle in the kegs. A half pint of murky beer on first pour and just a thin layer on the bottom of the keg when kicked.
 
As I said before I dont think the haze in this beer is related to the yeast, I believe it is a protein haze. For sure less than a hop haze. Once I tap the keg I will see if I can capture how it looks, for many they might considered it clear but I can see it is not quite there.

One thing I have noticed with some of my beers is the beer in the keg may have a slight haze like this one but the beer from the same batch in a jar of saved yeast slurry will be crystal clear. Not sure if the larger amount of yeast helps pull down the straggler or possibly no pressure.

My normal practice is get the beer off of the yeast as soon as possible(~5%ABV in 8 to 10days), but I don't do a secondary I just let it settle in the kegs. A half pint of murky beer on first pour and just a thin layer on the bottom of the keg when kicked.

It’s possible with good practices and the right yeast strain choice to get perfectly good results without a secondary. I’m not going to argue against that. I’ll skip a secondary myself, when I know I can get away with it. I minimise kettle trub transferring into the FV these days. I know there’s nothing negative about it, fermentation wise, but, again, with some yeast strains, enough kettle trub just means it’s likely to get resuspended every time the yeast cake burps therefore better to use a secondary. Sometimes trubby beers with some yeast strains seem to clear really well. Presumably the suspended solids act as ‘flocculation nuclei’ or something otherwise interacting, increasing the mass of flocculating yeast cells to speed up the gravity driven process?

My harvested yeast generally seem to clear sooner that kegged beers they came from too, but remember, at least in my case anyway, they are stored at a much cooling temperate, in a much smaller vessel at very high population density, where most active cells are likely secreting chemical signals promoting flocculation behaviour. I observe beers (behaviour of novel yeast strains) through a transparent FV (Better Bottle) and they always clear from the top gradually moving down over time; overnight to a few days and up several days, depending on the yeast strain. It sounds like you’re pushing beer from the bottom of the keg, up through a conventional liquid-out dip tube? I bet if you used a floating dip tube the beer pulls clearer much sooner.
 
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Yes, I draw from the bottom. I do have a few of the top draw type devices but have not used them much. For me a beer going from a slight haze to clearer in more desirable then the other way around incase I drank past the clearing level. I have a keg about to kick, I might do another leave the beer on yeast test with the top draw to see how things go.

I have always fermented trub free wort, make for easier guestimating of yeast content of the slurry for repitching.

Sometime in the future I have another thing to try. I bought a lid with a liquid out post so I can put the top draw on that one for serving beer and use the original bottom draw dip tub to draw off yeast for repitching.
 
I have been brewing with this method for 5 batches. ALL were great. I brew extract only with steep grains. I use a yeast that will drop out after fermentation. Normally go 3 weeks at the fermentation temps then to cold for a week. Ferment under low pressure 5 to 10psi. When in cold, increase to 20 psi. Drop to 5 when ready to serve. I use the clear-beer float filter, much better then the 'ball' floats, but they do work OK. I trying one with a filter in an Octfest . Never used secondly for 10 years. Have 2 in the conditioning phase in 2.5g kegs.
I have not tried to dry hop yet. Will do that to the next PA or IPA I brew.

The issue I have is , no bottles of the beer to take along when camping etc. Will try to fill a PET bottle from the batches coming due next week.
 
Interesting no detectible off flavours have appeared after this period of time, especially in a lager. I guess low temperature helps a lot here. I think in many cases, if not most, the beer is unlikely to clear fully. I observe what @DuncB describes at #97. I think what's possibly going on is residual metabolic activity in the yeast slurry produces gas pockets that grow until they erupt out and up through the beer, pulling trub back into suspension so the beer struggles to clear. I'm not sure about lagers (just getting interested in brewing them), but for ales my personal preference is for crystal clear beer, which I perceive as better quality. I might have a lower threshold to yeast in suspension. I always taste my samples regardless from the stage and I find my beers invariably taste crap initially and until the beer has gone bright.
When my beer pipeline is working well and I have one or two kegs waiting for room in the keggerater and they sit in the beer fridge at 34* f for a month or so, they are brite clear and clear up after moving quickly. Also, with a floating diptube you can also use gelatin or other fining agents easily. :mug:
 
Professional brewers continue to use secondary vessels generally; e.g., bright tanks. Home brewers who can't be bothered encourage others not to bother using a secondary, because, in their opinion, according to their acceptance level, that is, it isn't necessary.
What I hear about doing secondarys most on this site is the risk of infection and oxidation outweighs the possible benefit of getting it off the yeast and clearing. For professional brewers this is less of an issue because it can be done in a totally closed Ox free environment. Of course you can use CO2, or even fermentation produced gases to push the beer to a secondary/serving keg, but this is the "without transferring" thread. :cool:
 
What I hear about doing secondarys most on this site is the risk of infection and oxidation outweighs the possible benefit of getting it off the yeast and clearing. For professional brewers this is less of an issue because it can be done in a totally closed Ox free environment. Of course you can use CO2, or even fermentation produced gases to push the beer to a secondary/serving keg, but this is the "without transferring" thread. :cool:
And it usually helps to add a little guiding context to explain the reasoning behind considering confusing practices that seem to go against established practices considered 'best practice'.
 
Need to clear the keg, 238days 7plus months no off flavors or aroma, still a crisp bitterness, slight sulfur aroma. WLP925 warm(mid 60s) under pressure seems to make a nice pilsner.

Last pic shows the slight haze I mentioned earlier, you need to hold it just right up to the light to see it.
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My first beer done fully in a single keg all they way through using a floating dip tube is now cooled and carbed. The color, aroma and flavor of this beer seems to be spot on. It is a cream ale where we did our own cereal mash with cracked corn. It's hazy. Only been in the keezer for a week. I expect it to clear more, but not sure how much it will.
 
Managed to autolyze a batch of mead once due to poor decisions. Was ~12% abv sitting on yeast cake post fermentation around 80 F for a couple weeks. Haven't autolyzed anything lower abv or colder.
 
My first ferment & serve in the same keg is being consumed now and my 2nd is happily fermenting away with my spunding valve set to 30 psi (and hissing!).

My issue has been with the floating dip tube and getting some foam/sputtering when I open the tap. After a second it comes out smooth. I added a weight to the dip tube but it doesn't seem to have changed anything. Opening up the keg I can see it sitting under the beer, it's frustrating. I'm using the basic top draw silicone tube and ball float. Any suggestions? A leak somewhere else maybe?

By the sound of this thread, I might be ok going back to the regular dip tube and harvesting yeast for the next batch anyway.
 
I'd say not that unusual to get more foam with any tap when first used, warmer beer in line and warmer tap, that cools as the beer comes out and it settles.
Just make sure the carbonation vols is correct, your beer line length right and drink more than half a glass of beer at a time.
I use floating dip tubes in kegs and fermentasaurus and they work well. Some issues with a really full keg and the end of the tube was forced up out of the liquid due to the stiffness of the tube.
 
Yeah I have seen that a little before but this is easily the worst I've had it, and this is my first use of the floating dip tube. I think it's longer than I need so I may trim it. Just wondering if there are alternate or recommended floating tubes too.

Edit: I should add that I have wall mount taps, the lines should be ice cold and the tap itself pretty cold.

I'll have another batch ready in a week or so, I'll see if I can rig up the tube a little better and hope for better results.
 
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For those fermenting, naturally carbonating, and serving from the same keg, how do you confirm that fermentation is complete? I'd rather not open up the sealed and pressurized keg, I feel like that defeats the purpose. So far I've just left 2 ales for 14 days and then cold crashed. FG readings are around expected levels.

If I can drink the beer sooner I'd like to though. :cool:
 
$11.80 at aliexpress. They say it's fermzilla but I guess knock off. Short tube and gasket, silicone tubing, SS float ball and filter.
 

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For those fermenting, naturally carbonating, and serving from the same keg, how do you confirm that fermentation is complete? I'd rather not open up the sealed and pressurized keg, I feel like that defeats the purpose. So far I've just left 2 ales for 14 days and then cold crashed. FG readings are around expected levels.

If I can drink the beer sooner I'd like to though. :cool:

instead of watching the gravity readings, I check the pressure on the tank and see if it is building still. Beer is quick, but mead and due to temperature fluctuations, that is just how I do it.
 
instead of watching the gravity readings, I check the pressure on the tank and see if it is building still. Beer is quick, but mead and due to temperature fluctuations, that is just how I do it.
I would not rely upon that. I did that with a dopplebock. cold crashed and stored for months, tapped it later, only to find out it was only half finished fermenting.
 
getting some foam/sputtering when I open the tap. After a second it comes out smooth.

Perhaps:
flow knocks bits of CO2 out of solution, as with during flowing through tube on drawing a pint, and knocked out CO2 collects in tubing over time. Why soft sided tubing is worse at this than regular SS dip tube, dunno.
 
I would not rely upon that. I did that with a dopplebock. cold crashed and stored for months, tapped it later, only to find out it was only half finished fermenting.
I usually crank up the temperature as I have been using kveik. Really, I wouldn’t need to check the pressure even after warming it up w the kveik.
Point taken, though, that pressure wouldn’t be enough to know, without considering other factors.
 
If you brewed the same (or similar) recipe/style consistently, could you just leave the cake in keg?

Batch 1: Filter wort and add yeast.
Batch 2+: Add filtered wort

the cake would of course get thicker each time, but you could just agitate the keg near the end of a batch to draw some off.
 
If you brewed the same (or similar) recipe/style consistently, could you just leave the cake in keg?

Batch 1: Filter wort and add yeast.
Batch 2+: Add filtered wort

the cake would of course get thicker each time, but you could just agitate the keg near the end of a batch to draw some off.
this is exactly what I'm currently doing. alwasy filter the wort so its clean. at the end of the keg the dip tube blows any excess yeast cake out and refill it with fresh clean wort
 
This seems too easy. I'd rather test my gynecological skills by trying to clean a 6 gallon carboy through a 2" opening. And then getting myself all wet in the process.

Seriuosly though, I'm due for some brewing soon. Eliminating the carboys from my process would save a bit of time and a fair amount of water.
 
The torpedo kegs are pretty darn easy. I still use the carboys to campden tablet some tap water. It seems I can’t avoid carrying something too heavy up some stairs.
 
instead of watching the gravity readings, I check the pressure on the tank and see if it is building still. Beer is quick, but mead and due to temperature fluctuations, that is just how I do it.

Yeah I keep a spunding valve on mine and assume that once it has stopped increasing pressure for ~48h things are done. That can happen very quickly.

I just split a 5G batch into 2 spent kegs (with yeast left at the bottom) to test out new wort on "old" yeast. Both went nuts for 24-48h, then slowed, and didn't seem to ferment at all past about 7 days. Just crashing the first one now at about 10 days, will wait a full 2 weeks for the other to see if there's a difference.
 
this is exactly what I'm currently doing. alwasy filter the wort so its clean. at the end of the keg the dip tube blows any excess yeast cake out and refill it with fresh clean wort

You're doing this without a floating dip tube? So the first pours are yeast but there's enough left at the end to restart another ferment?
 
Yeah I keep a spunding valve on mine and assume that once it has stopped increasing pressure for ~48h things are done. That can happen very quickly.

I just split a 5G batch into 2 spent kegs (with yeast left at the bottom) to test out new wort on "old" yeast. Both went nuts for 24-48h, then slowed, and didn't seem to ferment at all past about 7 days. Just crashing the first one now at about 10 days, will wait a full 2 weeks for the other to see if there's a difference.
Pitching on a yeast cake is the way to get a rapid, clean ferment. It does’t matter if you pour some off near the dip tube, plenty of yeasties left to rumble.
 
You're doing this without a floating dip tube? So the first pours are yeast but there's enough left at the end to restart another ferment?
My first few keg ferments were with a full length dip tube. After a few days I simply "'burpped" out the yeast cake into a couple half pint mason jars using a short picnic tap to harvest the yeast for another couple batches and let whatever was still in the keg finish everything up.

With a floating dip tube you cannot harvest any yeast. But when the keg blows (that last pint is going to be a lot of yeast), there will still be enough residual yeast cake in the keg to simply dump another fresh batch of wort into the keg and let it rip. If that last pint glass was CLEAN, you can probably save that yeast as well.
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With a floating dip tube you cannot harvest any yeast. But when the keg blows (that last pint is going to be a lot of yeast), there will still be enough residual yeast cake in the keg to simply dump another fresh batch of wort into the keg and let it rip. If that last pint glass was CLEAN, you can probably save that yeast as well.

I have done this no problem, I was just confused on your process a bit. I haven't seen an issue yet with lack of yeast, but there's some trub in there too I'm sure. I do some filtering of the wort but not with an extremely fine filter (yet).
 
You're doing this without a floating dip tube? So the first pours are yeast but there's enough left at the end to restart another ferment?
I realized I did not fully answer your question...

yes...with a regular full length dip tube, after you harvest the yeast, and then after you drink all the beer, there is still residual yeast in the keg at the very end. Not a lot but enough to pitch wort onto. If for any reason you feel there is not enough yeast left in the keg, you can always pitch some of the harvest that you saved BEFORE you drank the keg.
 
yes...with a regular full length dip tube, after you harvest the yeast, and then after you drink all the beer, there is still residual yeast in the keg at the very end. Not a lot but enough to pitch wort onto. If for any reason you feel there is not enough yeast left in the keg, you can always pitch some of the harvest that you saved BEFORE you drank the keg.


It seems to be that with the full length tube in there, you'd get a pint or two of yeast to start (which you can save, whatever), but then wouldn't you get some residual yeast in every pint as it gets agitated a little by the flow of beer? It's so close by the intake.
 
after the first pint or two, all the sediment around the pickup should be cleared out and anything remaining is hard packed. Unless you disturb the keg, it will pour clear to the end after your first serving.
 
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