have you tried fermenting and serving from the same keg without transferring?

[odie]

how long can the keg fermented beer sit on the yeast/trub cake before it goes bad? Some of my kegs of finished beer sit 6-12+ months in temperature controlled storage. RIS, high gravity Belgians and dopplebocks, etc... granted those are racked off the yeast/trub cake.

 

[2BedroomBrewing]

Mostly IPA's. Maybe 4-6 weeks. It wasn't terrible, just a little twang I was picking up. I may revist this technique just to give it another try.

I've been using this method for a few batches now and for the first time I got a twang on a Kolsch that was about 3 months old. Not sure if it was due to the yeast (Wyeast 2565) or the age... the other amber and pale ales were finished in less than 2 months and were totally fine .

 

[cmac62]

how long can the keg fermented beer sit on the yeast/trub cake before it goes bad? Some of my kegs of finished beer sit 6-12+ months in temperature controlled storage. RIS, high gravity Belgians and dopplebocks, etc... granted those are racked off the yeast/trub cake.

I would think the keg filled with alcohol and sitting in a cold fridge the autalasys or whatever it is called would be slowed significantly. I usually don't worry when transferring to the keg if I get some of the yeast and they have sat in the beer fridge waiting for a spot in the keggerator for months with no problem.

 

[odie]

If I fermented a RIS or Quad in the keg, it would sit for a year with the beer on the yeast cake. That is my concern.

 

[ba-brewer]

An update to experiment with leaving the beer on yeast. I sampled the beer on yeast and the control at about 2.5weeks of lagering. Both were a bit hazy still and need some more lagering but could be consumed if you dont mind a little rough edges.

Bad news is my control keg tasted a touch oxidized so I might need to drink that one before it gets to the point I would normally prefer to drink it.

The keg on yeast is in a 2.5gal keg that I cut the dip tube to leave 1pint of beer behind. I did not not pick up any yeast on the first pour.

 

[seilenos]

With regards to #3...my entire kettle gets screened thru a bucket strainer (100-200 micron). Everything, so when fermentation is done, I have a very "short" cake that appears to be most all yeast. I currently save it and the entire fermenter bucket "dregs" is about a pint total volume of beer & yeast. No other debris. Everything else goes into the keg as clean beer.

This piqued my interest as I have a bottling bucket that I haven't used in years and extra BIAB bags.

I'm wondering if after chilling in my boil kettle can I rack to the bottling bucket that has a BIAB bag in it, pitch the yeast, and then rack to a keg.

How much do you fill your keg?
Alternatively, how much head space do you leave?

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I use the floating dip tube as there are a bunch of hop-stand hops that I dump in there with my splits of smoked and charred white oak. I’m using 15.5Gal torpedo keg and screen around the floating dip tube. I may transfer out to some smaller kegs before it sits in there too long, but serving out of the new birthday kegerator for now.

 

[Jako]

exactly my thoughts...definitely wanna try this ferment and serve thing...

So about to finish my first 10G using this method. I lost a decent amount of beer as expected. I would definitely do this again. Having a floating dip dude would be ideal even after moving to clean kegs after fermenting.

I have a few ideas I want to play with. I have been slammed trying to get my front yard ready for hydro seed. I had to run 3 more valves this past weekend. Luck for me sitting at my work desk for a week I had plenty of time to visualize in my head how it should come together.

What would be a really good combination is 10G conical to drop trub and most of the yeast then transfer to kegs while still sorta fermenting. Leaves yeast in suspension for conditioning and carbonation. But it defeats the whole idea I guess.

 

[odie]

didn't cut dip tubes. lol i used the first bit as my yeast sample for the next batch

how was the beer clarity after the initial "yeast harvest"? How much did you have to pour before the clear beer started?

 

[Jako]

2 things i didn't cold crash and i didn't wait much time after moving it to a keg. the clarity now is good. i had to pour off as much as you would any other batch.

i would say the only thing that really stands out is how much yeast is left at the bottom even after a transfer to a clean keg. once the keg taps you end up with sludge. a normal keg for me would be a cloudy yeast beer mix.

my take away is its easy, saves me some C02. but the big thing i noticed is the beer fermented very fast with almost no lager sulfer smells i fermented at 5PSI. looking forward to finding ways to improve this process.

 

[snowman_fs]

My experiments with ferment and serve from the same tank have led me to a place where I do half of my primary directly in my boil kettle before I transfer into the serving keg; both with floating dip tubes. This drops out most of the early / ugly trub and is a hybrid approach.

For a typical IPA I give it 2 days in my BK after pitching my yeast of choice. I’ll dry hop with active fermentation underway on day 2-3 while still in the BK and then transfer into my serving keg on day 4-5 with the final dry hop addition. From then on it just needs another week before samples / pints can be pulled. I have never worried about long term stability as I prefer my beer fresh. 2-3 weeks per keg in the keezer is all I need.

People always say, “Hey but you are tying up your BK and can’t brew again”. True, but I also like the schedule it creates. By the next weekend, my BK is cleaned up and ready to go again so there is no “problem”. I can’t keep up with every weekend brewing anyway. By reducing transfers and cleaning it actually allows/motivates me to brew more often than before.

The major caveat is that I have a method to close and control the temps in the BK during this early primary ferment.

 

[twd000]

My experiments with ferment and serve from the same tank have led me to a place where I do half of my primary directly in my boil kettle before I transfer into the serving keg; both with floating dip tubes. This drops out most of the early / ugly trub and is a hybrid approach.

For a typical IPA I give it 2 days in my BK after pitching my yeast of choice. I’ll dry hop with active fermentation underway on day 2-3 while still in the BK and then transfer into my serving keg on day 4-5 with the final dry hop addition. From then on it just needs another week before samples / pints can be pulled. I have never worried about long term stability as I prefer my beer fresh. 2-3 weeks per keg in the keezer is all I need.

People always say, “Hey but you are tying up your BK and can’t brew again”. True, but I also like the schedule it creates. By the next weekend, my BK is cleaned up and ready to go again so there is no “problem”. I can’t keep up with every weekend brewing anyway. By reducing transfers and cleaning it actually allows/motivates me to brew more often than before.

The major caveat is that I have a method to close and control the temps in the BK during this early primary ferment.

That's pretty slick. How do you control temperature in the kettle for those first two days?

 

[murphyslaw]

How about big happy NEIPAs? I guess you dry hop with a few points left to mitigate the 02 ingress when opening the lid. No issues with the large amount of hops?

I'm fermenting a NEIPA in a keg now, with a floating dip tube. Just transferred to a serving keg that was purged with fermentation gas. Total horror show. Poppets clogged, disconnects clogged. Ended up gutting my poppet and disconnect to prevent clogs and pushing it through a tube hanging in the open lid like it was 2010.
Debating between having some gutted poppets and disconnects on hand and using them on both sides of the jumper to pass the beer. Would probably work, but it also introduces some 02. Got me thinking about just serving from the fermenting keg.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

How about big happy NEIPAs? I guess you dry hop with a few points left to mitigate the 02 ingress when opening the lid. No issues with the large amount of hops?

I'm fermenting a NEIPA in a keg now, with a floating dip tube. Just transferred to a serving keg that was purged with fermentation gas. Total horror show. Poppets clogged, disconnects clogged. Ended up gutting my poppet and disconnect to prevent clogs and pushing it through a tube hanging in the open lid like it was 2010.
Debating between having some gutted poppets and disconnects on hand and using them on both sides of the jumper to pass the beer. Would probably work, but it also introduces some 02. Got me thinking about just serving from the fermenting keg.

Do you have the screen around the floating dip tube? I hop in the fermentation keg maybe not NEIPA amounts of hops though I’m working up to it. Also, I swirl/slosh the keg some as fermentation is wrapping up, to hopefully sink some of the free hops. I haven’t had a clogged poppet yet.

 

[murphyslaw]

Do you have the screen around the floating dip tube? I hop in the fermentation keg maybe not NEIPA amounts of hops though I’m working up to it. Also, I swirl/slosh the keg some as fermentation is wrapping up, to hopefully sink some of the free hops. I haven’t had a clogged poppet yet.

No, I don't have a screen. I'd imagine that would just be a different clog point but I could be wrong.

But if I can drop 10oz-12oz of hops into a keg and later serve from it without any ill effect on the beer, problem solved.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

No, I don't have a screen. I'd imagine that would just be a different clog point but I could be wrong.

But if I can drop 10oz-12oz of hops into a keg and later serve from it without any ill effect on the beer, problem solved.

I’d try the screen. I would think the poppet would get just as clogged in serving as in transferring.

 

[Brooothru]

Do you have the screen around the floating dip tube? I hop in the fermentation keg maybe not NEIPA amounts of hops though I’m working up to it. Also, I swirl/slosh the keg some as fermentation is wrapping up, to hopefully sink some of the free hops. I haven’t had a clogged poppet yet.

This thread got me rethinking a few things. The problem with keg fermenting for me was always the self-limiting volume factor of 5 gallons, minus necessary head space and volume loss due to yeast/trub settling. So, I got a stainless conical so I could dump trub, harvest yeast, and get some control over temperature. That led to glycol chilling. But that wasn't enough since I couldn't spund in the fermenter, which led to a unitank. The unitank solved all my problems, except one: tying up my single vessel for 4-6 weeks (ales) or even longer (lagers).

This time of year with summer diversions interfering with my brewing timeline for Fall competitions, I came up short on the time factor. The obvious solution was to dust off the original conical, thus doubling my brewing capacity and effectively reducing the overall timeline by 50%. The only way to replicate my process was to go with keg fermenting. What I decided to do was get a Kegland Kegmentor with floating dip-tube.

I needed the extra keg space for (6) 5-gallon simultaneous brews, and of course I only had (5) 5-gallon kegs. I do have (4) 2 ½ gallon kegs and a couple 6L Torpedo kegs, so I can at least transfer my current "serving beer" into smaller kegs and keep the kegerator functioning for daily consumption, which frees up all of my 5 gallon kegs. I have a Helles in the unitank, a Blonde that I brewed 5 days ago in the conical, and a Kolsch that had been in the conical for 5 days under temperature control at 63F now spunding in the Kegmentor at room temperature. The volume of the Kegmentor is 7.2 gallons, so I was able to pressure transfer a full 5+ gallons worth of mostly fermented Kolsch out of the conical and allow for normal settling losses which will stay behind in the Kegmentor. The pressure is already at 15 psig and ready to go into the beer fridge to cold crash to 35F. After crashing for a week it'll be ready to do a pressure transfer to a 5 gallon serving/bottling keg, fully carbed and hopefully cleared and ready for bottling for the comp.

The final "cherry on top" came after I pressure transferred from the conical to the Kegmentor. Just under 6 gallons of mostly settled beer went into the Kegmentor leaving close to a gallon in the bottom of the conical. I dumped the remains into a 1 gallon jug, and after "washing" the remains recovered close to 2L of very clean and very viable dense WLP-029 Kolsch yeast slurry. The Kegmentor is doing the work of a Brite tank at a fraction of the cost. I can replicate the process and timeline I use with the unitank with the only real difference being that I need to crash and condition the Kegmentor beer in the beer fridge instead of simply hooking up a glycol line, all with virtually no oxygen exposure.

 

[murphyslaw]

I’d try the screen. I would think the poppet would get just as clogged in serving as in transferring.

Yeah, you may be right. My thought was that if I was serving from the fermenting keg, I would cold crash and let everything drop before pulling any beer. Since I'm currently transferring to a second keg, and trying to do that with a few points left to mitigate any 02 pickup, I can't really crash before transferring.

The screen is cheap enough that its worth a try. I guess the only downside is that its going to hold my dip tube a bit further from the bottom of the keg.

 

[McKnuckle]

I often ferment and serve in the same keg with a floating dip tube. Due to slow drinking progress this summer, I've got an amber lager on tap now for a record 7 months. Here's a photo. It's still as clear as ever and tastes completely clean. This one used WLP802.

 

[ba-brewer]

There is couple of threads with similar content and ideas and I think I post my experiment in different one but I did a split batch of german pilsner fermented with WLP925 high pressure lager. Half my normal process and the other fermented under pressure and allowed to sit on the yeast cake. I cut the dip tube to prevent picking up the yeast(might of been needed). I test at around days, 30, 60 and 90 and could not pick up any off flavors on the half sitting on yeast. I am at day 117 in the keg and will probable let it a little bit further trying it again but seems long enough for most of my beers to give a full batch a try some time.

 

[oakbarn]

definitely and interesting idea. some thoughts...
4. How do you seal the keg during fermentation? Often the big o-ring doesn't seat until you blast it with CO2. But with a blow off tube on the gas post, the keg is unpressurized as it ferments.

Once you seal the o Ring, it will likely remain sealed. That has been my experience even if you un pressure the keg.

 

[ba-brewer]

When/before I put on the spunding valve I give it a shot of 30PSI to ensure the lid seats.

 

[moreb33rplz]

Drinking my pilsner that has sat in the same keg for about three months now - I'd say it continues to get better with age so far

 

[odie]

Once you seal the o Ring, it will likely remain sealed. That has been my experience even if you un pressure the keg.

only about half the time for me...

 

[Brooothru]

only about half the time for me...

Then it's likely something other than the keg lid O ring that's causing the leak. Sometimes (rarely) I've found leaks at the PRV. More commonly I've had leaks at the QD posts with poorly seating poppets, and sometimes at the threaded mount ends' gaskets. I've got a real mixed bag of kegs, most of them rebuilt Cornies. The most trouble I've had have been with Torpedo kegs (I have three). I love the design of the Torpedos but have had ongoing issues with kegs not holding a gas charge at both the lid seal as well as the posts. I also have exactly one other keg I bought new from a "reputable" source that I also have to monitor closely. The most dependable kegs I have are the ones that I bought "recycled" and reworked, banged and bruised but still reliable.

 

[odie]

nope...it's the lid...I have some kegs that will "bleed" out the lid gasket at very low PSI. They will just not seat with a gradual application of CO2. Only a quick "blast" will seat the oring.

 

[ba-brewer]

I have some of those type kegs, a quick shot of 25 or 30psi will seat them but 10psi will not. Once seated then 10psi or lower is fine.

I start swapping out my lid o-rings with these over sized ones and it fixes that problem.

 

[murphyslaw]

I'm on my second keg ferment. I had transferred from the the fermenting keg to the serving keg on day 3 at 1.022. Added hops and expected the remaining fermentation to scrub any o2 and also carbonate the beer. Attached the spunding valve and put about 5psi of tank gas in it just to make sure it was working.

I left the spunding valve basically closed and planned to watch it and bleed it when I got to 25psi to find the right setting.. Two days later, I still had 5psi. I played with the spunding valve to make sure it was working and bled about half of that. Cranked the knob back down. 4 days later and I'm still around 2.5psi.

I just pulled a hydrometer sample and got 1.018. It was somewhat carbonated.

I did have some trouble getting the lid to seal at first, but swapped the lid, added some gel, applied a little pressure and it passed the starsan check. And like I said, it's holding a low level psi just fine.

Any ideas?

 

[balrog]

some trouble getting the lid to seal at first

Sometimes it's a good idea to "bump" the keg up with CO2 tank to seal the lid, then install spunding valve. That can also give you another reading of the pressure, if you let the tank feed the keg until no more goes in, then the reading on the tank's gauge (if trusted) should be the spunding valve's reading, or note the difference.

When I ferment in keg, I typically let ferment without pressure, using just an airlock of some sort. HOWEVER, prior to "the end" I will use my CO2 to burp the keg THROUGH THE LIQUID OUT in order to clear any schmutzensheis from the floating dip tube. This also helps set the lid, and then I install spund.

 

[soccerdad]

I like to do 3 gallon batches since I have 4 three gallon kegs. I also prefer lifting 3 gallons versus lifting 5 gallons. I have 5 or 6 five gallon kegs. So my plan - not exactly fermenting and serving in the same keg - is this.
Make the batch 3.5 gallons into fermenter
Cut a liquid dip tube to leave a half gallon of trub in a five gallon keg
Ferment under pressure in 5 gallon keg with short liquid tube
After fermentation, use CO2 to transfer to 3 gallon keg leaving trub behind
Harvest yeast from trub left behind

 

[moreb33rplz]

I'm on my second keg ferment. I had transferred from the the fermenting keg to the serving keg on day 3 at 1.022. Added hops and expected the remaining fermentation to scrub any o2 and also carbonate the beer. Attached the spunding valve and put about 5psi of tank gas in it just to make sure it was working.

I left the spunding valve basically closed and planned to watch it and bleed it when I got to 25psi to find the right setting.. Two days later, I still had 5psi. I played with the spunding valve to make sure it was working and bled about half of that. Cranked the knob back down. 4 days later and I'm still around 2.5psi.

I just pulled a hydrometer sample and got 1.018. It was somewhat carbonated.

I did have some trouble getting the lid to seal at first, but swapped the lid, added some gel, applied a little pressure and it passed the starsan check. And like I said, it's holding a low level psi just fine.

Any ideas?

I haven't done this so take my comment with a grain of salt. I've also read about people here doing it just like you described, but it always seemed to me if you transfer the beer on day three at let's say roughly 50-60% attenuation, you run the risk of stalling the ferment.

That's why I just keep it in the same keg the entire life of the beer, or at least don't transfer until fermentation is complete. I bought a spunding valve and have used it on my last couple of batches but gotta admit - I'm not really sure what I'm getting out of it other than saving a small amount of co2 in my tank.

 

[murphyslaw]

I haven't done this so take my comment with a grain of salt. I've also read about people here doing it just like you described, but it always seemed to me if you transfer the beer on day three at let's say roughly 50-60% attenuation, you run the risk of stalling the ferment.

That's why I just keep it in the same keg the entire life of the beer, or at least don't transfer until fermentation is complete. I bought a spunding valve and have used it on my last couple of batches but gotta admit - I'm not really sure what I'm getting out of it other than saving a small amount of co2 in my tank.

I do plan to try serving out of my fermenting keg next time. But I'd like to try spunding and lots of people seem to do it without stalling.

Sometimes it's a good idea to "bump" the keg up with CO2 tank to seal the lid, then install spunding valve. That can also give you another reading of the pressure, if you let the tank feed the keg until no more goes in, then the reading on the tank's gauge (if trusted) should be the spunding valve's reading, or note the difference.

When I ferment in keg, I typically let ferment without pressure, using just an airlock of some sort. HOWEVER, prior to "the end" I will use my CO2 to burp the keg THROUGH THE LIQUID OUT in order to clear any schmutzensheis from the floating dip tube. This also helps set the lid, and then I install spund.

That's a good idea. I'll give it a try.

 

[McKnuckle]

Transferring works, but if you note the title of this thread, it’s about using one keg to ferment and serve with no transferring. This is the ultimate hands off method!

You don’t have to worry about cold side oxidation, because the keg purges itself. There is no racking, so no separate fermenter or tubing to clean. You don’t even technically have to deal with spunding, although it’s easy to do even if you don’t get it perfect. You can always force carbonate to make up the difference, or bleed off pressure if you have overdone it.

Give it a try! Just install a floating dip tube. That’s pretty essential to the process.

 

[odie]

bingo...previous posts are going off-topic...there are other threads for that...messes up "thread searches" later IMO.

Instead of transferring the beer, transfer the yeast...My first few 3-4 keg ferment/serves are with the long dip tube. I was able to harvest a lot of yeast for future beers but leave the beer in the fermenter keg and serve it. I've got two of those pouring right now. After the first pint puked out most the yeast (into some 1/2 pint jars) the beer cleared fairly quick. Just be careful moving the finished keg into the kegerator (yeast cake).

I have another round of keg ferment/serves going with floating dip tubes so all the yeast will remain in the keg. It will be a short while before I get to tap those. But the plan here will be to save & store the empty kegs cold and then pitch fresh wort into the keg and old yeast, no keg cleaning or dumping the yeast out.

 

[murphyslaw]

You're right, I've strayed off the topic.

I'm brewing a hefe and a gose this weekend. I'd like to try the single keg method on those, but I'm serving them at a picnic sort of event. So I'll have to put the kegs in the car, drive about a mile, unload, and maybe only have an hour at most to settle and trub that gets kicked up. I do have floating dip tubes, so maybe it'll be fine?

 

[ba-brewer]

You don’t even technically have to deal with spunding, although it’s easy to do even if you don’t get it perfect. You can always force carbonate to make up the difference, or bleed off pressure if you have overdone it.

I really like the idea of naturally carbing in the keg but I always seem to get foamy kegs when I do. I try to go for about half carbed so I can top off with the tank.

Spunding is like insurance. If you over do it it takes a bit of effort to get the beer to give up that extra CO2. Or it does for me. Shaking the keg does between pressure reliefs seem to speed it up.

 

[soccerdad]

A question for @McKnuckle and @odie. Do you really need the floating tube? Could you, when fermentation is done, pull two or three pints of yeast and trub for any yeast harvest and stop when you see clear beer? Or is the narrow diameter of the liquid dip tube likely to clog beyond measure? Obviously when the keg kicks, you will have sludge on the very bottom, but you have that anyway.

 

[cmac62]

You're right, I've strayed off the topic.

I'm brewing a hefe and a gose this weekend. I'd like to try the single keg method on those, but I'm serving them at a picnic sort of event. So I'll have to put the kegs in the car, drive about a mile, unload, and maybe only have an hour at most to settle and trub that gets kicked up. I do have floating dip tubes, so maybe it'll be fine?

With the floating dip tubes you should be good unless the beer is really stirred up during transfer. Have fun.

 

[moreb33rplz]

bingo...previous posts are going off-topic...there are other threads for that...messes up "thread searches" later IMO.

Instead of transferring the beer, transfer the yeast...My first few 3-4 keg ferment/serves are with the long dip tube. I was able to harvest a lot of yeast for future beers but leave the beer in the fermenter keg and serve it. I've got two of those pouring right now. After the first pint puked out most the yeast (into some 1/2 pint jars) the beer cleared fairly quick. Just be careful moving the finished keg into the kegerator (yeast cake).

I have another round of keg ferment/serves going with floating dip tubes so all the yeast will remain in the keg. It will be a short while before I get to tap those. But the plan here will be to save & store the empty kegs cold and then pitch fresh wort into the keg and old yeast, no keg cleaning or dumping the yeast out.

No worries about having enough viable/healthy yeast doing that? I've been thinking about doing the same but haven't gotten bold enough yet

 

[moreb33rplz]

A question for @McKnuckle and @odie. Do you really need the floating tube? Could you, when fermentation is done, pull two or three pints of yeast and trub for any yeast harvest and stop when you see clear beer? Or is the narrow diameter of the liquid dip tube likely to clog beyond measure? Obviously when the keg kicks, you will have sludge on the very bottom, but you have that anyway.

You didn't ask me, but I've done this a few times before my floating dip tube, and I had both success and horrible horrible clogs.