has anyone tried this bag-in-a-box concentrate for apple cider?

[twd000]

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/na...kyr_VEXyonYiTvo4YSTR4C9_rWN7LIiYaAvG1EALw_wcB

Found this when searching for sources of apple juice concentrate. 3 gallons of syrup/concentrate dilutes to 18 gallons. At $54, that's $3/gallon. Plus home delivery of a single box is a lot more convenient than hauling home 36 half-gallons of Tree Top or Langer's. The label says 100% apple juice - any concern about preservatives that would prevent this from fermenting?

 

[CKuhns]

There is a pic of the side of the box in your link that has the ingredient list on it. It lists Apple juice, Potassium Sorbate, Ascorbic Acid and Citric Acid as the ingredients.

Citric Acid (I think is naturally found in apples) and is probably OK if not too high, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) is definitely OK. I do not purchase any apple juice with anything other than apple juice and ascorbic acid/vitamin C in the ingredient list.

Potassium Sorbate will very likely give you problems as that is what is used to inhibit the yeast near the end of fermentation to hit your target FG or when back sweetening to not let the residual yeast revive themselves and eat your sugars you just added. Now, I have no idea how much Potassium Sorbate this stuff has in it and you may be able to overcome it with a good yeast and nutrients. - I would not try it.

 

[lump42]

The sorbate won't kill yeast or stop yeast from fermenting. It inhibits the yeast cells from dividing, so now build up of yeast population once the yeast is pitched.

I've never used that stuff, but I've fermented store bought cider with sorbate. You just need to pitch it on a full healthy yeast cake. Not that it was great but it was alcoholic by the end. I did it as a personal challenge.

 

[ebbelwoi]

I've read plenty of posts about people having problems with fermentation only to discover that their juice contained potassium sorbate. Because of that, I personally wouldn't use it for the must. However, I might use it for backsweetening. Of course, it takes a lot less juice/AJC for backsweetening.

 

[Maylar]

I avoid any juice with potassium sorbate or sodium benzoate. Not worth the aggravation IMO.

 

[twd000]

There is a pic of the side of the box in your link that has the ingredient list on it. It lists Apple juice, Potassium Sorbate, Ascorbic Acid and Citric Acid as the ingredients.

Citric Acid (I think is naturally found in apples) and is probably OK if not too high, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) is definitely OK. I do not purchase any apple juice with anything other than apple juice and ascorbic acid/vitamin C in the ingredient list.

Potassium Sorbate will very likely give you problems as that is what is used to inhibit the yeast near the end of fermentation to hit your target FG or when back sweetening to not let the residual yeast revive themselves and eat your sugars you just added. Now, I have no idea how much Potassium Sorbate this stuff has in it and you may be able to overcome it with a good yeast and nutrients. - I would not try it.

Good eye! I didn't see the sorbate on the label. I guess "100% Apple Juice" means "100% plus a bunch of other crap"!

Has anyone found a cost effective source of bulk juice that doesn't require hauling home dozens of half-gallon plastic bottles? Trying to reduce the waste in our household

 

[lump42]

If your willing to use that concentrate, you could just use off brand frozen concentrate. Ingredients usually are just AJC, ascorbic acid and/or citric acid (pH adjustment, antioxidant, preservatives).

 

[bmd2k1]

Old Orchard brand sells 5gal 100% Apple Concentrate - no preservatives....for $59. Gotta pick it up in Sparta Michigan or arrange 4 pickup. I haven't tried it yet but am interested. I currently use the store brand FAJC from my local Kroger at $1.25 a can.

Cheers [emoji111]

 

[Blacksmith1]

looked them up. they sell 23 different concentrates. I am very interested. just gotta save up and see if a trucker buddy of mine ever goes there

 

[S-Met]

Not sure if the pdf will load, but attached is the ingredients. HCFC is the main ingredient. I'd skip for this reason alone, besides the preservatives already mentioned.

 

[Blacksmith1]

is that enough to disrupt fermentation?

 

[ebbelwoi]

My guess is that if it's enough to work as a preservative, it's enough to disrupt fermentation. I mean, they put it in there for a reason, right?

 

[CKuhns]

is that enough to disrupt fermentation?

.01 is 100 PPM and my understanding is that 50 ppm with alcohol (post ferment) will inhibit yeast from dividing it very likely will not stop an active ferment. Talking to the local vineyard owner he stated he adds 50 ppm to some wines to finish and be sweetened. Some juices i have seen are 100 - 250 ppm depending upon the expected shelf life.

This link from EC Krause explains it pretty well.
https://blog.eckraus.com/can-i-use-potassium-sorbate-to-stop-a-fermentation

 

[S-Met]

See attached study on preservatives. Last few pages has a list of juices and what preservatives were found in the 156 juices tesed. Keep in mind that this study was from 1994, so the brands and preservatives percentages may not be currently accurate.

 

[applescrap]

I would be out. It is hard to beat 2 g for 7.50 or whatever it is at sams. It tastes plenty good to me, not amazing but good.

 

[S-Met]

I would be out. It is hard to beat 2 g for 7.50 or whatever it is at sams. It tastes plenty good to me, not amazing but good.

Might be regional or taxes, but I get 2g for $5 @ sams club. Not amazing, but definitely drinkable. Hard to beat the price. 5 gal in the keg for under $20

 

[theinterneti]

Tree top has some juice concentrates created with fermentation in mind I stumbled on a couple months ago. Looks like they are focused on commercial customers entirely though...

https://foodingredients.treetop.com/fruit-ingredients/specialty-markets/hard-ciders-alcohol/

They had a heritage-style fermenting juice a couple months ago, but that site just redirects to the finishing style juice now.

Pretty great instruction sheet too...
https://foodingredients.treetop.com/Assets/Documents/Brochures-Sales lit/Cider Instructions.pdf



I just filled out a sample request. Lets see if they send me some concentrate!

 

[applescrap]

Might be regional or taxes, but I get 2g for $5 @ sams club. Not amazing, but definitely drinkable. Hard to beat the price. 5 gal in the keg for under $20

Haha, darn it.

 

[S-Met]

just filled out a sample request. Lets see if they send me some concentrate!

Please keep us informed. Shipping costs package size and minimum volumes.

 

[Blacksmith1]

If you bounce around the product links you can find several concentrates, and another site which has many more juice concentrates. It's a shame none of these companies want to sell smaller quantities to guys like us. They are missing out on a huge market.

 

[CKuhns]

Tree Top Frozen Apple Juice Concentrate (FAJC) from Cub Foods $1.19 a can sometimes on sale for 0.99 cents if you want to just drink it mix with 3 cans of water and comes out at about 1.050 OG. The great thing with FAJC is that you can add less water to kick up the gravity and apple flavor. I typically target 1.065 OG using 18 cans and water to the target OG gets me 4.5 gallons or so for about $20.

 

[twd000]

I contacted Tree Top about their concentrate and got a verse terse reply that don't sell to retail consumers.

I'm not a member at Sam's or Costco so that's not an option

 

[theinterneti]

I at least got the minimum order amounts from tree top...
4 52-gallon drums, or 7 5-gallon buckets.

Not promising unless you have a significant amount of freezer space available! It is also stronger than the stuff in the freezer isle. 70 brix!
I wonder what cider houses are using this stuff to backsweeten?

 

[bmd2k1]

I at least got the minimum order amounts from tree top...
4 52-gallon drums, or 7 5-gallon buckets.

Not promising unless you have a significant amount of freezer space available! It is also stronger than the stuff in the freezer isle. 70 brix!
I wonder what cider houses are using this stuff to backsweeten?

FYI...Old Orchard will sell ya a single 5gal bucket - but you need to arrange for shipping/pickup. Price on that earlier pic I posted.

 

[Blacksmith1]

old orchard also has a bunch of flavors/mixes in the small cans but they don't seem to know where those are. I sent an info request to them almost 2 weeks ago using the form on their site and haven't heard a peep from them.

 

[S-Met]

I at least got the minimum order amounts from tree top...
4 52-gallon drums, or 7 5-gallon buckets.

Not promising unless you have a significant amount of freezer space available! It is also stronger than the stuff in the freezer isle. 70 brix!
I wonder what cider houses are using this stuff to backsweeten?

While the drums would be really badass, not realistic for me. But 35gal of concentrate is feasible.

Any price mentioned?

 

[papz]

If you get the drums, you could probably use them as fermenters after you empty them.

 

[S-Met]

Per their website, concentrate is 70 brix. 1.1 gal concentrate in 3.9 gal h2o is approx 19 brix. Fermented dry is about 10.8% abv. Po-mans math: 1:4 concentrate:h2o ratio 140 gal 10%abv cider per 7 bucket minimum order. Since I like lawnmower cider @5-7%, I'm looking at a potential for 240-280 gal. Bucket shelf life approx 2-3 yrs @70°f. I'm not sure if I am that committed.

 

[theinterneti]

Any price mentioned?

Sadly, no price from them yet.

@S-Met: I think these buckets need to stay frozen to hold for 2 years. Basically you need a (large!) dedicated chest freezer or a walk-in.
I'd guess that the price would be ~$75/bucket -- solely based on the price of a 12oz can of concentrate * 50.

@ 1:4 for 10% -- Like you I am aiming for 5-7% abv (1:8 ratio) and that would be about 40 gallons of cider per 5 gallon bucket! I'd need 8 of the fermenting buckets I currently use per batch, LOL.

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I just emailed them back asking how much for 7 pails delivered to me in beautiful Hillsboro Oregon.

 

[S-Met]

Sadly, no price from them yet.

@S-Met: I think these buckets need to stay frozen to hold for 2 years. Basically you need a (large!) dedicated chest freezer or a walk-in.
I'd guess that the price would be ~$75/bucket -- solely based on the price of a 12oz can of concentrate * 50.

@ 1:4 for 10% -- Like you I am aiming for 5-7% abv (1:8 ratio) and that would be about 40 gallons of cider per 5 gallon bucket! I'd need 8 of the fermenting buckets I currently use per batch, LOL.

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I just emailed them back asking how much for 7 pails delivered to me in beautiful Hillsboro Oregon.

Shelf life on website for apple reads 2 years @ 70°f, 3 years @ 45°f, not recommended for freezing.

 

[theinterneti]

Shelf life on website for apple reads 2 years @ 70°f, 3 years @ 45°f, not recommended for freezing.

Yes, but thats for 1 of 3 possible fruit puree options. Sadly, in the technical document they emailed me, at the top of pg 3 it says...

Ambient | refrigerated | Frozen
N/A | 18 Mos | 2 yrs

Also, I tried to get a price out of them. Somewhat terse response that they needed to know the company name for a price. So, like @twd000 I basically got shut down.

 

[Blacksmith1]

Know anyone with a smoothie shop, LHBS, Ice cream shop, locally owned anything that might use that kinda product? they might be able to order it for you.

 

[S-Met]

Know anyone with a smoothie shop, LHBS, Ice cream shop, locally owned anything that might use that kinda product? they might be able to order it for you.

Friends with a local brewery, I'm sure I could request through them.

 

[theinterneti]

I think that anything that is liquid and 'shelf-stable' MUST have added preservatives that could affect fermentation.

googling "5 gallon apple juice concentrate" turned up a bevy of useful results on this.

The only one with an upfront price on the website...
https://www.kingorchards.com/product/mcintosh-apple-juice-concentrate-5-gallon-pail/

Brewcraft has buckets of the tree top concentrate we have been discussing...
https://shop.brewcraftusa.com/finis...-1-5-gallon-pail-4000985000-tt-applefinish-5p

Also mentioned on cidercraftmag.com...
https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/bsg-select-ciderbase-5-gal

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Do people really use stuff like this?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01A7BK7L8/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[bmd2k1]

The old orchard 5gal bucket is $59...needs to be refrigerated....info earlier in this thread.

 

[S-Met]

Do people really use stuff like this?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01A7BK7L8/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Did you see corn syrup was one of the ingredients! Only reason I've ever considered corn syrup was if I was making fuel or maybe shine.

 

[theinterneti]

Did you see corn syrup was one of the ingredients! Only reason I've ever considered corn syrup was if I was making fuel or maybe shine.

Yeah, and thats why I was questioning it. I've only been brewing since August and even I had instant reservations. Seems super strange to me that would be included in a product targeted directly at home vintners.

@bmd2k1 -- at that price you are looking at around .60/gallon for the diluted juice. Quite a savings compared to what I'm paying, ~$3/gallon! Looks like a pretty great deal compared against the 1 price I found in the links above.

 

[wasully]

Good eye! I didn't see the sorbate on the label. I guess "100% Apple Juice" means "100% plus a bunch of other crap"!

Has anyone found a cost effective source of bulk juice that doesn't require hauling home dozens of half-gallon plastic bottles? Trying to reduce the waste in our household

Some homebrew shops in apple country partner with orchards. Where they bring in a couple hundred gallons, and you can just fill up carboys there. Alternatively, some orchards will fill the carboys on site.

That's for next fall though. That ship has probably sailed already for this season.

 

[theinterneti]

Another angle -- reuse/upcycle the plastic bottles to eliminate bottle waste. A few ideas...

Bulk food containers
Fill with cement and build a raised bed
Fill with marbles/beads and use as a lamp base
Punch some holes in the top and use as a watering jug
Put a hose connector on the lid, punch holes in the side and use as a sprinkler
Fill with water and freeze to create a huge iceblock.
Store any goods that will work with the size of the mouth -- Starsan, paint, mixed varnish, sand, beach rocks, etc.
Cut open side, tie up, and fill with soil to create a vertical garden
Cut off top and fill with soil to create a potter/seedling starter (it can be covered easily with the top)

 

[bmd2k1]

head's up to FAJC users w/Meijer's by ya -- they have their cans of Old Orchard FAJC for $1 -- till 3/16.