Grainfather!!

[seabrew8]

Completed a light a Canadian Pale Ale for my first Grainfather run. The recipe predicted 23 liters but i only ended up with 20. The OG and FG were all with the style range so I'm a bit puzzled. Anyway, I couldn't hold off trying it after a few days on the gas and it was really good - even for being undercarbed! It's back on the gas for a few days and then getting ready for an Old Peculiar clone. This run will be done with a new Graincoat instead of the Reflectix jacket. I was disappointed that I couldn't pull it over the Reflectix but am happy with the form for sure. I think I'm going to really enjoy this all grain thing

Are you saying your final volume was supposed to be 23L? Thats off a nice bit... did you let the basket drain for a good while before you removed it? What about the amount that was left in the boiler? I started to pour it over a paint strainer bag in a pot and i usually end up with nearly exactly my calculated final wort volume.

 

[elreplica]

OMF! Went to kegerator and lost half my first keg of my Northern Light Pale Ale...so pissed off I had to have a beer before cleaning up a mess. Not sure if the post or picnic tap stuck at the moment. It's time for me to bite the bullet and get my taps on. Oh well, here's a look at my first nearly a total loss all grain...talk about a tear in a beer :-(View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1458496781.568420.jpg

 

[elreplica]

Yes SB...it was supposed to be 23L...now I've got 10L FFS...I'll pay more attention to the strain and drain the next time. It's really good beer though! A real thirst quencher...I'm hoping I can keep enough to fill a couple bombers with my Blichmann...

 

[MT2sum]

Sorry if you think I'm trying to fix something. My question is to you or anyone else in this thread, have you taken a temperature reading of the grain bed with a thermometer? This isn't rocket science as someone said earlier, but a very basic concept in brewing a batch of beer.

I mashed last Sunday for over 2 hours just so I could test the grain bed temp. With good amount of wort flowing down the overflow pipe, you will fall short of correct/maintaining mash temps.

I've been brewing all grain for over 10 years, this principle for all grain is about as basic as it gets. I'm not talking about being off the the target temp 1 or 2 degrees. I set the controller for a 149 degrees and started testing..........2 hours later the grain bed finally got to 147 from starting point of 138. The controller is fine, it reads 149 plus or minus a degree. The wort flowing out of the return arm is reading around 149 or so. Does nothing for you if it goes down the overflow pipe. I see the overflow pipe as the safety in the system if you step away from the system for a few minutes.

I'm gathering that Grain father users are gauging success on clear wort at the end.

Please don't take my comments/observations as threats to how the Grain Father works for you. I'm really trying to make what is a good product out of the box a great brewing system.

Sorry

Jamie

I recently noticed this in my BIAB using a turkey fryer, which is why I am considering the change to a GF. My grain-bed was in the 140's whilst the wort on the outside of the basket was 155/156F. I was thinking that the muslin bag is too thick to allow the transference of temperature in the liquid between the outside of the basket/bag and the inside of the basket/bag.

I'm assuming, (without trying to cause hate and discontent in this thread), that if the grains are not mashing at the proper temperature, that there are going to be unforeseen consequences, what they might be, I don't know, but I've been mashing for about 15-30 minutes longer in the hopes that that will make the difference.

I'd hate to go back to the nylon paint strainer as I am concerned about the fact that they are not food-grade.

I might be wrong in my assumptions, but I'm glad that Jamie has come up with the question so that I may be able to get some answers.

I'll keep following this thread and see if someone comes up with some better plan - but even if they don't I think Jamie has raised a valid point.

Just my two centavos ......

 

[TexasWine]

I recently noticed this in my BIAB using a turkey fryer, which is why I am considering the change to a GF. My grain-bed was in the 140's whilst the wort on the outside of the basket was 155/156F. I was thinking that the muslin bag is too thick to allow the transference of temperature in the liquid between the outside of the basket/bag and the inside of the basket/bag.

I'm assuming, (without trying to cause hate and discontent in this thread), that if the grains are not mashing at the proper temperature, that there are going to be unforeseen consequences, what they might be, I don't know, but I've been mashing for about 15-30 minutes longer in the hopes that that will make the difference.

I'd hate to go back to the nylon paint strainer as I am concerned about the fact that they are not food-grade.

I might be wrong in my assumptions, but I'm glad that Jamie has come up with the question so that I may be able to get some answers.

I'll keep following this thread and see if someone comes up with some better plan - but even if they don't I think Jamie has raised a valid point.

Just my two centavos ......

Not sure what kind of bag you're using, but I doubt that's the issue. I can say that I don't have that issue with my recirculating eBIAB. Just last night I was taking temperature readings in random spots in the grain bed. Very consistent temps all around. I also did not have the issue you describe with my simple stovetop BIAB approach.

I think the key is to dough in at a proper strike temperature so that when the temperatures equalize you're at the mash temp you want. From reading this thread it sounds like some folks get the water up to mash temp, dough in, the temperature drops, and then heat needs to be applied to get the temperature back to where it's supposed to be. And as we've seen, it can take a long time for that to happen.

 

[jschein]

Yes SB...it was supposed to be 23L...now I've got 10L FFS...I'll pay more attention to the strain and drain the next time. It's really good beer though! A real thirst quencher...I'm hoping I can keep enough to fill a couple bombers with my Blichmann...

Did you use the GF online water calculator? I have found it to be spot on.

 

[DC_Steve]

For those of you that had to contact support, which route did you go to contact them? My controller doesn't really work. I have to push the buttons in really far to get them to register. I have to use a pen or something small to push them in far enough to register and then they get stuck so I have to dig them out. I could probably live with it but for the price I don't think I should have to. I have another STC controller that I bought off eBay to wire up my fermentation fridge that works fine. This one definitely isn't right so I'd like them to swap it out. I emailed them on Friday and just tried calling them now but haven't been able to get through. Not getting impatient yet but would rather minimize the amount of time before I can start using this thing.

 

[Tang10]

I recently noticed this in my BIAB using a turkey fryer, which is why I am considering the change to a GF. My grain-bed was in the 140's whilst the wort on the outside of the basket was 155/156F. I was thinking that the muslin bag is too thick to allow the transference of temperature in the liquid between the outside of the basket/bag and the inside of the basket/bag.

I'm assuming, (without trying to cause hate and discontent in this thread), that if the grains are not mashing at the proper temperature, that there are going to be unforeseen consequences, what they might be, I don't know, but I've been mashing for about 15-30 minutes longer in the hopes that that will make the difference.

I'd hate to go back to the nylon paint strainer as I am concerned about the fact that they are not food-grade.

I might be wrong in my assumptions, but I'm glad that Jamie has come up with the question so that I may be able to get some answers.

I'll keep following this thread and see if someone comes up with some better plan - but even if they don't I think Jamie has raised a valid point.

Just my two centavos ......

I have brewed with the GF for about 12 batches now. The strike temp is super critical to get right. I would say at least shoot for about 10 to 12 degrees above desired set temp. If you dough in at desired mash temp, the grain bed will drop outside the range and it will be really tough to recover in the 60 to 75 min mash time. I've been running the temp probe in the mash tun for the last few batches. Its really a nice addition to help you make some changes if needed. I'll go to boil settings temporarily to increase the temp if needed.

It is a different machine to brew with, that I know. I have brewed for about 10 years in a simple cooler as a mash tun. This should not be that much different, but the mash cycle really has lots of factors that seem to change each time. A good steady flow in the grain bed is important. If its running down the pipe, its not changing the temperature in the mash tun much. Thats why the strike temperature is critical to nail at mash in. You want your starting point of the actual grain temperature to be close to set temp.

Jamie

 

[treacheroustexan]

OMF! Went to kegerator and lost half my first keg of my Northern Light Pale Ale...so pissed off I had to have a beer before cleaning up a mess. Not sure if the post or picnic tap stuck at the moment. It's time for me to bite the bullet and get my taps on. Oh well, here's a look at my first nearly a total loss all grain...talk about a tear in a beer :-(View attachment 345719

Dude same thing happened to me last night. Damn picnic taps.

 

[Eichler]

For those of you that had to contact support, which route did you go to contact them? My controller doesn't really work. I have to push the buttons in really far to get them to register. I have to use a pen or something small to push them in far enough to register and then they get stuck so I have to dig them out. I could probably live with it but for the price I don't think I should have to. I have another STC controller that I bought off eBay to wire up my fermentation fridge that works fine. This one definitely isn't right so I'd like them to swap it out. I emailed them on Friday and just tried calling them now but haven't been able to get through. Not getting impatient yet but would rather minimize the amount of time before I can start using this thing.

I've used email and Facebook and even called. Only Facebook has garnered a response. NZ hours and weekend backlog prob not a good setup.

 

[beerb2u]

I'm thinking of purchasing a GF to start on my home brewing. Do you just suggest it for a newbie? Are there other brand would you recommend?

 

[elreplica]

Did you use the GF online water calculator? I have found it to be spot on.

The company that prepared the recipe did...Noble Grape puts together "Grainkids" style recipes. That being said, there was a discrepancy between my calls using Sparge Pal, GF and Brewers Friend software. I'm thinking it might've been some things like sea brew suggested but thanks for the input.

 

[elreplica]

I'm thinking of purchasing a GF to start on my home brewing. Do you just suggest it for a newbie? Are there other brand would you recommend?

My thinking would be "yes" of course. It's reasonably priced and a relatively compact piece of kit. I would suggest some accessories however, ie - hop spider, Graincoat, GFCI for plug, etc. I've only used it once but see a lot of potential. My approach is to use some "built" tried and true recipes before I start customizing and cloning. I'm on my way however.

 

[DC_Steve]

I've used email and Facebook and even called. Only Facebook has garnered a response. NZ hours and weekend backlog prob not a good setup.

Thanks I'll try Facebook!

 

[HCbrewing]

I have brewed with the GF for about 12 batches now. The strike temp is super critical to get right. I would say at least shoot for about 10 to 12 degrees above desired set temp. If you dough in at desired mash temp, the grain bed will drop outside the range and it will be really tough to recover in the 60 to 75 min mash time. I've been running the temp probe in the mash tun for the last few batches. Its really a nice addition to help you make some changes if needed. I'll go to boil settings temporarily to increase the temp if needed.

It is a different machine to brew with, that I know. I have brewed for about 10 years in a simple cooler as a mash tun. This should not be that much different, but the mash cycle really has lots of factors that seem to change each time. A good steady flow in the grain bed is important. If its running down the pipe, its not changing the temperature in the mash tun much. Thats why the strike temperature is critical to nail at mash in. You want your starting point of the actual grain temperature to be close to set temp.

Jamie

Still don't understand the obsession with the grain temp vs the liquid temp. I have only done 2 batches on the Grainfather, but both times I set the controller at mash temp, doughed in slowly, it pretty well maintained temp, then ran the pump all the way open and of course some liquid went down the overflow tube initially. According to you, I may not have actually reached my target mash temp the entire hour I mashed, however I have exceeded my OG and nailed my FG on each batch. If this is as important as you claim, wouldn't I have ended up with 2 extremely dry beers because I mashed too low? Instead I got 2 beers that ended up right on target at 1.012. In other words it doesn't matter.

 

[TexasWine]

In other words it doesn't matter.

I'd argue that it does matter, if only for consistency between batches.

Say the temperature of the unmashed grains were 20F cooler between one batch and another because you had stored them in your frigid garage as opposed to indoors. You proceed with your mash as normal on the second batch, setting the strike temp equal to mash temp. But what happens in this second batch scenario is that your effective mash temp is much lower than the first.

I would wager that the second beer comes out significantly different than the first. Not saying it would be bad, just different. And I think we can say this with a great deal of certainty because it is a fact that widely different mash temps do impact conversion and attenuation.

To achieve consistency I adjust my strike temp depending on the grain temp. This temp is always higher than the desired rest temp of the mash. Hitting the same mash temps each time is necessary to achieve consistency

If you're certain it doesn't matter, next time you brew try repeating one of your first two brews. But this time store your grains in a freezer overnight and then mash them while they're cold. Report back if you do!

 

[seabrew8]

I'm thinking of purchasing a GF to start on my home brewing. Do you just suggest it for a newbie? Are there other brand would you recommend?

Its a simple system to use. Don't get intimidated with all the stuff being said here. We homebrewers just have OCD.

 

[Yambor44]

I still don't understand how the grain bed is that much cooler. Once you start the pump, the wort from the grain bed is drawn down past the temp probe. The readout drops slightly (3-4 IME) and then within 5-7 mins (IME) it rises back to set temp and then swings a few degrees either way during the mash. If the grain bed is 10-12 cooler, wouldn't the wort coming out of it be 10-12 degrees cooler as well?

 

[seabrew8]

I still don't understand how the grain bed is that much cooler. Once you start the pump, the wort from the grain bed is drawn down past the temp probe. The readout drops slightly (3-4 IME) and then within 5-7 mins (IME) it rises back to set temp and then swings a few degrees either way during the mash. If the grain bed is 10-12 cooler, wouldn't the wort coming out of it be 10-12 degrees cooler as well?

I guess the most important thing is the wort temp not the actual bed.

Either way, after 11 brews i think now none of my beer have been "thin". And only one was less then %70 brewhouse efficiency. Numbers don't lie has they say.

 

[Yambor44]

I guess the most important thing is the wort temp not the actual bed.

Either way, after 11 brews i think now none of my beer have been "thin". And only one was less then %70 brewhouse efficiency. Numbers don't lie has they say.

Exactly my point.

 

[gspot]

Deja vu

 

[Tang10]

I still don't understand how the grain bed is that much cooler. Once you start the pump, the wort from the grain bed is drawn down past the temp probe. The readout drops slightly (3-4 IME) and then within 5-7 mins (IME) it rises back to set temp and then swings a few degrees either way during the mash. If the grain bed is 10-12 cooler, wouldn't the wort coming out of it be 10-12 degrees cooler as well?

Is a portion of your return wort going down the over flow? If so, you answered your question.

What's your past brewing experience? Don't take this as a insult. Just trying to understand why the mash discussion becomes a sort of a sore spot with some folks.

Lot of books written about the science of mashing. This thread is challenging a few good author's.

I'm trying to educate you that I have ran a calibrated temp probe in the mash tun, and it's tough to change the temp if your off. Give it a try before you state facts about something you haven't tried.

 

[RockyMountainCraftBrewing]

I'm thinking of purchasing a GF to start on my home brewing. Do you just suggest it for a newbie? Are there other brand would you recommend?

As a newbie to craft brewing you could not ask for a more user friendly piece of kit than the Grainfather.You get to jump right into all grain brewing and get the benefit of semi-automation.The Braumeister is easier but it is also far more expensive and does not come with a wicked counter flow chiller.

I got into craft brewing just over 2 years ago on a whim.My father made his own beer(extract brewing) and I decided to take up the hobby and jump right into the deep end of the pool and go straight to all grain.I bought a couple of coolers at Wal-Mart and a bunch of stuff from Home Depot and built my mash tun/HLT as well as a sparge arm and also an 8 gallon kettle.My first 2 experiments were not so good but by the third try I had it down pat and without all the fuss/pickyness that some people prattle on about like grain bed temperature etc.All told I spent close to $500 to build a 3 vessel system that used gravity drainage.If I could have bought a Grainfather for twice as much I would have done so without a doubt.

The Grainfather is pretty much the easiest most economic option for craft brewing.It works out of the box with no need of a 220 power source.

If you want to get into craft brewing all grain ales/lagers and like simplicity with wicked results that are repeatable(or if you like the Robot Chicken brewing method like I do) the Grainfather is your best bet for functionality/price/space foot print.

RMCB

 

[Eichler]

My thinking would be "yes" of course. It's reasonably priced and a relatively compact piece of kit. I would suggest some accessories however, ie - hop spider, Graincoat, GFCI for plug, etc. I've only used it once but see a lot of potential. My approach is to use some "built" tried and true recipes before I start customizing and cloning. I'm on my way however.

100% agree with elreplica here.

I'm impressed by the kit but it's not perfect and you need to study up and read on brewing, mashing, process and chemistry involved. Not worth getting overwhelmed as you'll learn but all grain is more work and IMO more fun.

The hop spider is important I've learned and a bag will only get you so far. Reflectix and a water boiler are good to have too.

I'm using tried and true clone recipes to get my efficiency, consistency, and final product on point.

 

[Kampenken]

I agree with the above, buy the GF. Simplicity and repeatability are two top draws. Any BIAB system will require some kind of pulley mechanism and reading here on the grain temp in those bags is interesting too, but as noted its likely due to strike temp v mash temp.

I am in the camp of desiring to control my grain bed temp. Jamie's interest in this and his test is certainly though provoking. I have a corded oven thermometer (one like Jamie posted, used thru oven door) and will calibrate. Not sure, but possibly temp probe at the bottom, near heat source, around small volume of wort, should not be the temp goal, but rather the grain bed temp. When I mashed in a cooler tun this was exactly what I measured, so why measure the vourlauf temp? Regardless of OG & FG developed there is value and may lead to differences in higher eff? Not that eff is the goal, nor that an end result that is repeatable and enjoyable is to be dismissed, just for me, I'm very interested in the grain bed temp. One more thing to review and dial in. All in the name of consistency. This is why we mash at specific temps.

 

[HCbrewing]

Is a portion of your return wort going down the over flow? If so, you answered your question.

What's your past brewing experience? Don't take this as a insult. Just trying to understand why the mash discussion becomes a sort of a sore spot with some folks.

Lot of books written about the science of mashing. This thread is challenging a few good author's.

I'm trying to educate you that I have ran a calibrated temp probe in the mash tun, and it's tough to change the temp if your off. Give it a try before you state facts about something you haven't tried.

No one is doubting your data, it's the importance of it they are doubting. If I set the temp controller to 152 and get the same results as when I used a cooler and mashed at 152, why do I care what the actual grain temperature is? All we are saying is anecdotally it appears the liquid temp is the more important factor and the Grainfather directly measures that. Why change the way the manufacturer recommends to use the equipment when it works flawlessly? Don't you think they tested it? If grain bed temp is so important, and my method is fatally flawed, why do I nail my predicted final gravity?

 

[Tang10]

No one is doubting your data, it's the importance of it they are doubting. If I set the temp controller to 152 and get the same results as when I used a cooler and mashed at 152, why do I care what the actual grain temperature is? All we are saying is anecdotally it appears the liquid temp is the more important factor and the Grainfather directly measures that. Why change the way the manufacturer recommends to use the equipment when it works flawlessly? Don't you think they tested it? If grain bed temp is so important, and my method is fatally flawed, why do I nail my predicted final gravity?

Are you really asking why we care what the grain bed temp is?

The GF does not need to be a religious thing, just to believe because the company says. We can test it to prove if it works the way the science of the hobby says it should.

Why do you feel threatened to discuss this topic? I'm not saying it's junk. Just looking to improve an already good system. Kind of hoping for guys to provide some input of their experiences.

Maybe a new thread would help?

 

[d-bone]

I'm thinking of purchasing a GF to start on my home brewing. Do you just suggest it for a newbie? Are there other brand would you recommend?

Newbie to all grain or brewing in general? For me, I just said f it and dropped the money. 900 is a lot for me but i also brew almost every week, and had to go electric to brew in my basement, and have a pretty considerable size restraint on how much room I have for brewing. GF was the perfect solution for this. I had brewed all grain many times before, but this was my first presonal all grain setup, and I have no regrets, although I am trying to figure out what to do about this grain bill limit.





I would like to hear what other people are doing about the 20lb grain limit. the most I have done is 18 lbs and I thought that was pushing it.

 

[d-bone]

also, kind OT but seriously, I find it hard to believe that no one during the designing process thought of putting handles on this. or casters. I have a flat trash can dolly that I use, and now I couldn't brew without it.

 

[TexasWine]

No one is doubting your data, it's the importance of it they are doubting. If I set the temp controller to 152 and get the same results as when I used a cooler and mashed at 152, why do I care what the actual grain temperature is? All we are saying is anecdotally it appears the liquid temp is the more important factor and the Grainfather directly measures that. Why change the way the manufacturer recommends to use the equipment when it works flawlessly? Don't you think they tested it? If grain bed temp is so important, and my method is fatally flawed, why do I nail my predicted final gravity?

Again, it is important for consistency. What you're saying is that you can get the same results regardless of mash temp. I'll ask again, repeat one of the two brews you've made on this system, only put your grain in the freezer overnight and mash them while they're cold. I'm confident your beer will be different.

Are you really asking why we care what the grain bed temp is?

The GF does not need to be a religious thing, just to believe because the company says. We can test it to prove if it works the way the science of the hobby says it should.

Why do you feel threatened to discuss this topic? I'm not saying it's junk. Just looking to improve an already good system. Kind of hoping for guys to provide some input of their experiences.

Maybe a new thread would help?

There's some good discussion happening here with relevant contributions from a variety of folks, but a new thread might be beneficial to poll a larger audience that doesn't have emotional ties to their purchase and consequently feel a need to defend it. Sometimes emotions can get in the way of logic.

Maybe start one in the BIAB forum as that's essentially what the GF is? Several of us have recirculating eBIAB systems that are functionally the same.

BTW, for some reason this discussion reminds me of Dan Ariely's book Predictably Irrational. We are all irrational, but predictably so.