Grainfather!!

[RedlegEd]

Hi

Whatever works best for you honestly. I hear everything apart and clean separate because I clean as I go instead of waiting until the end. It makes it a lot easier at the end of the day.

+1^^^ this. Makes your brew day go quicker if you clean as you go and you are done with each piece. I also save the first 5 gals of hot water from the CFC, add Oxyclean/PBW and use it as clean up water for the boil kettle and CFC at the end of my brew.

Received my GF last friday and I'm ready to do the 1st cleaning, But first, thank you to all the brewers who contributed to that very useful thread.
It is not clear to me: do I clean the GF with the inner basket and the flow pipe installed or do I clean them separately ?
Jacques
P.S. I had some tears in my eyes when I retired my faithful 25 years old three tier system and stored it in my locker

Hi Jacques,
Welcome to the forum and the GF thread. If you are talking about the very first cleaning, yes, put it completely together and run it with PBW/Oxyclean, to include the CFC (don't worry about the cooling side, just the how wort side.) Recirculate for the time and temp recommended by GF. It's also a good time to check fittings and connections for leaks and/or problems so you don't run into the issue @Hop described in a previous post about the CFC being clogged. Make sure you rinse and dry it thoroughly. Let it sit upside down for a day or so to ensure the pump is completely drained. Enjoy your new toy and I hope this helps. Ed

 

[Hop]

Okay, in the interest of figuring out what went wrong, I spent a couple of hours yesterday and today trying to diagnose the problem.

It appears to be related to the pump, not the wort chiller. The reason I did not experience issues while cleaning the unit before the first brew is because I only brought the water up to 131 °F for the PBW. The reason I didn't experience issues will become a little clearer shortly.

I have two main issues with the Grainfather unit thus far.

1) I have considerable difficulty holding it at boiling temperature. As you can see in the longest of the videos (to be linked at the end of this message), with just 2 gallons of plain water, it was only hitting 209-211 at most. I am at sea level in California, and 212 °F is the boiling point. You can see that a non-trivial portion of the heating element ring at the bottom of the kettle is producing no bubbles (~40%), so it might be faulty. Can anyone confirm whether your heating element produces a full ring of bubbles?

2) I noted in my previous message that I was unable to pump wort through the counterflow chiller at the end of my first brew day, but was able to pump water (both clean and with PBW) through it without issue while cleaning.

Out of curiosity, I decided to go all the way up to a full boil again with just water to see if I could reproduce the issue.

It seems that as soon as the temperature gets to ~180 °F, the pump simply will not push water through the counterflow chiller. In fact, it doesn't matter what's hooked up at this point. It just makes sad noises regardless of what's connected.

Just to be certain it wasn't power related, I tried two different sets of outlets (different circuits) inside with my GFCI adapter, and today tried it outside on the dedicated circuit with GFCI integrated. It's the same story on all counts.

Okay, on to the videos:

Grainfather: Maximum Flow Rate

This is the maximum flow rate of water going through the counterflow chiller at lower temperatures. This is just to check to see whether this is the expected flow rate.

Grainfather: Will Not Pump at High Temp / Heating Element Broken?

Here, you can see that I can't get the pump to flow wort through the chiller at high temperatures (it seems like it will not work above ~180 °F). You can also see that the heating element is not producing bubbles across ~40% of the circumference of the bottom.

 

[treacheroustexan]

Okay, in the interest of figuring out what went wrong, I spent a couple of hours yesterday and today trying to diagnose the problem.

It appears to be related to the pump, not the wort chiller. The reason I did not experience issues while cleaning the unit before the first brew is because I only brought the water up to 131 °F for the PBW. The reason I didn't experience issues will become a little clearer shortly.

I have two main issues with the Grainfather unit thus far.

1) I have considerable difficulty holding it at boiling temperature. As you can see in the longest of the videos (to be linked at the end of this message), with just 2 gallons of plain water, it was only hitting 209-211 at most. I am at sea level in California, and 212 °F is the boiling point. You can see that a non-trivial portion of the heating element ring at the bottom of the kettle is producing no bubbles (~40%), so it might be faulty. Can anyone confirm whether your heating element produces a full ring of bubbles?

2) I noted in my previous message that I was unable to pump wort through the counterflow chiller at the end of my first brew day, but was able to pump water (both clean and with PBW) through it without issue while cleaning.

Out of curiosity, I decided to go all the way up to a full boil again with just water to see if I could reproduce the issue.

It seems that as soon as the temperature gets to ~180 °F, the pump simply will not push water through the counterflow chiller. In fact, it doesn't matter what's hooked up at this point. It just makes sad noises regardless of what's connected.

Just to be certain it wasn't power related, I tried two different sets of outlets (different circuits) inside with my GFCI adapter, and today tried it outside on the dedicated circuit with GFCI integrated. It's the same story on all counts.

Okay, on to the videos:

Grainfather: Maximum Flow Rate

This is the maximum flow rate of water going through the counterflow chiller at lower temperatures. This is just to check to see whether this is the expected flow rate.

Grainfather: Will Not Pump at High Temp / Heating Element Broken?

Here, you can see that I can't get the pump to flow wort through the chiller at high temperatures (it seems like it will not work above ~180 °F). You can also see that the heating element is not producing bubbles across ~40% of the circumference of the bottom.

I'm not gonna lie I'm a few brews in and didn't read your whole post, bit when I had to my pump replaced I had the same issue. Something happened with the pump and a piece expanded inside when it got too hot and wouldn't allow anything through. You should contact GF directly and they will send you a new pump.

 

[Hop]

Thanks, @treacheroustexan! I actually just remembered that I have an original Grainfather Control Box in addition to the Connect, so I tried the same little experiment with that one.

If I let the water boil for a few minutes, the pump will not work anymore. 100% sure now that the pump is my main issue. Thanks for the confirmation that you had the same problem.

I am still curious whether this is the boil ring everyone else gets. I would expect it to bubble in a full circle:

(EDIT: Normal as confirmed by several people on Facebook)

 

[eimar]

Thank you for the cleaning info. It makes sense when cleaning for the first time to clean everything with PBW ,including the parts that contact the wort during the hot side process. After cleaning I'll boil some water and send it through the counterflow chiller tu simulate a real brewing session.

Jacques

 

[José Carlos Vilches Peña]

Hello everyone!

I just joined this forum, a large knowledge store. I hope to share with everyone what I learn.

I apologize for my bad English, I write from Spain and I do not know much about your language.

I have a Grainfather with the new control box, I've already made three beers and I'm very happy with the machine.

I just have something that is very difficult for me: placing the bottom perforated plate with the silicone gasket in place is a real feat
I have read the first 25 pages of this forum (there are 95 ...) and I see that many people complain about the same thing. Even a person says he does not take it between one elaboration and another ...

So ... why not leave it permanently fixed, if it really does not help to remove it? I'm thinking of giving it some stainless welding points, or maybe a whole weld bead around it ... without the silicone gasket, of course.

Is it a correct idea? Can there be a problem with making that weld? I will greatly appreciate your opinion, thanks in advance!

Best regards

José Carlos, from Spain

 

[hedgie57]

I spray inside the grain basket with star San and the plate slides down pretty easily

 

[alestateyall]

Hello everyone!

I just joined this forum, a large knowledge store. I hope to share with everyone what I learn.

I apologize for my bad English, I write from Spain and I do not know much about your language.

I have a Grainfather with the new control box, I've already made three beers and I'm very happy with the machine.

I just have something that is very difficult for me: placing the bottom perforated plate with the silicone gasket in place is a real feat
I have read the first 25 pages of this forum (there are 95 ...) and I see that many people complain about the same thing. Even a person says he does not take it between one elaboration and another ...

So ... why not leave it permanently fixed, if it really does not help to remove it? I'm thinking of giving it some stainless welding points, or maybe a whole weld bead around it ... without the silicone gasket, of course.

Is it a correct idea? Can there be a problem with making that weld? I will greatly appreciate your opinion, thanks in advance!

Best regards

José Carlos, from Spain

You can heat the malt pipe without perforated plate. Just before mash pull out the malt pipe and insert the perforated plate and gasket. The malt pipe will expand enough to make the process much easier from the heat.

You can also spray the silicone with starsan and insert cold. That works really well.

You can also use grain dust as a lubricant.

I also saw someone spray water on the plate while inserting. It went right in.

The Grainfather Facebook group has many solutions.

 

[alestateyall]

Thanks, @treacheroustexan! I actually just remembered that I have an original Grainfather Control Box in addition to the Connect, so I tried the same little experiment with that one.

If I let the water boil for a few minutes, the pump will not work anymore. 100% sure now that the pump is my main issue. Thanks for the confirmation that you had the same problem.

I am still curious whether this is the boil ring everyone else gets. I would expect it to bubble in a full circle:

View attachment 575520

I don’t have a picture of my boil ring, but, the heating element doesn’t make a full circle.

Here is an example pic:
https://goo.gl/images/GB8EDe

The pic is not Grainfather. But it is similar. I could find a good Grainfather pic.

 

[eimar]

Thinking about it, why do we have to remove the bottom perforated plate for cleaning the inner basket ?

 

[RedlegEd]

Hello everyone!

I just joined this forum, a large knowledge store. I hope to share with everyone what I learn.

I apologize for my bad English, I write from Spain and I do not know much about your language.

I have a Grainfather with the new control box, I've already made three beers and I'm very happy with the machine.

I just have something that is very difficult for me: placing the bottom perforated plate with the silicone gasket in place is a real feat
I have read the first 25 pages of this forum (there are 95 ...) and I see that many people complain about the same thing. Even a person says he does not take it between one elaboration and another ...

So ... why not leave it permanently fixed, if it really does not help to remove it? I'm thinking of giving it some stainless welding points, or maybe a whole weld bead around it ... without the silicone gasket, of course.

Is it a correct idea? Can there be a problem with making that weld? I will greatly appreciate your opinion, thanks in advance!

Best regards

José Carlos, from Spain

José Carlos,
Welcome to the forum! Your English is excellent, so don't let that stop you from participating and asking questions. As others have already stated, it's best to insert the bottom perforated plate with gasket after you have wet the inside of the grain pipe. I would not recommend welding the plate. Once you get used to putting it together and slipping it down when wet, you'll see it is not hard. Another "trick" is to keep the plate vertical until it is almost at the bottom, then, slowly tip it into the horizontal position and finish pushing it down. Again, welcome! Ed


Edit to add: By the way, I do not screw the overflow pipe into the bottom plate until after I install it.

 

[RedlegEd]

Thinking about it, why do we have to remove the bottom perforated plate for cleaning the inner basket ?

Jacques,
If you leave it in there, I can almost guarantee you will get little nasties starting to grow. Part of the cleaning process for the GF is to remove the silicon rings from the perf plates (both upper and lower) and clean inside the groove with a toothbrush or some other type of brush, rinse, then let them dry. Remember that the grainpipe, filter plates, silicone rings, and overflow pipe do not get boiled, so they get covered in the wonderful, sweet, sticky, sugary wort from the mash and must be thoroughly cleaned after each use. Probably not what you wanted to hear, but I hope this helps. Ed

 

[José Carlos Vilches Peña]

I spray inside the grain basket with star San and the plate slides down pretty easily

Thanks for your help, but I've tried it again and again and it's not going well. Possibly the basket is not perfectly circular and the perforated plate either. The two things together make it difficult for me to maneuver.
It is a design point of the G.G. poorly resolved, in my opinion.
Best regards
JC, from Spain

 

[José Carlos Vilches Peña]

You can heat the malt pipe without perforated plate. Just before mash pull out the malt pipe and insert the perforated plate and gasket. The malt pipe will expand enough to make the process much easier from the heat.

You can also spray the silicone with starsan and insert cold. That works really well.

You can also use grain dust as a lubricant.

I also saw someone spray water on the plate while inserting. It went right in.

The Grainfather Facebook group has many solutions.

Thanks for your help, but I've tried all of that and sometimes it works, sometimes not. It does not make sense to live pending hardware, so I think I'll fix it, it does not help that it's removable.
It is a design point of the G.G. poorly resolved, in my opinion.
Best regards
JC

 

[jschein]

Hello everyone!

I just joined this forum, a large knowledge store. I hope to share with everyone what I learn.

I apologize for my bad English, I write from Spain and I do not know much about your language.

I have a Grainfather with the new control box, I've already made three beers and I'm very happy with the machine.

I just have something that is very difficult for me: placing the bottom perforated plate with the silicone gasket in place is a real feat
I have read the first 25 pages of this forum (there are 95 ...) and I see that many people complain about the same thing. Even a person says he does not take it between one elaboration and another ...

So ... why not leave it permanently fixed, if it really does not help to remove it? I'm thinking of giving it some stainless welding points, or maybe a whole weld bead around it ... without the silicone gasket, of course.

Is it a correct idea? Can there be a problem with making that weld? I will greatly appreciate your opinion, thanks in advance!

Best regards

José Carlos, from Spain

Welcome and your English is perfect. Dip the basket in your mash water and do the same with the ring, it slides in easy.

 

[José Carlos Vilches Peña]

I don’t have a picture of my boil ring, but, the heating element doesn’t make a full circle.

Thank you for your help ... certainly, I think that may be the problem, the lack of accuracy in the circumference. And really, what good is it to be removable?
It is a design point of the G.G. poorly resolved, in my opinion.
Best regards
JC

 

[José Carlos Vilches Peña]

Thinking about it, why do we have to remove the bottom perforated plate for cleaning the inner basket ?

That's the question I ask myself ... and my answer, unless you tell me something else is "not at all", it would be better if the perforated plate with the grain basket came together, as other systems have done previously to filter the mash.
Best regards.
JC

 

[Minky]

Thanks, @treacheroustexan! I actually just remembered that I have an original Grainfather Control Box in addition to the Connect, so I tried the same little experiment with that one.

If I let the water boil for a few minutes, the pump will not work anymore. 100% sure now that the pump is my main issue. Thanks for the confirmation that you had the same problem.

View attachment 575520

Hi Hop,
Don't give up on the pump just yet. I have problems getting boiling wort to move also. This is what I do to make it work. Start the pump with the red valve in the closed position. Gradually open it up a little at a time. It seems to need the resistance to build enough pressure to fill the pipe. You should soon begin to see a small stream coming out of the end of the hose. Open a little more and the stream should get larger. You should then be able to open the valve the whole way.

If it doesn't work right the first time, you probably have air in the pump so, leaving the valve open, turn the pump off. The trapped air should bubble up and out through wort. Close the valve and start over.

I had the same problem with a Steelhead pump when trying to move hot water.

 

[eimar]

Jacques,
If you leave it in there, I can almost guarantee you will get little nasties starting to grow. Part of the cleaning process for the GF is to remove the silicon rings from the perf plates (both upper and lower) and clean inside the groove with a toothbrush or some other type of brush, rinse, then let them dry. Remember that the grainpipe, filter plates, silicone rings, and overflow pipe do not get boiled, so they get covered in the wonderful, sweet, sticky, sugary wort from the mash and must be thoroughly cleaned after each use. Probably not what you wanted to hear, but I hope this helps. Ed

I see, that makes sense. Thank's Ed

Jacques

 

[RedlegEd]

Hello everyone!

I just have something that is very difficult for me: placing the bottom perforated plate with the silicone gasket in place is a real feat
I have read the first 25 pages of this forum (there are 95 ...) and I see that many people complain about the same thing. Even a person says he does not take it between one elaboration and another ...

José Carlos, I neglected to say in my previous response to make inserting the bottom plate easier. Do not attach the overflow pipe until the plate is installed. That way, you can insert it vertically until almost at the bottom, then carefully flip to horizontal and push down, then screw on the overflow pipe. I do not recommend welding the bottom plate to the grain pipe. I think that would be a big mistake, and you will find it will be very difficult to clean well. Ed

 

[Hop]

Hi Hop,
Don't give up on the pump just yet. I have problems getting boiling wort to move also. This is what I do to make it work. Start the pump with the red valve in the closed position. Gradually open it up a little at a time. It seems to need the resistance to build enough pressure to fill the pipe. You should soon begin to see a small stream coming out of the end of the hose. Open a little more and the stream should get larger. You should then be able to open the valve the whole way.

If it doesn't work right the first time, you probably have air in the pump so, leaving the valve open, turn the pump off. The trapped air should bubble up and out through wort. Close the valve and start over.

I had the same problem with a Steelhead pump when trying to move hot water.

Tried those from the standard bag of tricks I've seen around. It's 100% consistent that it won't pump at all once I've reached a boil for a minute or two.

The only fix after that point is to wait for it to cool quite a bit (Usually to around 180 °F), at which point it will work again.

Stuff I've tried:

- Valve closed
- Valve fully open
- Valve in various states of closed
- Wort chiller connected
- Recirculation arm connected
- Valve open with just the ball and spring in place
- All combinations above with and without the ball and spring
- Bicycle/ball pump to push air and liquid back
- Reconnecting the chiller while the pump was on (with brewing gloves to not get burned)
- Switching the pump on and off repeatedly
- Tried the old controller and Connect controller
- Tried 3 different circuits in the house

Probably a few things I'm missing. The long and short of it is that the pump makes terrible noises when it's hot and pumps nothing out.

I did try the valve closed to start pump trick at lower temperatures and that definitely helps get things going.

 

[Hop]

Update on my Grainfather pump woes: Grainfather is sending me a replacement pump. Great customer service!

 

[José Carlos Vilches Peña]

Thank you very much for your reply...

José Carlos,
Welcome to the forum! Your English is excellent, so don't let that stop you from participating and asking questions.

Thank you very much for your welcome ...
My English is essentially due to St. Google's automatic translator, not to my language skills

I would not recommend welding the plate.

I would very much like to know if you think there may be a problem with making that solder to fix the plate and definitively end up with an unsuitable design aspect ...

Again, welcome! Ed

Again, thanks

Edit to add: By the way, I do not screw the overflow pipe into the bottom plate until after I install it.

I have tried it in every way, with the tube and without the tube, wet and dry, vertical and horizontal, inclined and not inclined, praying and without praying, ... and nothing, I am a little clumsy imagine.

Best regards,
JC

 

[José Carlos Vilches Peña]

Thank you very much for your reply...

Jacques, If you leave it in there, I can almost guarantee you will get little nasties starting to grow. Part of the cleaning process for the GF is to remove the silicon rings from the perf plates (both upper and lower) and clean inside the groove with a toothbrush or some other type of brush, rinse, then let them dry.

OK, but if I finish welding the perforated plate I will do it without the silicone gasket, so that corner that can collect dirt disappears ... the basket and the plate become a single metal piece, easy to clean in the normal process of cleaning the GF

I hope I'm not wrong!

Best regards

JC

 

[José Carlos Vilches Peña]

Thank you very much for your reply...

Welcome and your English is perfect.

Thanks and thanks

Dip the basket in your mash water and do the same with the ring, it slides in easy.

My perforated plate has a very temperamental character and there is no way to put it in place easily. I guess I'm a bit clumsy :-(

Best regards

José Carlos

 

[José Carlos Vilches Peña]

I do not recommend welding the bottom plate to the grain pipe. I think that would be a big mistake, and you will find it will be very difficult to clean well. Ed

Thank you very much for your reply...

If the only problem is cleaning, I think the simplest and most effective is to leave the grain basket with the welded plate inside the G.F. for a while when at the end of the process the general cleaning of the whole equipment is done. The recirculation of hot water with GFHPC (Grainfather High Perfomance Cleaner) and the subsequent recirculation of clean water to make the rinse I think will clean the plate sufficiently well, as it does with the rest of the equipment. (Take into account that the silicone gasket will not be in place, the refuge of contamination) I hope I'm not wrong!

If there is any other problem -which I can not imagine which one it may be- by making that union basket + plate, we can continue talking here to try to solve it ...

Best regards

JC

 

[José Carlos Vilches Peña]

Hello!

Since there have been no further comments on this topic, my final decision has been the one that can be seen here:

http://www.jvilchesp.es/aficiones/cerveza/cerv_07/gf_04/index.html#detalle6

I hope I was not wrong!

Best regards,

JC, from Spain

 

[RedlegEd]

José Carlos,
Sorry for not responding. I was caught up in some other things. That link proved very informative. Is this your Grainfather? Whomever did the spot welds did a nice job. I still believe this is not the best option, but I am certainly open to learning. Please let us know how it turns out. Ed

 

[Hop]

I recieved my replacement and will be off to the races tomorrow with a Belgian Pale Ale.

My Grainfather Conical with cooling kit arrived as well, so I'll be fermenting in that for the first time.

I put together a setup using my chest freezer, a bucket of water for the pump, and a wort chiller to cool the return water.

While talking to someone at work about the setup, he offered me his old glycol chiller at a good price so I jumped on it.

I contacted Grainfather and they advised against anything more than 5% propylene glycol with the standard pump.

Now I'm trying to find a decent 12VDC pump to immerse in the glycol. Or, a motorized ball valve so I can use the chiller's own pump.

Any suggestions? Later this year I'll grab the Grainfather Glycol Chiller if it becomes available in the US, but this will serve in the interim.

For brew day one, I'll go with the 5% solution and should be perfectly fine except perhaps when it's time to cold crash.

My initial solution can be seen here: http://www.madalchemist.com/archives/the-grainfather-conical-cooling-setup/

 

[José Carlos Vilches Peña]

Hello everyone!

José Carlos, Sorry for not responding. I was caught up in some other things.

There is no problem, life has many interesting things

That link proved very informative.

I have updated it with two more details if you are interested in seeing it:

http://www.jvilchesp.es/aficiones/cerveza/cerv_07/gf_04/index.html

And there are more things about G.F. here:

http://www.jvilchesp.es/aficiones/cerveza/cerv_07/index.html

Is this your Grainfather?

Yes, it's mine, bought two months ago

Whomever did the spot welds did a nice job.

Thanks, I did it with the help of the blacksmith of my small town and his machine

I still believe this is not the best option, but I am certainly open to learning. Please let us know how it turns out. Ed

Time will tell us, sure. And if there is something special I will tell you right here, for sure.

Best regards

JC, from Spain