Graff (Malty, slightly hopped cider)

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OK, I just finished all 101 pages of this thread. WOW !!! I was going through my freezer and found that I have 3 gallons of fresh pressed cider I made last fall, and put in plastic milk jugs and froze. I am thinking of getting another gallon and splitting it into two different batches. That way I can make two slightly different versions to see which one I like the best.
 
Ok, so my FG was WAY higher than expected. I finished at 1.020, and started at 1.060. My LHBS was out of Nottingham, so i had to use Danstar Windsor. Has anyone else had an issue with this yeast? I also used local cider, which had 0.01% potassium sorbate... so maybe this was the problem.

Any thoughts?
 
Hey there Klyph... you make a good point. I have indeed tasted it (how could I not?!). Because I used locally pressed cider, I need to be patient while the pectins drop out, as they are contributing quite a bit of tartness to the final product. I added some pectic enzyme about 12 hrs before fermentation, and have been getting gradual clarification over the past 3 weeks, so I am not too worried. The sweetness is there, but its covered up by the astringency of the pectin...
 
jameshig said:
I tried to read through the entire thread, but there are 100 pages.
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Read through the entire thread. It took me a few days to read ti all but I picked up some little tidbits that applied to how I do things. Never know, you may pick up a tip or two.
 
jar234psu said:
Ok, so my FG was WAY higher than expected. I finished at 1.020, and started at 1.060. My LHBS was out of Nottingham, so i had to use Danstar Windsor. Has anyone else had an issue with this yeast? I also used local cider, which had 0.01% potassium sorbate... so maybe this was the problem.

Any thoughts?
Click to expand...


Well.. Windsor is known for leaving a relatively high gravity and sorbate is one of those additives you DO NOT WANT in a fermentation. Sorbate will not kill yeast, but will prevent them from multiplying. It is used to stabilize wine after all fermentation is done. IF being used to STOP fermentation, it is usually used WITH Sulfite, which will kill yeast. Sorbate added alone to an active fermentation can lead to off flavors (geranium flavor).

Sounds like a 1.020 might have been more due to the Windsor yeast than the sorbate, though. IF it tastes OK, then you should be fine.
 
I made a batch of this and it has been in the bottle for about 5 weeks now. Gave a sample to my neighbors and they absolutely loved it.

I am going to have to ration this batch till I can get more made up.
 
This sounded so good and quick and easy I had to run to the home brew store today and get supplies. Going by the op recipe except with 90L and carapils. Hopefully it'll be ready to drink by thanksgiving :)

I told myself I'm not brewing any more beer until next week when I finish my mlt so I can do my first ag batch. Luckily, graff isn't beer :)
 
FenoMeno said:
I got an OG of 1.050. Any suggestions on what the FG "should be"? Secondary/Shock/Age, or age in bottles?
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I just bottled a batch, fermented on Pacman.
OG 1.056
FG 1.010

It's young, but so far I like the batch I did with 1450 better. I think it finished around 1.015 or 1.018, I don't recall and didn't record that batch, unfortunately.
 
hello there folks, my name is bootsty-flanootsy, I am a long time peruser of this board, first time poster.

I have brewed this here Graff a few times, with a few personal tweeks, mostly to great success. I tell people it's an Apple Ale, and that seems to work best.

HOWEVER, what brought me here today was this...

I screwed up. When I bought my specialty grains I bought a pound each. When the LHBS attendant asked me how I would like the grains milled, I stupidly said to just go ahead and grind them all together. So yeah, there was a TON of torrified wheat up in that there graff. Needless to say, the ferment was super intense. the blow off tube was going crazy for damned near a whole week. I wound up using the Wyeast 1469-PC West Yorkshire Ale as I thought it would be a nice choice.

So I am guessing that this is going to be some seriously hazy, if not murky looking stuff due to the high amount of wheat.

Also, anyone have any thoughts on how my mistake may alter the flavor profile?


Thanks for any and all input on this.

I'm sure I'll drink it no matter what, but, just thought it'd be fun to get some input on it to compare it to once it's actually ready to drink.
 
I made this a couple of weeks ago.. I used a whole pound of crystal 60 however, everything else the same ( did this because I used cheap apple juice) Anyway OG was 1.060, and it is setting at 1.012 right now. I transferred to a bright tank and popped it into cold crash. Now I am wondering if I jumped the gun on cold crashing, but I don't think it will go any lower with nottingham .
 
From my understanding the torrified wheat is just for head retention and doesn't do anything to the flavor. You will probably just have really thick head. If you are worried it will be cloudy use some gelatin or other clearing agent on it.
 
thanks akthor.

though, I can't help but feel it will affect the taste in some way or another. I agree though, I'm sure the head on these things is going to be ridiculous, out of control even.

I've never used any clearing agent aside from whirlfloc.

What would that entail?
 
Brandon, just curious. Do you prefer nottingham or Safale-05 for this recipe? I have both and my own fresh pressed cider so I want to choose the best one. As you know fresh pressed cider is precious. We did about 160-180 gallons this year and I have about 85 Gallons working into wines and ciders with several recipes (we gave a lot away too). Luckily we freeze a cache of drinking cider and have it all year, so I plan to play with some of that to attack your concoction. The idea of a good apple hooch before May-June sounds great to me :) Thank you kindly!!
 
I used Nottingham on my first batch it took about 3 or 4 days to start showing any airlock activity. I was afraid I had got some of the recalled notty.

I used Safale on the next batch and fermention was vigorous within 12 hrs.

Also the Notty batch stopped having airlock activity like 3 days after it started.

The Safale batch had activity for over 2 weeks.

Can't comparre tastes yet but I will when I have drank both.
 
I can safely say that the smack pack of west yorkshire I used was fermenting away within 6 hours of pitching. As to how it tastes; remains to be seen. I took a gravity reading yesterday and it was down to about 1.019. Unfortunately, I forgot to get an OG, ( though I could plug the numbers in and get a good rough equivalent I suppose),. I bumped the temps up a couple of degrees in the hopes of speeding the process up. I'd like to get it down to around 1.005-1.008. Problem is though, I have no kegging system so I'll need to bottle condition. This is only a problem due to the fact that I added too much wheat and the cider has the visual appeal of a flooded creek in july. I will be taking Akthor's suggestion and adding some polyclar to clear it. From my reading, I gather that this will kill off any yeast in suspension, (or elsewhere), and that I would then need to repitch a yeast to bottle carb, ( even if that means harvesting some from the trub before adding the polyclar, obviously I would wash it first),. This seems to dictate to me that it will end up dry no matter what I do as even the bottling strain will eat up the remaining sugars and I also don't want bottle bombs.


The other thing I've been contemplating is a slight dry hopping due to the fact that the hops, ( EKG's), were barely noticeable in the sample, probably due to the fact that the excess sweetness from the wheat has overwhelmed the boil hops flavor. I was thinking perhaps clearing the cider and then racking onto 1/4oz of the EKG's for a day or two at most.


Any thoughts?
 
BootsyFlanootsy said:
I can safely say that the smack pack of west yorkshire I used was fermenting away within 6 hours of pitching. As to how it tastes; remains to be seen. I took a gravity reading yesterday and it was down to about 1.019. Unfortunately, I forgot to get an OG, ( though I could plug the numbers in and get a good rough equivalent I suppose),. I bumped the temps up a couple of degrees in the hopes of speeding the process up. I'd like to get it down to around 1.005-1.008. Problem is though, I have no kegging system so I'll need to bottle condition. This is only a problem due to the fact that I added too much wheat and the cider has the visual appeal of a flooded creek in july. I will be taking Akthor's suggestion and adding some polyclar to clear it. From my reading, I gather that this will kill off any yeast in suspension, (or elsewhere), and that I would then need to repitch a yeast to bottle carb, ( even if that means harvesting some from the trub before adding the polyclar, obviously I would wash it first),. This seems to dictate to me that it will end up dry no matter what I do as even the bottling strain will eat up the remaining sugars and I also don't want bottle bombs. Get your flavor where you want it and worry about clarity for your next batch.


The other thing I've been contemplating is a slight dry hopping due to the fact that the hops, ( EKG's), were barely noticeable in the sample, probably due to the fact that the excess sweetness from the wheat has overwhelmed the boil hops flavor. I was thinking perhaps clearing the cider and then racking onto 1/4oz of the EKG's for a day or two at most.


Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

I would avoid the dry hops and I would avoid fermentation temps too much above 70F. Give it time to finish, then add whatever sugar you want to use before bottling, then use methods others have posted to get your proper carbonation without arming bottle bombs.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/easy-stove-top-pasteurizing-pics-193295/
 
Please forgive me if this is a noobish question, but what type of hops (leaf hops, pellet hops, or hop plugs?) would I want to use for this recipe?

I only ever made wine-style cider before, and so using grains, malt and hops will be a new experience for me. I am very much looking forward to trying it though.
 
Ciderzen-

you can use any of them. best bet is to get a muzlin/chzcloth bag, and put them in that to keep them from becoming a mess to be dealt with.
 
I used hop plugs since it was the only kind I could find in the right bitterness range.

Tonite in preperation for Sunday's big get together I jumped my 1st batch of Graff to a clean keg to make sure it would be as clear as possible. Before I transferred I pulled off a 1/2 pint to taste...........OMG it is friggin delicious! I will always be having this in the rotation!
 
I am going to give GRAFF a go in the next day or so. I picked up the ingredients today but had some changes:
60-70L Crystal (they didn't have the 50)
Using cascade hops (pellets)
Yeast will be safale-05

This is my first quasi beer brew, so it should be interesting. Definitely looking forward to making my apples work for me in a new way :)
 
FenoMeno said:
What is the correct serving temp for graff?
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I am no expert here, and have not made it yet, but if it is similar to commercial ciders then anywhere from slightly chilled to ice cold would do it depending on your preference.

BootsyFlanootsy said:
Ciderzen-

you can use any of them. best bet is to get a muzlin/chzcloth bag, and put them in that to keep them from becoming a mess to be dealt with.
Click to expand...

Thanks bootsy - I bought the ingredients, the LHBS had everything (he is VERY well stocked). Got Czech Saaz hop pellets to use now.

So I'll be following Brandon O's recipe to the letter, except I'll add in a bit of yeast nutrient to hedge my bets against bad smells and also some pectic enzyme since I'll be using fresh-pressed, unfiltered cider from a local mill (pasteurized, but with no preservatives). I also have the Munton's carb tabs for carbonation - I know they will add sediment but they should be the most simple for me to use for my first time.

I will be doing my primary in a 7 gallon plastic bucket, and will probably rack into a secondary carboy when fermentation slows but before it is finished, in order to get the graff off the dead yeast. Do you guys think this is necessary, just a good idea, or a waste of time? It will mean two rackings, one to secondary (carboy), and then again into the bottling bucket, so this could potentially oxygenate it too much. What do you think?
 
Ciderzen said:
I will be doing my primary in a 7 gallon plastic bucket, and will probably rack into a secondary carboy when fermentation slows but before it is finished, in order to get the graff off the dead yeast. Do you guys think this is necessary, just a good idea, or a waste of time? It will mean two rackings, one to secondary (carboy), and then again into the bottling bucket, so this could potentially oxygenate it too much. What do you think?
Click to expand...

If it's your first time and your worried about it, I'd just let it sit in the primary for the entire time. My guess is that since you are using cider it's not going to clear all that much anyway, and that such a short time sitting on the trub isn't going to be detrimental to anything. You'll lower your risk of oxygenation and for infection significantly.
 
It's like beer a month in primary and proper keg/bottle conditioning will be better than rushing. If you used Cider I would for sure skip using a secondary and just go a month in primary.

I am ;)
 
so I am still trying to figure out a plan for clearing this batch of graff. as I posted a few pages back, I accidently added quite a bit more toriffied wheat than the recipe calls for. resulting in some serious protein haze. I have sniffed around for info about clearing/fining etc, and have some serious issues still to be worked out. a lot of the info I can find is mostly regarding wine and cider that will remain "still" as most fining agents seem to drop nearly everything out of suspension, including the yeast. I am not very confident that after a proper fining I will have enough yeast left to rouse for bottle carbing, ( no kegging for me),.

So that leaves me with these thoughts...

I can add the fining agents when it gets to the gravity I want, and it will seemingly put an end to fermentation. So I'm wondering if I take it rather low, 1.05'ish, fine it, rack it to a secondary, and add a small addition, ( a tsp or 2) of champagne yeast and possibly a dash of DAP, would that be enough to further dry it out a bit, and to leave enough yeast to carb these up for bottling?


Am I making any sense here or what?
 
Gelatin doesn't remove all the yeast. I would also keep the graff in primary for a month that would clear it up a lot. Primary a month then put it in a secondary with gelatinfor a week or whatever the gelatin gurus suggest and I bet it would be crystal clear
 
akthor said:
Gelatin doesn't remove all the yeast. I would also keep the graff in primary for a month that would clear it up a lot. Primary a month then put it in a secondary with gelatinfor a week or whatever the gelatin gurus suggest and I bet it would be crystal clear
Click to expand...

yeah, at this point it looks as protein hazy as my triple decoction, no boil berliner-weisse. which hasn't cleared one iota either, ( mind you it has been sitting in the basement for 6 months with a big lacto pellicle on it),.I sincerely doubt this thing will clear no matter how much aging it gets. Good tip on the gelatin not dropping all of the yeast out though. thanks!


:EDIT:

So now what I guess I'm wondering is this: if I clear the cider and rack it off the trub into a 2ndary, pitch that small amount of champagne yeast, will cider just enter into fermentation again and with that bring the protein haze back?

Just typing out loud here...
 
Ok, I rehydrated and pitched the yeast late on Saturday night, and had some minor airlock activity by Sunday afternoon. By Sunday night, had bubbles every 3-4 seconds or so, and now on Monday morning the airlock activity is vigorous. OG was .162, and I will check the SG tomorrow night I think to see how it is doing (I don't like to open the thing too often).
 
I tried one after a week or so in the bottle, and it was VERY sour/tart. Absolutely no malt characteristics at all. Hopefully it will even out with time.
 

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