GFI breaker pricing... this can't be right

[flanneltrees804]

This website has Siemens 2-pole gfi breakers for $32 NIB... that can't be right. Anyone have experience with this company? Is there some condition where I have to buy 5000 pieces at a time, is shipping $100?

Circuit Breakers | Molded Case Circuit Breakers | Siemens Circuit Breakers Type QPF - GlobalIndustrial.com

 

[flanneltrees804]

With shipping my total is $43.42...

 

[stlbeer]

With shipping my total is $43.42...

Make sure it fits your breaker box. This is the reason most folks use the spa panel. Well that and having the reset in the room/area where the brewing is taking place.

 

[flanneltrees804]

Breakers in my box are Siemens type QP, this one is QPF. I am assuming the "F" is for GFI and that this will fit. I can't find a type QP that is GFI.

 

[yjfun]

You are correct the F designates that it is a GFI breaker. QP is the breaker design. That design was standardized and used by many different manufacturers since at least the early 70's. That breaker will fit Square D Homeline series, some Cutler Hammer, Siemens ITE, Challenger, GE, Sylvania, Westinghouse, and Bryant panels. There might be more that I can't remember.

 

[kgalle]

I have seen this breaker, too. Is it a viable option?

 

[Brickout]

I'm wondering if they have one for my panel. But I'll be damned if I can figure out what "type" of breaker I have. All I know is that it's made by square D.

*EDIT* Nevermind, I found it. It's type HOM.

 

[flanneltrees804]

So this breaker will fit... that's a huge relief! My other question would be about the use of a spa panel. I don't know how long I'll be in my current home and would like to have all of my equipment transferable to wherever I live. For a few dollars more ($50 spa panel and $10 non-gfi breaker) I can be ensured that this rig will only need a $10 breaker instead of $80 gfi in the future. Who uses what method and what are the pros and cons?

 

[yjfun]

Spa panel is easier and more economical because if you move to a house with an older electrical panel you may not be able to find a reasonably priced GFI if you can find one at all. I would personally put a standard breaker in the main panel and the GFI on or near the sculpture that way when it trips it's easier to get to.

 

[DustBow]

I looked in my breaker box and thought the breakers said "type: OP"
Could that be right - is there an OP and a QP? Are they the same thing/compatible?

Or are they different or maybe I need to take another look at them?

Thanks for any info - house was built in 1997 if that helps.

 

[yjfun]

DustBow what is the manufacturer of your electrical panel?

 

[DustBow]

DustBow what is the manufacturer of your electrical panel?

I will look tonight when I get home, thanks for the reply

 

[dredey]

First post... I saw this thread and work at an electrical wholesale company. QP breakers are Siemens snap in breakers.

 

[flanneltrees804]

So are you saying QP and QPF are different?

 

[Bokonon]

I tried to check this place out but the website is giving "403 Forbidden". Maybe the prices really were too good to be true?

 

[DustBow]

I tried to check this place out but the website is giving "403 Forbidden". Maybe the prices really were too good to be true?

The link is wrong in the original post, try this:
http://www.globalindustrial.com/g/e...it-breakers/siemens-circuit-breakers-type-qpf

EDIT: the link feature isn't working so cut and paste the link above

 

[DustBow]

DustBow what is the manufacturer of your electrical panel?

OK, 2 things:
First, panel appears to be a Siemens - Siemens sticker inside and all Siemens breakers

Second, I'm an idiot. They are Type "QP" breakers, it's just really hard to see the "tail" on the Q

I'm looking to go electric and was debating between two 120 circuits or one 240. Prices like this make the decision a little easier for 240v/30a

 

[yjfun]

Flanneltrees804:

QPF is a GFCI version of a QP breaker they fit in the same panels and are the same size.

I wouldn't even consider 120 volt elements for anything but a rims tube if you have the ability to get 240volts to where your brew system is. Cost of material is the biggest reason we install 240 volt heaters in houses instead of 120 volt heaters.

 

[DustBow]

Did anyone order one of these from this site yet?
It just seems too good to be true - ~$45 shipped for a 30a GFCI breaker.
Pretty much $100+ everywhere else.

 

[cjp4627]

There is a huge problem with counterfit breakers in this country right now. The off shore knock offs do not work correctly and along with most likely not offering any real gfi protection, they are a huge fire hazard. These companies go through a lot of trouble to make their junk breakers look identical to real product. You need to destroy the breaker to determine if it is real.

My dad always told me, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is!

 

[bdjohns1]

There is a huge problem with counterfit breakers in this country right now. The off shore knock offs do not work correctly and along with most likely not offering any real gfi protection, they are a huge fire hazard. These companies go through a lot of trouble to make their junk breakers look identical to real product. You need to destroy the breaker to determine if it is real.

My dad always told me, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is!

That's part of why I'm choosing not to use the deliberate-ground-fault method of E-Stop that's common on PJ's schematics. Even good GFIs have a rated number of cycles. Contactors and industrial pushbuttons/selectors have many orders of magnitude more rated cycles.

E-Stops out in the real world aren't done like that, anyhow. Kal's safe-start design with the main power relay is the closest thing I've seen to how we do it at work. I'm doing something similar on mine. I'll draw it up once I've tested it.

Energy isolation is a whole different game. That's where you get into Lockout/Tagout of energy sources. Pretty much every pump in my plant has one of these guys nearby (or something similar):

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/HUBBELL-WIRING-DEVICEKELLEMS-Disconnect-Switch-2EAV9?Pid=search

 

[yjfun]

Thank you. I am glad that somebody else also realizes that GFCI's aren't designed to be used as an e-stop. I've tried to point this out before but it never seems to sink in.

I haven't seen Kal's safe-start design but every commercial or industrial installation that I've worked on uses a contactor to break the circuit when an E-stop is hit.

 

[DustBow]

You guys have a quick diagram to show how to install a contactor w/ E-stop?

 

[bdjohns1]

Here's my current draft - still building it. Hopefully will be ready for a water run over the weekend.



It's basically Kal's design with a couple of tweaks:

1) The E-stop switch itself. I'm basically using a stop like this. Only difference is mine's got a 110V LED illuminator.
2) Kal uses a NO key switch where I'm using a momentary NO pushbutton for my Power On.
3) I added the All Off button, which is a momentary NC. It's basically redundant to the E-stop button, but my excuse is that I got the button for free from some decommissioned equipment, and that at work, we tell people to only use E-stops for emergency stops. Use a regular cycle stop button for regular stoppages.

The reason I used the momentary NO instead of Kal's key switch is a little pedantic. In a well-designed e-stop, when the e-stop is reset, nothing should re-energize. The safe-start circuit with all of the NC blocks prevents any outputs for energizing, but if you use a key switch, resetting the e-stop button would immediately energize the main contactor. If you weren't switching your PID power, they'd automatically power up, for example. A momentary pushbutton to send the initial current through and close the relay (the branch between the off and on buttons maintains it once the relay is closed) prevents automatically closing the contactor.

The design doesn't show that the Off and On buttons are illuminated as well. The Off button lights off the run from the safe start relay to the main contactor coil, so it only lights once the main power to the breakers is on. The On light is fed from branching off immediately downstream of the NC on the E-stop, so it lights up as soon as the E-stop is pulled out.

 

[yjfun]

This is just a basic holding contact setup.


https://www.circuitlab.com/circuit/5zd3fg/holding-contact/

 

[bdjohns1]

Thanks for the simplification, yjfun. Kal's design is just based on those ice-cube relays that are cheap and readily available (I think I paid $12 for the relay and a DIN-rail mounted socket for it), so that's what I used as well.

 

[DustBow]

Man, right when I thought I was ready to build a simple 1 pid/1 element/1 ssr/e-stop control panel based on a PJ diagram, I get thrown for a loop....now I have to figure out contactors, relays, coils, etc. :cross:

Time to search for more diagrams and try to learn how they work.
Are you simply bringing in the power through the e-stop and contactor first, then it goes out to the PID, SSR, etc. like in the more simplified designs?

 

[yjfun]

I always believed in the KISS method of doing things. Less parts means less cost and less potential things to go wrong.

 

[yjfun]

Dustbow

With the diagram that I gave you the only wiring shown is the control for the E-stop.

You can take the power for it from either leg of the 240 volt circuit that you are running to your controller just make sure you tap into the connections on the line side. (the side that's always hot on the relay). From the load side of the relay you can split the two main power legs anyway that you want to feed your elements, ssr's, pid's, or anything else that you want.

With this setup you'll never have to turn on or off your GFCI or trip it resulting in a longer lifespan of an expensive component.

 

[DustBow]

Thanks, I will take a look at things and see if I can get my head wrapped around them...when it comes to this stuff I think the diagrams help me more because all the different terms and names of the parts screw me up more than the theory behind them