Getting Red Ale while minimizing flavor effect.

[javert]

I've been on a trial and error quest for the best way to get the reddish color of Irish or American Red Ales, but I'm finding it hard to do without getting a big toffee taste that can assault the mouth on the first gulp.

Great Western Malting's crystal 60 proved to be too little for the effect. Crystal 75 gives a good tone at near 10 % but the flavor can be overpowering. I managed to mask it once with hops and yeast aromas but the latter seems to be unreliable.

Too late I realized that GWM gives its numbers on ASBC color, which I assume it is SRM. According to Randy Mosher's Mastering Homebrew, the red colors are at the 70 - 80 °L range, so I guess I could try a more kilned malt.

There's some Red Ales that use toasted malts for the effect though the Porter taste is evident (not that I dislike it, but I want to keep it non roast). Which Lovibond and proportion do you go for red tones?

 

[SoCal-Doug]

One method is to use Red-X malt. I'm not a fan of it as it's almost a cartoon and fake red. It's nothing like an authentic Irish red. It also tends to be too sweet for my tastes. Some people will use beets (seriously? beets? hell no). Others have tried food coloring (oh lord, please don't)

Here is the Irish Red recipe I prefer and keep on tap most of the time. I've had nothing but good comments from many beer consuming friends. I started with, and modified over many batches, a very popular recipe form this forum called "Raging Irish Red". It is not overly sweet or toffee. The trick is to keep it balanced (mash temp, correct yeast, correct hops, water profile). As far as SRM, I have never been able to correlate a color rating with the red that I was after. Beersmith puts this recipe at about 14, I find that a bit visually inaccurate.

72.8% base malt (I use Crisp Maris Otter)
4.5% Weyermann CaraFoam
8.3% Weyermann Melenoiden (this is the key to the red)
5.3% Weyermann CaraAroma (this helps in toning the red)
9.1% Wildflower honey (flameout)

16 IBU Crystal at 60 min
4 IBU Willamette at 10 min
WY1084 Irish ale yeast (with starter)
Whirfloc at 15 mins
Mash at 151-152 (I don't recommend any higher)
Water profile: Ca 62, Mg 10, Na 18, SO4 49, Cl 59, HCO3 83 (I start with RO water then adjust)
Target your preferred OG and ABV using the ratios above. I shoot for 1.060 (about 6%)

A couple things to watch out for in your quest... Some supply shops will substitute, even in their bulk bins, without any notice. Or they may say something like "crystal 120 is the same as caraaroma" or "melenoiden is just crystal 30" Nope, they are not the same! Also, different malt brands may vary.

And here's the result

 

[C-Rider]

I second the Melenoiden and you can use a touch of Carafa II. Using them for my Irish Red.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

I second the Melenoiden and you can use a touch of Carafa II. Using them for my Irish Red.

Carafa II can help a little with toning but its more of a brown. It can also get very bitter and roasty. Use it sparingly unless that's what you want to achieve. It's excellent in porters, stouts and even a tiny bit in an ESB works great.

 

[Miraculix]

Worth a try is steeping dehusked roast barley or carafa spezial 3 in cold water over night. This will greatly reduce the flavour impact while retaining the colour of the malt. I than combine it with a 90l Crystal, but this will obviously also give you a bit of caramel.

Never tried melanoidin in such a high amount that it actually creates Red colours.doesn't it influence the taste in a bad way?

 

[leonardoreges]

The classic Irish red ale has roasted barley in its grist. I don’t use it since I try to get away from toasted notes.
My recipe shoots for between 15 to 16 SRM, witch is maybe a little too dark, but I find it beautiful.
It has Maris Otter, Belgian biscuit, carared and dark Munich.
Bready notes come first and then some caramels.
I love it. Brew it over and over

 

[Upthewazzu]

CaraRed + rye...give it a try!

 

[Smellyglove]

I believe a good base plus a touch of carafa special 3 can get you there. Carafa Sp.3 is pretty dark though, so just one percent off can throw off the color. But it's dehusked so you will not get as much of that harshness as you would with RB, which is slight none the less, due to the low amount you need to use. With a solid base, maybe you'd only need as little as 0.5% or 1%.

 

[Upthewazzu]

I believe a good base plus a touch of carafa special 3 can get you there. Carafa Sp.3 is pretty dark though, so just one percent off can throw off the color. But it's dehusked so you will not get as much of that harshness as you would with RB, which is slight none the less, due to the low amount you need to use. With a solid base, maybe you'd only need as little as 0.5% or 1%.

RE: Carafa Special Malt...

I've used it enough to say without a doubt that it is still pretty harsh and "burnt" at even very low levels (<5%, closer to 3%). I bought 3lbs of II & III and didn't even get through a pound of each before giving up on it completely. I'll find different malts to get me to the darkness I need from here on out.

 

[Smellyglove]

RE: Carafa Special Malt...

I've used it enough to say without a doubt that it is still pretty harsh and "burnt" at even very low levels (<5%, closer to 3%). I bought 3lbs of II & III and didn't even get through a pound of each before giving up on it completely. I'll find different malts to get me to the darkness I need from here on out.

Ah, i feel "closer to 3%" is "much", I never used it in those quantities, thanks for the input. I mostly just use it as a final touch If I don't feel that a dunkel or some kind of dark Bock ends up where it should.

 

[Upthewazzu]

Ah, i feel "closer to 3%" is "much", I never used it in those quantities, thanks for the input. I mostly just use it as a final touch If I don't feel that a dunkel or some kind of dark Bock ends up where it should.

Heh, yeah the first time I ever used it, I used it at about 9% of the grain bill. Terrible, just awful. Dumped the keg. Next batch had it down around 3% and it was still way too astringent. Batch after that used it in conjunction with chocolate malt (~1.5% Carafa Special II) and it was still to ashy (although finally drinkable). Just decided to ditch the rest of the grain and chalk it up to a learning experience.

 

[C-Rider]

Carafa II can help a little with toning but its more of a brown. It can also get very bitter and roasty. Use it sparingly unless that's what you want to achieve. It's excellent in porters, stouts and even a tiny bit in an ESB works great.

That's why I said "a touch". LOL I added just a touch to an Irish Red and bingo the picture in BeerSmith turned red. Same for my Alt Bier.

 

[Miraculix]

Did you guys tried cold steeping it over night?

 

[C-Rider]

I second the Melenoiden and you can use a touch of Carafa II. Using them for my Irish Red.

My "touch" was like .3% in the Irish Red and 3 % in the Alt.

 

[ESBrewer]

I've been on a trial and error quest for the best way to get the reddish color of Irish or American Red Ales, but I'm finding it hard to do without getting a big toffee taste that can assault the mouth on the first gulp.

Great Western Malting's crystal 60 proved to be too little for the effect. Crystal 75 gives a good tone at near 10 % but the flavor can be overpowering. I managed to mask it once with hops and yeast aromas but the latter seems to be unreliable.

Too late I realized that GWM gives its numbers on ASBC color, which I assume it is SRM. According to Randy Mosher's Mastering Homebrew, the red colors are at the 70 - 80 °L range, so I guess I could try a more kilned malt.

There's some Red Ales that use toasted malts for the effect though the Porter taste is evident (not that I dislike it, but I want to keep it non roast). Which Lovibond and proportion do you go for red tones?

Most of the color here should actually come from roasted barley, as people have mentioned above, not crystal. If you are trying to produce the color with crystal only, you'll go way overboard -> overwhelming caramel/toffee. So cut down the crystal to maybe 4-5% (medium or medium/light grade) and add roasted barley (small amount, maybe 2%). Then, if you feel that you're getting too much bitter or roasted flavor you could try to add the roasted stuff late in the mash (final 15mins or so) to get smoother flavor or maybe cold steep it. But standard mash protocol and husked version should be fine, as some darker notes probably balance the crystal toffee and is exactly what you are looking for in an Irish red.

 

[hottpeper13]

What about the new copper malt that Briess was giving away at the HBC? I got 8 oz and used it in a Cali Common and it was a reddish color.

 

[csurowiec]

I have had good luck using 2 oz of debittered black malt in a 5 gallon batch with a 10 lbs malt bill and it gave a nice red hue. So that’s about 1.2%. I used Briess debittered black but Carafa III special should work too.

 

[C-Rider]

There is some base Malt that can be used to color red. Forget it's name, but here in Hawai`i it costs $3 a pound. Much cheaper to use a "touch" or dark malts.

 

[mj1angier]

What about the new copper malt that Briess was giving away at the HBC? I got 8 oz and used it in a Cali Common and it was a reddish color.

http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Assets/PDFs/Briess_PISB_CarapilsCopperMalt.pdf

 

[ESBrewer]

You could try something like the recipe below. It's devoid of crystal (toffee flavor you want to avoid) and seems to be extremely red. Combines the color from roasted barley and the reddish hue of rye malts.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/brighids-irish-red-ale/

 

[C-Rider]

Found it RED X Malt.

http://www.bestmalz.de/en/malts/best-red-x/

 

[Miraculix]

Found it RED X Malt.

http://www.bestmalz.de/en/malts/best-red-x/

It has a very specific taste, not what you want when the aim is to minimise flavour impact.

 

[Upthewazzu]

Found it RED X Malt.

http://www.bestmalz.de/en/malts/best-red-x/

It's $1.49/lb at farmhousebrewingsupply.com. I just ordered two pounds of it a couple days ago. I guess I missed the part where it says it can be used up to 100% of the grain bill. Dang, should have ordered more.

 

[C-Rider]

It's $1.49/lb at farmhousebrewingsupply.com. I just ordered two pounds of it a couple days ago. I guess I missed the part where it says it can be used up to 100% of the grain bill. Dang, should have ordered more.

Wish we could buy grain for that price. Basic 2 row is like 1.69 here on O`ahu. The cost of living in paradise is what I'm told. LOL

 

[dreaded_rust]

The latest version of my Irish red ale used Carared. That stuff is red!
MO as the base malt and 3.7% roasted barley and 2.5% carared gave me this ridiculous red color. not even sure the picture does it justice.