Galaxy/Citra NE style IIPA

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uSlackr said:
Isomerization of alpha acids continues down to about 150F. The rate drops off but doesn't stop. At 175 you will get a lot of conversion especially if you hold the temp there for 30 mins.
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Right but I guess I always understood it at you get basically zero bitterness from 175-150 deg. Could be a reason why my beers are so hoppy. I hop stand for up to 60 min if I can, while also using small (less than 20 ibus worth) of additions at 10 and 5 min.
 
Personally, i'd be bringing the 2 Galaxy dry hop additions back to 4 days. That should avoid any Grassy / Vegetal Notes that you get from Galaxy when it goes beyond about 4 or 5 days.
 
Didn't read through all the pages here but did anyone discuss the "upped the oats" part of the recipe. Sorry I'm on my phone and couldn't read through all 6 pages. keep the flaked oats at 1 lb and when you "up the oats" used MALTED OATS! I'm on a mission to educate the misinformed about this "oats in NE IPA" thing. And please don't take this personally but it's not the flaked oats contributing to this style it's malted oats. They are nowhere near interchangeable in a recipe
 
JoeMamasIPA said:
That is a good point, keep the grain bill simple. The haze is from hop oils. I don't like wheat/oats in this style as the mouthfeel aspect should be produced through the using the correct yeast and water additions.
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IMO I agree and disagree. I agree with the heavy dry hop oils but you need some high protein adjuncts in the bill to act as a vehicle for the oils to cling and hold in suspension and this won't happen from flaked oats alone
 
Little_Lebowski said:
IMO I agree and disagree. I agree with the heavy dry hop oils but you need some high protein adjuncts in the bill to act as a vehicle for the oils to cling and hold in suspension and this won't happen from flaked oats alone
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Dry hop in the keg with loose pellets at 70 degrees to the tune of 1oz/gallon and the hop haze will be there and stick around for quite some time (3 weeks is as long as I have gone before kicking a keg). I use to think the adjuncts were key but I tried without because I don't like the flavor they add. My beers cannot be seen through at all. Yeast selection is crucial where 1318 is a great choice with Conan a close second in terms making the hop ils hang in there.
 
olotti said:
Right but I guess I always understood it at you get basically zero bitterness from 175-150 deg. Could be a reason why my beers are so hoppy. I hop stand for up to 60 min if I can, while also using small (less than 20 ibus worth) of additions at 10 and 5 min.
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That is a misconception. Isomerization of alphas make bitterness and isomerization slows but happens down to ~150-160. When I told my local brewer I was getting too much bitterness he told me to cool quickly to 160. Of course adjusting when you hop and relying on the hop stand/whirlpool is fine so long as you account for what is happening.
 
motosapiens said:
is that something you're actually trying to achieve? or does it just happen from what you're doing for flavor/aroma?
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B, I am not trying for haze by any stretch. Its just how the beers come out with heavy dry hops and the yeast used. Heavy oats/wheat taste just doesn't appeal to me in an IPA. I tried it twice and was not into it but others seem to enjoy it.
 
uSlackr said:
That is a misconception. Isomerization of alphas make bitterness and isomerization slows but happens down to ~150-160. When I told my local brewer I was getting too much bitterness he told me to cool quickly to 160. Of course adjusting when you hop and relying on the hop stand/whirlpool is fine so long as you account for what is happening.
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Interesting. well I actually did take away the 10 min addition for this beer and upped the 5 min addition to 3oz ea Citra/Amarillo and increased the whirlpool and dry hop. I still started the hop stand at 175 for an hour with a 7oz hopstand but I guess I'll see where this goes. I did notice in the gravity sample that while hoppy and so much that it like stung the tongue it wasn't really super bitter just really really juicy or tangy hops. Also what's the effect of cooling quickly to 160 vs just letting the wort cool on its own, that's what I do, so just looking for tips I guess if it's more beneficial to chill quicker. I'll normally cut the boil then move the kettle to the garage floor and cover half with sanitized foil just so nothing gets in and I'll let it drop on its own which today took about 20 min to get to 175 then I'll start the hopstand.
 
JoeMamasIPA said:
B, I am not trying for haze by any stretch. Its just how the beers come out with heavy dry hops and the yeast used. Heavy oats/wheat taste just doesn't appeal to me in an IPA. I tried it twice and was not into it but others seem to enjoy it.
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I've also been told that really high amounts of oats like 2lbs plus can leave a beer feeling slick on the tongue and can diminish the head. Don't know for sure as I've only used up to 1 1/2lbs of oats in an IPA and that was just brewed today otherwise I'll use 2lbs in a RIS, or just 8oz In a lower abv NEIPA style.
 
Please, for sanity sake... when you guys say oats can you specify FLAKED OR MALTED? There's obviously a lot of education going on in this thread and throwing "oats" around so generally is going to screw this guys recipe up. I hate being the oat police but it's vital to know the difference!
 
olotti said:
I've also been told that really high amounts of oats like 2lbs plus can leave a beer feeling slick on the tongue and can diminish the head. Don't know for sure as I've only used up to 1 1/2lbs of oats in an IPA and that was just brewed today otherwise I'll use 2lbs in a RIS, or just 8oz In a lower abv NEIPA style.
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In this case you're obviously speaking of flaked oats correct? And you're right too much FLAKED oats can leave a greasy slick feeling and reduce head retention. Specifically why you can't interchange flaked or malted in recipes.
 
I also just noticed you took out the carapils from the original recipe. I'd definitely throw it back in there. I always love throwing in 7-10% carapils into my IPAs don't have to worry about adding any additional color or sweetness but it will add to the body and mouthfeel. Definitely a mainstay grain in my IPAs
 
Little_Lebowski said:
In this case you're obviously speaking of flaked oats correct? And you're right too much FLAKED oats can leave a greasy slick feeling and reduce head retention. Specifically why you can't interchange flaked or malted in recipes.
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Yes sorry it is flaked oats. I think at this point when people say oats they are assuming it's flaked oats, I'm not sure how readily available malted oats are to people, I know my lhbs doesn't carry them as of now but I was told they will be getting them in though and it seems in most of the NEIPA recipes here if not all of them when oats are used its flaked oats.
 
olotti said:
Yes sorry it is flaked oats. I think at this point when people say oats they are assuming it's flaked oats, I'm not sure how readily available malted oats are to people, I know my lhbs doesn't carry them as of now but I was told they will be getting them in though and it seems in most of the NEIPA recipes here if not all of them when oats are used its flaked oats.
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:smack:

If they are, it's because they're misinformed. Increased amounts of flaked oats in these beers will do nothing to help land your brew closer to this style. Please look in to it. Northern Brewer carries TF malted oats but it is true they are hard to find at this time.
 
benco said:
So what are the oats supposed to add to this fine beer?
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whatever you want, but I can't think of any good reason to go over 10% or so.

there are 2 pro recipes from no-da and weldwerks published in beer and brewing mag dec-jan issue. weldwerks specifies flaked oats, no-da doesn't specify, just says 'oats'.

I would suspect that since flaked oats are by far the most common ones seen in recipes and brewshops, that flaked oats are what most people assume unless otherwise specified.
 
motosapiens said:
whatever you want, but I can't think of any good reason to go over 10% or so.

there are 2 pro recipes from no-da and weldwerks published in beer and brewing mag dec-jan issue. weldwerks specifies flaked oats, no-da doesn't specify, just says 'oats'.

I would suspect that since flaked oats are by far the most common ones seen in recipes and brewshops, that flaked oats are what most people assume unless otherwise specified.
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I just used the water profile recommended by weldworks in that article with the elevated calcium chorlide and it really contributed to appearance and a nice soft mouthfeel. I think this water profile and a butt load of dry hops throughout different periods of primary fermentation contribute heavily to the style.

I didn't catch the carapils study. What were the findings?
 
Little_Lebowski said:
I just used the water profile recommended by weldworks in that article with the elevated calcium chorlide and it really contributed to appearance and a nice soft mouthfeel. I think this water profile and a butt load of dry hops throughout different periods of primary fermentation contribute heavily to the style.

I didn't catch the carapils study. What were the findings?
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IIRC, he said no one could tell much difference between added carapils and none, and also that the beer with carapils had *less* head retention. I still use it when a recipe calls for it. I wonder if there are significant differences between different brands of dextrine malts.

I have 2 batches of neipa in bottles now, one with the mineral levels in the weldworks recipe (60/170 sulfate/chloride), and one with those levels reversed (180 sulfate, 50 chloride). Later today I'm going to see if I can get my wife to help with a triangle test. I'll be surprised if I can't tell a flavor difference.... not so sure about the mouthfeel/appearance, based on trying the beers separately over the last few days. I think they both taste pretty good.
 
Here's a go to DIPA malt bill I revisit often

10# UK pale malt
1.5# Vienna
1# malted oats
1# white wheat
.75# carapils
.75# flaked oats

.5# sugar in the raw in the kettle


Looks a little darker in the pic than in reality. It's more of a bright orange. I may bump the MO to 12# to try and raise the OG and hopefully the FG as well. The last one attenuated a lot better than I wanted/expected and the body wasn't as substantial. The esters imparted by the Conan yeast were vital though as it gave a nice peachy character that blended perfectly with the fruity hops. I think it was day 2 in primary it free rose to about 69F, accidentally to be honest, before I lowered it back down to 64 but I think it was all for the best

IMG_7519.jpg
 
Little_Lebowski said:
Here's a go to DIPA malt bill I revisit often

10# UK pale malt
1.5# Vienna
1# malted oats
1# white wheat
.75# carapils
.75# flaked oats

.5# sugar in the raw in the kettle


Looks a little darker in the pic than in reality. It's more of a bright orange. I may bump the MO to 12# to try and raise the OG and hopefully the FG as well. The last one attenuated a lot better than I wanted/expected and the body wasn't as substantial. The esters imparted by the Conan yeast were vital though as it gave a nice peachy character that blended perfectly with the fruity hops. I think it was day 2 in primary it free rose to about 69F, accidentally to be honest, before I lowered it back down to 64 but I think it was all for the best
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Looks awesome. Thanks for mentioning the malted vs flaked oats difference btw. It's something I've wondered about but didn't bring up in this thread.

What dry hop schedule do you go with? I've read so many varying responses... Don't dry hop for more than a few days, dry hop in the keg, dry hop during fermentation, etc.
 
Personally I like to add in my dry hops in thirds. Typically a 6 oz regimen. Day 3-4 I'll add two oz, two days later 2 more oz, two days later the final two. I'll keg after the last batch has sit for 2 days. I'll typically add my lowest alpha acid hops earliest because, against popular belief, I've noticed increased bittnerness after dry hop. I also use pellets for best dispersal throughout the fermenter and I will swirl lightly every other day to get the clump on top to sink and resurface. I always make sure there's some bubbling going on in the blow off too before I swirl to make sure I'm not swirling any oxygen into the beer from when I opened the bung. I'll swirl one last time and then crash down to ~ 59/60F and the hops usually won't resurface with the drop in temp. I then keg using a co2 closed transfer from primary to keg. I've skipped secondary all togoetger at this point

FWIW: some of these statements might seem a little crazy and not backed up by any science or research but they've come to work for me
 
Little_Lebowski said:
Personally I like to add in my dry hops in thirds. Typically a 6 oz regimen. Day 3-4 I'll add two oz, two days later 2 more oz, two days later the final two. I'll keg after the last batch has sit for 2 days. I'll typically add my lowest alpha acid hops earliest because, against popular belief, I've noticed increased bittnerness after dry hop. I also use pellets for best dispersal throughout the fermenter and I will swirl lightly every other day to get the clump on top to sink and resurface. I always make sure there's some bubbling going on in the blow off too before I swirl to make sure I'm not swirling any oxygen into the beer from when I opened the bung. I'll swirl one last time and then crash down to ~ 59/60F and the hops usually won't resurface with the drop in temp. I then keg using a co2 closed transfer from primary to keg. I've skipped secondary all togoetger at this point

FWIW: some of these statements might seem a little crazy and not backed up by any science or research but they've come to work for me
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You don't get any grassy flavors from letting your first addition dry hops sit for 9 days?
 
No. Not at all. It's actually only a week not 9 days and it's only first two oz that sit for the entire 7 days.
 
I'll post my final revision next week when I brew.

I was looking for the water profile in south Baltimore and found this posted on an old BA thread:

pH: 7.7
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm: 190
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm: 0.32
Cations / Anions, me/L: 2.6

Ca: 23ppm
Mg: 8ppm
Na: 18ppm
Cl: 45ppm
SO4: 6ppm
HCO3: 53ppm
Total Hardness, CaCO3: 91ppm
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3: "<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit

It was posted 3-4 years ago and the address on the report is only a couple miles from my house, but I can't imagine it's changed much. Any suggestions for what to add for this style?
 
sam524 said:
I'll post my final revision next week when I brew.

I was looking for the water profile in south Baltimore and found this posted on an old BA thread:

pH: 7.7
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm: 190
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm: 0.32
Cations / Anions, me/L: 2.6

Ca: 23ppm
Mg: 8ppm
Na: 18ppm
Cl: 45ppm
SO4: 6ppm
HCO3: 53ppm
Total Hardness, CaCO3: 91ppm
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3: "<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit

It was posted 3-4 years ago and the address on the report is only a couple miles from my house, but I can't imagine it's changed much. Any suggestions for what to add for this style?
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Well first are You using any water software?
 
This was my last profile starting from 100% RO water. My tap water is super calcified from limestone.

Ca 100
Mg 14
Na 0
Cl 164
SO4 80
Cl:SO4 ~ 2:1


Just about 1/3 ml of lactic to get my mash pH down to 5.3

Very preliminarily threw your starting water into the software and, if i were using you're water for my last IPA, is throw in 2 tsp gypsum, 2 tsp epsom salt, and 6 tsp calcium chloride to 5 gallons of mash water to get me pretty close to my water profile above. For a NE style your water is definitely on the right track. It's low in sulfates and has elevated chlorides to start. Either way if you used 100% RO or 100% your water you'd need to likely add a tsp or two of both gypsum and epsom to raise your sulfates and get some mg into your beer. But ultimately you'll be saving yourself 3-4 tsp of calcium chloride with your source water. Always wanna make sure use some Campden tablets if you're using your water to remove chlorine pretty sure one tablet will treat 20 gallons
 
Haven't used any water software. What program do you use? Also are those numbers for a 5 gallon batch or 3.5?
 
Five gallon batch with only additions going into the mash. Do you have a way to monitor your mash pH? I use ez water calculator. Just found it was the easiest and quickest for me.
 
Little_Lebowski said:
Five gallon batch with only additions going into the mash. Do you have a way to monitor your mash pH? I use ez water calculator. Just found it was the easiest and quickest for me.
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Unfortunately, I don't. I plan on buying a a pH meter before my next batch.

Finally got around to brewing this on Saturday. After using ez water calculator and the report I posted, I added:

Strike water:
Gypsum: 2g
CaCl: 5g
Epsom salt: 1g

Sparge:
Gypsum: 1.7g
CaCl: 4.4g
Epsom salt: 1g

I also threw in 5oz of acid malt which brought my mash pH (according to ez water calculator) to 5.4. I didn't want to add more acid since 5oz is already 3% of the grist, and I read that more than that can give it funk.

Final water profile was:
Ca 136
Mg 14
Na 18
Cl 195
SO4 100
Cl:SO4 1.96


Sadly it didn't go as well as I'd hoped. I mashed at 152 for an hour while heating up my sparge water. For some reason I didn't think I had enough sparge water (even though I measured it) and it was too hot, so I ended up dumping some ice in it to bring it to my target temp. Preboil was a little under 6 gallons, post boil was around 5. Added flameout hops and whirpooled for a little over 20 minutes until the wort hit 175. Left the whirlpool hops during the chill (not sure if this is recommended either).

Took the gravity before pitching the yeast... 1.060 :mad:
No idea how I was over 20 points under my target OG, but I'm pretty bummed about it. Maybe next time I'll boil for 90 instead of 60 min.

For the dry hops, I added the 1oz of citra a couple days ago (3 days after brew day) and plan on adding the galaxy/mosaic when I get home later. I've heard of people dry hopping during fermentation, but the krausen is very thick with this yeast, and the pellets just stuck to the top. If this happens again later, should I give it a stir so they get mixed in with the beer or leave the krausen alone?
 
My guess is that you overestimated your efficiency. Looking at your recipe it would have put you at about 13lbs for a 5 gallon batch. 1.060 puts you somewhere between 60-70% which is still normal for homebrew. Add more grains! also add hops in a hop bag with marbles to weigh it down.
 

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