Galaxy/Citra NE style IIPA

[sam524]

This will be my first time brewing this style. Let me know if you guys (and girls) have any feedback before I run to the LHBS.

Recipe Specifications
- Batch size: 3.5 gallons
- Estimated Color: 5.5 SRM
- Estimated OG: 1.081 SG
- Estimated IBU: 66 IBUs
- Estimated IBU/SG ratio: 0.818
- Mash @ 150 deg. fahrenheit for 60 min
- Boil Time: 60 Minutes
- Yeast: London Ale III

Grain bill
- 8 lbs 2-row American Pale (74.4%)
- 1lb Flaked Oats (9.3%)
- 1lb White Wheat Malt (9.3%)
- 8oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (4.7%)
- 4oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.3%)

Hops
- 1oz Citra [12%] - Steep/Whirlpool 45min @ 175F
- 1oz Galaxy [14%] - Steep/Whirlpool 45min @ 175F
- 1oz Mosaic [12.15%] - Steep/Whirlpool 45min @ 175F
- 0.5oz Citra [12%] - Dry hop 8 days (add as fermentation is ending)
- 0.5oz Galaxy [14%] - Dry hop 8 days
- 1.5oz Citra [12%] - Dry hop 4 days
- 1.5oz Galaxy [14%] - Dry hop 4 days


Cheers!

 

[JoeMamasIPA]

I may be in the minority here but the 1318 yeast can make these IPA's kind of boring if fermented at 66-68 wort temp. I prefer Conan yeast with less than 4 gens on it. Just be careful with 1st gen Conan attenuation and such a big beer.

 

[Bramstoker17]

Looks awesome to me and similar to one of my favorite beers that I brew, mine just has some Mosaic as well and I use honey malt rather than crystal. For what its worth, I've found the sweet spot for me to be around 15% oats to give a very smooth mouthfeel.

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

Recipe looks good. My only comment is that the IBUs are kind of on the line between a standard IPA and a DIPA. With an OG of 1081, you might want to amp up the IBUs to around 80 to balance it.

 

[sam524]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

Recipe looks good. My only comment is that the IBUs are kind of on the line between a standard IPA and a DIPA. With an OG of 1081, you might want to amp up the IBUs to around 80 to balance it.

I was thinking about this too. Which do you think would be a better approach: adding any of the hops I'm currently using at around 20 min into the boil would, or adding a tiny amount of bittering hops at 60?

 

[sam524]

Knocked down the 2 row, doubled the oats, added a tiny bit of bittering.

Recipe Specifications
- Batch size: 3.5 gallons
- Estimated Color: 5.3 SRM
- Estimated OG: 1.081 SG
- Estimated IBU: 82 IBUs
- Estimated IBU/SG ratio: 1.014
- Mash @ 150 deg. fahrenheit for 60 min
- Boil Time: 60 Minutes
- Yeast: London Ale III

Grain bill
- 7 lbs 2-row American Pale (65.1%)
- 2lb Flaked Oats (18.6%)
- 1lb White Wheat Malt (9.3%)
- 8oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (4.7%)
- 4oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.3%)

Hops
- .25oz Apollo [17%] - Boil 60min
- 1oz Citra [12%] - Steep/Whirlpool 45min @ 175F
- 1oz Galaxy [14%] - Steep/Whirlpool 45min @ 175F
- 1oz Mosaic [12.15%] - Steep/Whirlpool 45min @ 175F
- 0.5oz Citra [12%] - Dry hop 8 days (add as fermentation is ending)
- 0.5oz Galaxy [14%] - Dry hop 8 days
- 1.5oz Citra [12%] - Dry hop 4 days
- 1.5oz Galaxy [14%] - Dry hop 4 day

 

[motosapiens]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.



I was thinking about this too. Which do you think would be a better approach: adding any of the hops I'm currently using at around 20 min into the boil would, or adding a tiny amount of bittering hops at 60?

i've just started making this style, and one of the well-regarded pro recipes (weldwerks juicy bits) uses a small amount of first-wort-hops, so that's what I did. half oz of citras fwh for 5 gallons, then a fairly similar hop schedule to yours. i put in a couple oz at flame out, and then a couple more oz 30 mins later at around 175 degrees for the hopstand.

I also fermented at 67 degrees for 2 days. by then my gravity was down well below 1.020 so i added the first dry hops then and bumped up the temp 1 degree per day.

8 days seems like a long time to ferment unless you are fermenting pretty cold. I've only had one batch of this yeast, but it was vigorous and quick for me in my beers. I would test the gravity after a few days and keep an eye on it.

 

[sam524]

i've just started making this style, and one of the well-regarded pro recipes (weldwerks juicy bits) uses a small amount of first-wort-hops, so that's what I did. half oz of citras fwh for 5 gallons, then a fairly similar hop schedule to yours. i put in a couple oz at flame out, and then a couple more oz 30 mins later at around 175 degrees for the hopstand.

I also fermented at 67 degrees for 2 days. by then my gravity was down well below 1.020 so i added the first dry hops then and bumped up the temp 1 degree per day.

8 days seems like a long time to ferment unless you are fermenting pretty cold. I've only had one batch of this yeast, but it was vigorous and quick for me in my beers. I would test the gravity after a few days and keep an eye on it.

Where were your IBUs? I just removed the 60 min bittering hop and replaced with 1/2oz of citra fwh in beersmith and it bumped the IBUs to 90. I haven't bought any of the hops yet and am going off of beer smith's numbers which may inaccurate.

I'm also leaning towards the changing the whirlpool by splitting the hops I'm already using. So half oz of each hop at flameout, then another half oz each after it naturally cools to 175, then let it sit for 20 min before removing hops and cooling?

Gonna make some adjustments to the dry hop as well. Considering two options:

Options A: Add the first hops two days after the brew, add remaining hops 2 days after that, then keg 3 days after the second addition.

Option B: Wait for fermentation to finish then add all 4oz at once and let sit for 5 days before kegging.

 

[motosapiens]

Where were your IBUs? I just removed the 60 min bittering hop and replaced with 1/2oz of citra fwh in beersmith and it bumped the IBUs to 90. I haven't bought any of the hops yet and am going off of beer smith's numbers which may inaccurate.
<snip>

Option B: Wait for fermentation to finish then add all 4oz at once and let sit for 5 days before kegging.

i used exactly the recipe neil fisher published in beer and brewing magazine recently (the 'best of' issue), so i'd guess my IBU's ended up somewhere in the neighborhood of his, which from memory is mid-60's, but honestly I never calculate IBU's or worry about them. It seems to be a very deceptive number according to my tastebuds, so I just brew to taste.

I saw an article somewhere this week that suggested there were some particular hop compounds that really only get utilized during active fermentation. I'm wondering if that might have something to do with the crazy delicious fruit flavor these beers typically have

 

[kristiismean]

I'd ditch the cara-pills all together if it were me.

but would just bump up the apollo (my favority bittering hop) to bring it a little higher, and leave the rest of the hop additions alone.

I would use just US-05 in this. clean and simple and let's the hops and malt shine through..

If looking for something different, maybe use some golden promise instead of the 2-row american.

just my .02, but no matter what, it looks good.

 

[grassfeeder]

regardless of strength of beer. you do NOT want 80 IBU's in this!! Keep it between 30-40 TOPS!!

 

[motosapiens]

I would use just US-05 in this. clean and simple and let's the hops and malt shine through..

i thought the whole point of this style was NOT have clean and simple, but to have a more estery, rounder finish.

 

[motosapiens]

regardless of strength of beer. you do NOT want 80 IBU's in this!! Keep it between 30-40 TOPS!!

seems like the successful commercial versions are in the 60-ish range.... You think that is too high? I'm not so sure, especially with the extra gravity.

 

[Bramstoker17]

seems like the successful commercial versions are in the 60-ish range.... You think that is too high? I'm not so sure, especially with the extra gravity.

I'm guessing that's measured with whirlpool additions which I know most people don't include in their recipe with their IBU calculations. My NE DIPA with an OG of 1.075 only had 37 calculated IBUs, but the perception of bitterness and hop flavor was much higher because of all the flameout and dry hops that don't factor into my calculated IBU number.

 

[kristiismean]

i thought the whole point of this style was NOT have clean and simple, but to have a more estery, rounder finish.

I can see why he want's to use it, it retains a great malt and hop profile, but using Galaxy, Citra and mosaic I don't think there is anything to worry about with using us-05 vs using 1318.

I mean, 1318 is going to finish (with his original grain bill 1st post) at around 1.015? while us-05 is going to finish at 1.010.

Either way, it's going to be a good beer. why not split it down the middle and use Notty? (FG 1.012)

 

[motosapiens]

would be an interesting experiment to try multiple yeasts. It's hard to tell how much of the character of these beers is from which part of the equation, but it does seem like almost every brewery that calls their beer 'ne-style' is using 1318, conan, or similar. But a high-gravity version definitely adds some other variables into the system.

 

[sam524]

seems like the successful commercial versions are in the 60-ish range.... You think that is too high? I'm not so sure, especially with the extra gravity.

Where did you read that about the IBUs and which breweries? This is my first time also really paying attention to IBUs so I'm curious.]

According to beersmith the IBUs are now 42.8 after removing the Apollo and cutting the whirlpool time from 45 minutes to 20. Adding .25oz of Appollo with the whirlpool change puts me at 58.5.

Also, I've seen people brewing this style using a tiny amount of Acidulated malt. Any benefit to adding that to my batch or leave it as is?

 

[chudsonvt]

Have you looked at your water and estimated the mash pH? I usually use a little acidulated to help lower my pH. (others just add some lactic acid). I put it in most any of my light beers from Wits to IPAs. I usually use a good amount of wheat and I find it compliments it (for my taste buds at least) as well as helps my pH, increasing my mash efficiency.

Also, have you considered WLP095? I recently tried it for the first time and really liked the result. I have a couple pounds of hops on the way for future IPA/IIPAs and will most definitely be using it again.

 

[grassfeeder]

Im not sure most people in this thread know what a true NE IPA is with some of the suggestions.

 

[kristiismean]

Im not sure most people in this thread know what a true NE IPA is with some of the suggestions.

true, but Conan and London Ale III are in style

all the juicy bits and haze is allowed in a "True NE IPA"

Apollo, citra, mosaic and galaxy, Amarillo, etc are all "True NE IPA" Hops.

Generous dry hopping and unfiltered..

 

[sam524]

Im not sure most people in this thread know what a true NE IPA is with some of the suggestions.

Are you referring to the hops/IBU suggestions or is the grain bill off as well?

 

[sam524]

Have you looked at your water and estimated the mash pH? I usually use a little acidulated to help lower my pH. (others just add some lactic acid). I put it in most any of my light beers from Wits to IPAs. I usually use a good amount of wheat and I find it compliments it (for my taste buds at least) as well as helps my pH, increasing my mash efficiency.

Also, have you considered WLP095? I recently tried it for the first time and really liked the result. I have a couple pounds of hops on the way for future IPA/IIPAs and will most definitely be using it again.

I haven't looked into the water profile yet. Planning on getting distilled or RO then maybe adding gypsum and calcium chloride. Still need to do more research though. Definitely want to get a TDS meter so I don't have to use distilled for larger batches.

As far as the yeast, I've only really considered London Ale III since it's popular with this style and my lhbs carries it. I'll look into WLP095 if they have it.

 

[motosapiens]

Where did you read that about the IBUs and which breweries? This is my first time also really paying attention to IBUs so I'm curious.]

According to beersmith the IBUs are now 42.8 after removing the Apollo and cutting the whirlpool time from 45 minutes to 20. Adding .25oz of Appollo with the whirlpool change puts me at 58.5.

Also, I've seen people brewing this style using a tiny amount of Acidulated malt. Any benefit to adding that to my batch or leave it as is?

https://beerandbrewing.com/7FW4kwQB...s-brewing-co-juicy-bits-new-england-style-ipa

dec-jan issue of 'beer and brewing' has a big article on ne pale ales, which I found to be very informative. Looks like they roll anywhere from 40s to 100-ish, although the majority of the judged entries have n/a for the ibu level. They also have 2 recipes from reputable breweries (neither from the east coast tho), from no-da and weldwerks, one at 66 ibu, the other at 55.

Oddly, the recipe for weldwerks juicy bits shows 55 ibus, but the review of the actual juicy bits beer a few pages later shows 45 (and got a score of 98, fwiw).

but as I mentioned earlier, IBU's seem like a particularly unreliable way to judge bitterness and hop-utilization when we're talking about whirlpool and dry-hopping, especially if it's calculated IBU's. There just doesn't seem to be much connection between the number and the taste.

 

[elburrogrande]

I think your recipe looks good except I would make it 4oz of crystal 15 and switch the carapils for 8oz of corn sugar. Also mash low 150 or so. How are you calculating your IBUs? I think you're way under 80 which is a good thing for this style. I actually like the yeast. I've used it for several NE IPAs and it attenuates well and biotransforms hops. I would hop on day 3 with more hops though. I suggest 1oz each of citra and galaxy on day 3. suspend them with floss and leave in for 5 days.

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

Did I miss something? The title of the thread is NE Style IIPA ... not IPA or PA. While NE style typically is lower IBU than West Coast, even Juicy Bits is still 55 IBU and that's a single IPA. The OP's original IBU was 66, which is the low end for a IIPA regardless of which coast it is from. Anything less than 60 may still be tasty but it won't be a "true" IIPA.

 

[2005STi]

I'd ditch the cara-pills all together if it were me.

but would just bump up the apollo (my favority bittering hop) to bring it a little higher, and leave the rest of the hop additions alone.

I would use just US-05 in this. clean and simple and let's the hops and malt shine through..

If looking for something different, maybe use some golden promise instead of the 2-row american.

just my .02, but no matter what, it looks good.

US-05 would be a bad pick on this beer, you want some yeast to not flocc and you want some esters. US-05 is pretty much the most flocculant/highly attenuative, neutral yeast there is.

I'm guessing that's measured with whirlpool additions which I know most people don't include in their recipe with their IBU calculations. My NE DIPA with an OG of 1.075 only had 37 calculated IBUs, but the perception of bitterness and hop flavor was much higher because of all the flameout and dry hops that don't factor into my calculated IBU number.

This is exactly the key with NE/hazy pale beers IMO. I would say pale ale IBUs in the 20-35, IPAs 35-45 and IIPAs 45-60

Did I miss something? The title of the thread is NE Style IIPA ... not IPA or PA. While NE style typically is lower IBU than West Coast, even Juicy Bits is still 55 IBU and that's a single IPA. The OP's original IBU was 66, which is the low end for a IIPA regardless of which coast it is from. Anything less than 60 may still be tasty but it won't be a "true" IIPA.

In these beers you're playing together:

1) Softness in the water
2) Softness in the grain bill with a heavy dose of oats
3) Late hopping for less IBUs and more hop flavor

a large IBU load would take away from the juicy/crushable nature of these beers, IMO

 

[sam524]

I think your recipe looks good except I would make it 4oz of crystal 15 and switch the carapils for 8oz of corn sugar. Also mash low 150 or so. How are you calculating your IBUs? I think you're way under 80 which is a good thing for this style. I actually like the yeast. I've used it for several NE IPAs and it attenuates well and biotransforms hops. I would hop on day 3 with more hops though. I suggest 1oz each of citra and galaxy on day 3. suspend them with floss and leave in for 5 days.

Splitting the crystal grains to half 10/half 20 should be the same or pretty similar to crystal 20 right? It's not in my beer smith (though I think I can add it) and I'm not sure if my LHBS has it. Also, how would that dry hop schedule compare to splitting them up into two? Maybe something like dry hopping half on day 3, again on day 5, then leave for 3 days.

Lastly, since I don't know my water profile, what would you all suggest for treating distilled water for this style? I know it's not feasible to get in the habit of brewing with distilled water, but it's a small batch so I'm not too worried about it this time.

 

[motosapiens]

US-05 would be a bad pick on this beer, you want some yeast to not flocc and you want some esters. US-05 is pretty much the most flocculant/highly attenuative, neutral yeast there is.

wait, wut?

Agree with you on the esters, personally, but US-05 is listed as 'medium flocculation', and generally less than british styles.

As far as I can tell, something in the process of dry-hopping during active fermentation *appears* to encourage even highly flocullant yeasts to remain more in suspension, but IMHO that is 100% a byproduct of a dryhopping process that produces sensational fruit flavors. I wouldn't intentionally to create any more haze than is absolutely necessary in the process of obtaining the desired flavor.

 

[grassfeeder]

I would still suggest against US-05, it's just not the right strain for a NE style product. Now if you wanted to use that in addition to another strain and blend that might be a different story.

 

[2005STi]

wait, wut?

Agree with you on the esters, personally, but US-05 is listed as 'medium flocculation', and generally less than british styles.

As far as I can tell, something in the process of dry-hopping during active fermentation *appears* to encourage even highly flocullant yeasts to remain more in suspension, but IMHO that is 100% a byproduct of a dryhopping process that produces sensational fruit flavors. I wouldn't intentionally to create any more haze than is absolutely necessary in the process of obtaining the desired flavor.

Huh, I didn't know it is considered to being 'medium flocculant'. I was basing off of my experience of it being highly flocculant

 

[elburrogrande]

Splitting the crystal grains to half 10/half 20 should be the same or pretty similar to crystal 20 right? It's not in my beer smith (though I think I can add it) and I'm not sure if my LHBS has it. Also, how would that dry hop schedule compare to splitting them up into two? Maybe something like dry hopping half on day 3, again on day 5, then leave for 3 days.

Lastly, since I don't know my water profile, what would you all suggest for treating distilled water for this style? I know it's not feasible to get in the habit of brewing with distilled water, but it's a small batch so I'm not too worried about it this time.

Yeah that should work just as good. double dry hopping is the way to go for these imo. I would do half on day 3 then half 3-4 days before kegging/bottling. As for water profile I would recommend close to 1:1 ratio with Cl slightly higher. maybe 140 to 120

 

[Jaybird]

This is such a FUN style! So free from a style it just makes it such a fun beer to brew you can't really go wrong.
My ONLY suggestions is to keep the 60 min addition under 15ibu. Then hop the ever living crap out of it in whirlpool. Dry hop dry hop and dry hop some more!
Looks like a tasty beer your building!

Keep us posted

Cheers
Jay

 

[sam524]

Updated recipe:

Recipe Specifications
- Batch size: 3.5 gallons
- Estimated Color: 5.1 SRM
- Estimated OG: 1.082 SG
- Estimated IBU: 49.1 IBUs
- Estimated IBU/SG ratio: 0.818
- Mash @ 150 deg. fahrenheit for 60 min
- Boil Time: 60 Minutes
- Yeast: London Ale III

Grain bill
- 7 lbs 2-row American Pale (63.6%)
- 2lb Flaked Oats (18.2%)
- 1.5lb White Wheat Malt (13.6%)
- 4oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (2.3%)
- 4oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (2.3%)

Hops
- 0.1oz Apollo [17%] - Boil 60min (6.3 IBUs)
- 1oz Citra [12.25%] - Steep/Whirlpool 20min @ 175F (13.4 IBUS)
- 1oz Galaxy [14%] - Steep/Whirlpool 20min @ 175F (15.7 IBUS)
- 1oz Mosaic [12.15%] - Steep/Whirlpool 20min @ 175F (13.7 IBUS)
- 1oz Citra [12%] - Dry hop 6 days (on day 3)
- 1oz Galaxy [14%] - Dry hop 6 days
- 1oz Citra [12%] - Dry hop 3 days (on day 6)
- 1oz Galaxy [14%] - Dry hop 3 days

-Keg on day 9

Again, these numbers are from beersmith and may not be accurate (specifically the IBUs from the whirlpool hops)

 

[elburrogrande]

My advice would be to do away with the 60 minute Citra and add .25oz of CTZ instead

 

[sam524]

My advice would be to do away with the 60 minute Citra and add .25oz of CTZ instead

Whoops, meant to put Apollo for 60 instead. Updated it again.

 

[JoeMamasIPA]

Try to ferment the 1318 around 68-70 as it tastes much better than when fermented at low temps. Just be prepared for some serious yeast on malt violence.

 

[Gentlemans_Ale]

I like your first recipe better - you're second one just looks desperate with the 0.1 oz Apollo and the 20L and 10L crystal. Take other's criticism with a grain of salt or else pretty soon you'll be adding flour to the beer to ensure haziness.

 

[JoeMamasIPA]

I like your first recipe better - you're second one just looks desperate with the 0.1 oz Apollo and the 20L and 10L crystal. Take other's criticism with a grain of salt or else pretty soon you'll be adding flour to the beer to ensure haziness.

That is a good point, keep the grain bill simple. The haze is from hop oils. I don't like wheat/oats in this style as the mouthfeel aspect should be produced through the using the correct yeast and water additions.

 

[olotti]

I'm confused? Why not have a small 10 or 5 min addition along with a large whirlpool and hop stand, aren't those late boil additions for flavor anyway. And why suggested 30-40 ibu in a dipa, that seems insanely low especially if your doing a hop stand only at 175 deg since your not extracting bitterness only flavor and aroma. I ask because I'm gonna brew a dipa 1.083 og ne style and I have 80ibu in my boil along with a large hop stand and dble dry hop, I just wanna make sure I'm not over doing it.

 

[uSlackr]

I'm confused? Why not have a small 10 or 5 min addition along with a large whirlpool and hop stand, aren't those late boil additions for flavor anyway.

They may be primarily for flavor, but you will extract bitterness from them at that temp. Isomerization of alpha acids continues down to about 150F. The rate drops off but doesn't stop. At 175F you will get a lot of conversion especially if you hold the temp there for 30 mins. If you add them at 10 minutes, they'll be converting for 40 minutes. That makes them less of a late addition.