Flat beer from keg

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Qcbrew

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I'm new to kegging and been having some issues with getting the proper carbonation. I've been getting quite flat beer even after waiting for 2-3 weeks. I keep the temperature at 48F and started off with a 12 psi pressure. With time I started raising the pressure and now it is set at 16 psi. Even then the beer was flat when I served myself a glass after a few days. However when I tried another glass, it was properly carbed. This lets me believe the beer in the liquid line didn't have the time to carb up, but the beer in the keg did.

Now, my question is 1. Is this normal? Has anobody else ever noticed that 2. Will the beer in the liquid line lose it's carbonation over time? I wouldn't think so because the system is sealed so the beer in line has no reason to release any CO2.

Anyways, I'm a tad confused, because most of the time people get excessive foam or carbonation from a keg. I rarely seen threads about flat beer from a keg. Oh and yeah my liquid lines are pretty long (6 feet) and kept cold so I hardly see that as being a reason for excessive CO2 release between the keg and the glass.
 
I'm new to kegging and been having some issues with getting the proper carbonation. I've been getting quite flat beer even after waiting for 2-3 weeks. I keep the temperature at 48F and started off with a 12 psi pressure. With time I started raising the pressure and now it is set at 16 psi. Even then the beer was flat when I served myself a glass after a few days. However when I tried another glass, it was properly carbed. This lets me believe the beer in the liquid line didn't have the time to carb up, but the beer in the keg did.

Now, my question is 1. Is this normal? Has anobody else ever noticed that 2. Will the beer in the liquid line lose it's carbonation over time? I wouldn't think so because the system is sealed so the beer in line has no reason to release any CO2.

Anyways, I'm a tad confused, because most of the time people get excessive foam or carbonation from a keg. I rarely seen threads about flat beer from a keg. Oh and yeah my liquid lines are pretty long (6 feet) and kept cold so I hardly see that as being a reason for excessive CO2 release between the keg and the glass.

No, the beer in the lines won't lose carbonation, but it takes longer for the carbonation to reach that beer. You might need to pour a half pint to clear the lines of the flatter beer before you get to the fully carbed beer in the keg.

Is that a typo, or are you really serving at 48°? If you're serving that warm it's going to be difficult to prevent excessive CO2 from being lost during the pour, and will likely require really long lines. FWIW your 6' lines are on the short side even for normal serving temps.

Are you getting a lot of foam when you pour and then the beer tastes flat, or no foam and it tastes flat?
 
No, the beer in the lines won't lose carbonation, but it takes longer for the carbonation to reach that beer. You might need to pour a half pint to clear the lines of the flatter beer before you get to the fully carbed beer in the keg.

Is that a typo, or are you really serving at 48°? If you're serving that warm it's going to be difficult to prevent excessive CO2 from being lost during the pour, and will likely require really long lines. FWIW your 6' lines are on the short side even for normal serving temps.

Are you getting a lot of foam when you pour and then the beer tastes flat, or no foam and it tastes flat?

Well 48F is not that warm... A normal fridge is between 4-8C (39F to 46F) with the vast majority at 5C (41F). Actually from my understanding of fluid mechanics, the length of tube does not depend on temperature. It is a function of height (ie your keg is lower than the tap), the diameter of the liquid line and the total pressure from the keg. Temperature influences the amount of CO2 dissolved (Henry's Law) which means that if the line is warm alot of CO2 will be released prematurely. My lines are cold (same temp as keg) so that should not be an issue.

Actually the only way temperature would influence tube length is that you need higher pressures to dissolve gas in warmer liquids meaning you would need longer tubes because you use higher pressures. Even then my calculations end up at about 5.4' for my setup. 6' might not give me a lot of play, but I hardly see that as being the main issue of my problem.

Anyways, I get normal foam and a flat beer. I don't want to cool down the beer more, because the kegerator doubles as a lager fermentation chamber.
 
With a temp of 48 and 12 psi, you're only hitting about 2.135 volumes of CO2. I'd think that was flat too.. Kick the psi up to ~18-20 (~2.6-2.8 Volumes of CO2) if you dont want to drop the temp any.
 
Well 48F is not that warm... A normal fridge is between 4-8C (39F to 46F) with the vast majority at 5C (41F). Actually from my understanding of fluid mechanics, the length of tube does not depend on temperature. It is a function of height (ie your keg is lower than the tap), the diameter of the liquid line and the total pressure from the keg. Temperature influences the amount of CO2 dissolved (Henry's Law) which means that if the line is warm alot of CO2 will be released prematurely. My lines are cold (same temp as keg) so that should not be an issue.

Actually the only way temperature would influence tube length is that you need higher pressures to dissolve gas in warmer liquids meaning you would need longer tubes because you use higher pressures. Even then my calculations end up at about 5.4' for my setup. 6' might not give me a lot of play, but I hardly see that as being the main issue of my problem.

Anyways, I get normal foam and a flat beer. I don't want to cool down the beer more, because the kegerator doubles as a lager fermentation chamber.

Your first instinct is mostly correct, except for line line length. That needs t be factored in as well. your pour, with all other factors the same, from a 2' serving tube vs a 12' serving tube (line) will be markedly different.

If you're going to serve at 48 degrees, the psi needs to be higher on the regulator, and the beer line must be much longer, as warm beer foams.
 
Well 48F is not that warm... A normal fridge is between 4-8C (39F to 46F) with the vast majority at 5C (41F). Actually from my understanding of fluid mechanics, the length of tube does not depend on temperature. It is a function of height (ie your keg is lower than the tap), the diameter of the liquid line and the total pressure from the keg. Temperature influences the amount of CO2 dissolved (Henry's Law) which means that if the line is warm alot of CO2 will be released prematurely. My lines are cold (same temp as keg) so that should not be an issue.

Actually the only way temperature would influence tube length is that you need higher pressures to dissolve gas in warmer liquids meaning you would need longer tubes because you use higher pressures. Even then my calculations end up at about 5.4' for my setup. 6' might not give me a lot of play, but I hardly see that as being the main issue of my problem.

Anyways, I get normal foam and a flat beer. I don't want to cool down the beer more, because the kegerator doubles as a lager fermentation chamber.
The temperature doesn't affect the flow, it affects how readily the CO2 comes out of solution when it hits the glass. The warmer it is the slower and gentler the pour has to be to keep the gas in solution. If you know anything about fluid mechanics, you should know that line resistance decreases exponentially when the flow rate decreases, so to slow the flow down just a little requires a very large increase in line length.

The fluid mechanics are actually much more complex than every line balancing formula, article, and calculator I've seen leads you to believe. They assume a flow rate of 1 gal/min, as that's the fastest a foam free beer can be poured under commercial conditions. The slower flow rate required for warmer beer means the line resistance figures are no longer even close to valid, which means the entire calculation is no longer valid.

And 48F isn't that warm as far as beer drinking temp goes, but it is quite warm in terms of draft beer serving. Commercial systems are designed for temps of 33-36F and use ~5' lines without any worry of excess foam. Most homebrewers prefer temps around 38-40F, and end up with tons of foam using the 5' lines that come in standard kegerators and kits, as evidenced by years of "help, my beer is all foam" threads on here. If you read through this forum you'll see 10-12' lines chanted almost as a mantra, because that's what people have found is required to prevent foamy beers at 38-40F. If you have to double the line length for increasing temp from commercial setting a few degrees, imagine how long you'll need the line for a 12F increase.

I'm not saying you shouldn't serve/drink your beer that warm, just pointing out that it will require much much longer lines. And as mentioned above, your current pressure and temperature setting is resulting in a relatively low carb level, which very well could be why you're thinking it's flat. Increasing the pressure to achieve a higher carb level is going to require even longer lines. And if you're getting any head with your system on beer carbed that low, it's going to be a lot of foam if you up the carbonation.

FWIW I personally feel 44-46F is ideal drinking temp for my favorite beers, but keep my keezer at 40F because a) it's easier to control foam issues and allows me to use a wider range of carb levels and b) the beer warms up a couple degrees when it's poured into the room temp glass.
 
Thanks guys for the answers. You're right, I didn't account for flow and just blindly used the equations on the net... That being said most of my confusion stems from the carbonation levels I used when bottling. I kept using around 2.2 volumes of CO2. I found that anything above 2.5 would feel a bit overcarbed to my taste.

At 16 psi I should get about 2.5 vol in the keg. Now if I understand what you guys are saying, when dispensing from a keg a considerable amount of CO2 comes out of solution immediately at serving. To avoid that and maintain a dissolution closer to the 2.5 vol I should increase the length of the tube or slow the flowrate. Since I can't do much about controlling my flowrate, I need to get a longer tube.

When I find some time, I'll try dusting off my fluid mechanics textbook and figure a formula to calculate my required length, see if it is a feasible length at my current temperature/pressure. Just to make sure I understand this; the basic idea is to find the length of tube at which the flow is fully developed (ie laminar and not turbulent).
 
At 16 psi I should get about 2.5 vol in the keg. Now if I understand what you guys are saying, when dispensing from a keg a considerable amount of CO2 comes out of solution immediately at serving. To avoid that and maintain a dissolution closer to the 2.5 vol I should increase the length of the tube or slow the flowrate. Since I can't do much about controlling my flowrate, I need to get a longer tube.

Yes, exactly! And while I appreciate calculations, sometimes the 'real world' intrudes and they may be off. Not the fluid mechanics of course, but perhaps the tubing has a bit of a rough spot, or one spot in the fridge is warmer than another, etc. So, it's best to err on going too long. The worst that can happen with beer line that is too long is that it takes 2 seconds longer to pour a pint, plus you can always cut a foot off if you want.

It would be disappointing to calculate the line length out, and find that it's still 6" too short for a perfect pour!

Also, if you ever serve a beer style you do want more highly carbed, like a weizen, the longer lines will work.

At 40 degrees, I've found that I need about 1 foot of 3/16" ID line per psi on the regulator for my system. So, ideally, 12' lines for my 12 psi. I'm not sure at 48 degrees if the same real-world experience would work for you, of course, but that's been my experience for my fridge/kegerator and faucets.
 
Yes, exactly! And while I appreciate calculations, sometimes the 'real world' intrudes and they may be off.

The thing about calculations is that they are always wrong. But hey I'm a geeky guy who loves wasting time on science :mug: . The actual reason I would like to make the calculations is to get a ballpark figure. As stated above line length can increase exponentially. So if I want to serve a Weizen at a warmer temperature (I know makes no sense, but hey), will I need close to 40'? That would not be very feasible.

But yeah tubing is cheap I really don't mind to have long tubing
 
Thanks guys for the answers. You're right, I didn't account for flow and just blindly used the equations on the net... That being said most of my confusion stems from the carbonation levels I used when bottling. I kept using around 2.2 volumes of CO2. I found that anything above 2.5 would feel a bit overcarbed to my taste.

At 16 psi I should get about 2.5 vol in the keg. Now if I understand what you guys are saying, when dispensing from a keg a considerable amount of CO2 comes out of solution immediately at serving. To avoid that and maintain a dissolution closer to the 2.5 vol I should increase the length of the tube or slow the flowrate. Since I can't do much about controlling my flowrate, I need to get a longer tube.

It's very difficult to determine exact carb levels when bottling because it's near impossible to accurately estimate residual carbonation left in the beer. It's easy to determine how much is left before you start the bottling process, but impossible to know how much is lost during the transfer to the bottling bucket and to the bottles, as well as during the process of stirring the sugar solution in. It's quite possible that your bottled beers had a higher carb level than you think. In a properly set up draft system you shouldn't lose much carbonation at all during the pour. Another factor could be that you're not accounting for check valves in your serving system. If your primary regulator is set at 16 psi, but you have 2 spring type check valves between your regulator and the beer, the beer might only be seeing 12-14 psi as they reduce the pressure by 1-2 psi each.

When I find some time, I'll try dusting off my fluid mechanics textbook and figure a formula to calculate my required length, see if it is a feasible length at my current temperature/pressure. Just to make sure I understand this; the basic idea is to find the length of tube at which the flow is fully developed (ie laminar and not turbulent).

Unfortunately it's not nearly that easy. In order to keep things a bit more simple, I left out the fact that with all else being equal, higher carbonation also requires slower flow to prevent foaming. Laminar flow is not enough to guarantee a good pour, and colder beer doesn't even require laminar flow. There's no one flow rate that works, it varies depending on temp and carb level, and there's no existing mathematical model to determine what the flow rate should be for a specific combination.

I did lie a bit above, and there is one line length calculator that doesn't ignore the basic laws of fluid dynamics. You can input your system parameters, and choose a flow rate (they have it in terms of time it takes to fill a pint), and it will calculate the length of line required to achieve that flow rate. Unfortunately this does nothing to help you determine the required flow rate for a specific temperature and carbonation level.

The good news is that extra long line doesn't have any negative side effects other than a very slightly slower pour. As I mentioned earlier, line resistance decreases exponentially as flow rate decreases. I have a 30' long line that I intended to use for soda, but in a pinch I've used it for beer pushed at 12psi, and it only takes a few seconds longer to fill a pint than my 14' lines.

Anyways, that was probably more long winded than you wanted, but here's the calculator. It used to be an excel file which also allowed you edit the roughness of the tubing, which is important for folks like myself using barrier line instead of vinyl. I can probably find the excel and e-mail it to you if you really want it.

http://www.mikesoltys.com/2012/09/17/determining-proper-hose-length-for-your-kegerator/#calc

While the guy who created this calculator is the only one who got the fluid mechanics right, he still doesn't fully understand the variables involved in a good pour, so take his suggestions in the text with a grain of salt. And FWIW for a carb level of 2.5 vol, a pint fill time of 10 seconds seems to work pretty well for temps up to 40F. At your serving temp my rough guess is that you'll need something closer to 15 seconds, which would likely result in ~30' or so.
 
I can't speak from experience as I've just begun building, but I can say from the hours upon hours I've spent educating myself by reading many of these experienced draught brewers posts, if you're expecting rediculous line lengths you may want to invest in Perlicks 650SS flow control taps.

I've seen quite a few articles on here by people who have bought and used them, and state they require quite a bit less line had they used regular taps.

Im sure if you're using ultra silver liquid lines, it could get extremely pricy for very long lines!

EDIT: those articles I read swayed my decision to spend the extra few bucks for the flow control
 
I can't speak from experience as I've just begun building, but I can say from the hours upon hours I've spent educating myself by reading many of these experienced draught brewers posts, if you're expecting rediculous line lengths you may want to invest in Perlicks 650SS flow control taps.

I've seen quite a few articles on here by people who have bought and used them, and state they require quite a bit less line had they used regular taps.

Im sure if you're using ultra silver liquid lines, it could get extremely pricy for very long lines!

EDIT: those articles I read swayed my decision to spend the extra few bucks for the flow control

Thing is I have picnic taps (ie the worst kind). Vinyl tubing can be quite cheap (0,25$/feet) so I guess I'll try that route first. However, thanks for the tip. I might one day upgrade to the Perlick taps.
 
Thing is I have picnic taps (ie the worst kind). Vinyl tubing can be quite cheap (0,25$/feet) so I guess I'll try that route first. However, thanks for the tip. I might one day upgrade to the Perlick taps.
It would be best to use 3/16" ID beverage tubing. Regular vinyl tubing can impart odd flavors. Beverage tubing costs a bit more than $0.25/ft.
If you're not currently using 3/16" ID tubing, that is already part of the problem, imo.
 
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