First Wort Hopping question

[LookingGlass]

Question on FWH. Looked and couldn't find the answer I was hoping to find.
I'm an all grain brewer. I've FWH 2 times now but used only 1-1.5 oz to FWH. I'm gonna do a citra/cascade IPA.
Hop additions if I wasn't gonna do a fwh are as follows:
.25 oz magnum for 60
.5 oz Citra for 20
.5 oz cascade for 20
1 oz citra for 10
1 oz cascade for 10
.5 oz citra for 5
.5 oz cascade for 5
dry hop with citra leaf for 5-7 days

So the question is if I FWH, could I do 4 oz of the combined citra and cascade from the combined hop schedule above, as the FWH? I know about increasing IBU during FWH and using less hops when FWH. I don't really care about reducing my hops at all if I FWH them. I've heard using at least 30% of the total amount of hops to the boil. I've also heard to use your 20 minute hop addition as the FWH addition and proceeding with the rest of your hop schedule. Can I use more than 30% with good results? What is the total amount I can use as FWH without "ruining" my brew? What is the most anyone has FWH hopped with and what were your results? My plan as of now is combining my 2 oz of cascade and 2 oz of citra and FWH them. If anyone has input, please reply. Brew day is Monday March 10. Thanks ahead of time.

 

[jeff13]

The 4 ounces would be too much for my taste. I've tried a good amount of hops in FWH and it can really dominate in high amounts. The FWH's add no bitterness so leave your bittering hops if you want them. I would personally take a percentage below 30 of your aroma hops and move them to FWH for the best results.

 

[LookingGlass]

Just after I posted my message I used my Brew Pal app on my phone and entered the 4 ounces, 3 and 2 using FWH. My bittering hop at 60 min is .25 oz of Magnum. 2oz of Cascade and Citra combined is 44 ibu, 3 oz is 61 ibu, 4 oz is 77 ibu. I think I'll go from there and decide what I want to do. Thanks for the reply.

 

[CA_Mouse]

I've done FWHs three times now. I cut my CTZ bittering hop addition by .25oz (from 1oz to .75oz). There isn't as much of a bite to the bitterness on those three beers, but there is a very noticeable flavor difference. The grapefruit bitterness comes through much better and you can identify it as white grapefruit (everyone is surprised when I tell them there is no fruit in the beer). I tried a full ounce the first time and it seemed a little over powered, so I cut it back to .75oz and it really shines this way. Of course YMMV and my CTZ are 17.5%AA!

 

[carton132]

The FWH's add no bitterness so leave your bittering hops if you want them. I would personally take a percentage below 30 of your aroma hops and move them to FWH for the best results.

I haven't tried this myself so I'm clueless here, but this surprises me. Won't all/most of the aroma from the first wort hops fly away over the course of a 60-90 minute boil? I would have expected FWH to result almost exclusively in bitterness and some flavor. It seems counterintuitive to remove aroma hops and add them pre-boil.

 

[Yooper]

I haven't tried this myself so I'm clueless here, but this surprises me. Won't all/most of the aroma from the first wort hops fly away over the course of a 60-90 minute boil? I would have expected FWH to result almost exclusively in bitterness and some flavor. It seems counterintuitive to remove aroma hops and add them pre-boil.

Yes, that's been my experience. I do a lot of FWH, and it gives a "smoother" bitterness, but not flavor or aroma. I know that I've read the experts saying that it is like a 20 minute addition, but never in my 100+ batches of FWH.

 

[carton132]

Yooper, do you consider FWH to be your bittering addition or do you add another once you reach boil and hot break?

 

[heckler73]

test

 

[mblanks2]

The FWH's add no bitterness

FWH does the bittering, it's as Yooper says a smoother bittering. I do this on most of my beers now.

Yooper, do you consider FWH to be your bittering addition or do you add another once you reach boil and hot break?

This was directed at Yooper, but here's my two cent. I do not add anything after FWH for bittering on my IPAs. I do a 10 &/or 5 minute flavor addition then an aroma steep after flameout when the wort has been chilled to 180*F. I turn off the chiller and let the temperature free fall to 155*F - 160*F then restart the chiller. I usually end up with nice hop oil slick on the top of the wort at 155*F.

 

[Yooper]

Yooper, do you consider FWH to be your bittering addition or do you add another once you reach boil and hot break?

I use FWH for my bittering. It gives about 10% more IBUs than the 60 minute addition, but it's much smoother and there is no harshness.

Some brewers don't like the bittering from FWH, as someone on this forum (forget who!) has always been adamant that the FWH is too smooth for an IPA. And I love that smoother bittering, especially when using something like chinook, in a hop forward IPA.

 

[LookingGlass]

Yooper, can you give an example of a first wort hop schedule you've used in the past along with your specific hop etc? That might answer my question along with some questions by others. Thanks ahead of time!


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[Yooper]

Yooper, can you give an example of a first wort hop schedule you've used in the past along with your specific hop etc? That might answer my question along with some questions by others. Thanks ahead of time!


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

I'm away from my home computer with all of my recipes, but generally all if my IPAs go with FWH/15/10/5/0/dryhop additions. I generally use that schedule with all American hops, but have used a few others like German magnum at the FWH as well. Usually, I use chinook, simcoe, amarillo, cascade, centennial, etc- often the highest AAU hops as the bittering/FWH hops.

 

[Beergnomes]

I haven't tried this myself so I'm clueless here, but this surprises me. Won't all/most of the aroma from the first wort hops fly away over the course of a 60-90 minute boil? I would have expected FWH to result almost exclusively in bitterness and some flavor. It seems counterintuitive to remove aroma hops and add them pre-boil.

From what I have studied and applied moving 30% of your aroma hop to a FWH gives your beer a smoother hop overall. There have been taste tests confirming. I have liked the results I get with FWH and use the technique often. You can also do a FWH and then apply a dry hop as well. My next batch will be done that way.

 

[Gameface]

I'm 100% with Yooper on this. I have moved to adding almost all of my bittering/60min additions to FWHs. I love it. I have won golds with it in local comps on English bitters. Smooth yet present. If it doesn't add bitterness I wonder where the bitterness in my beers comes from.

FWH is easy. Toss the hops into the dry kettle and start draining the MT.

Did I say I love it?... I love it!

 

[Gixxer]

Yooper, if you do not consider a FWH addition to be comparable to a 20 min addition, do you leave the FWH addition in beersmith as a 20 min FWH addition or do you change that FWH time to 60 min?


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[Gameface]

Yooper, if you do not consider a FWH addition to be comparable to a 20 min addition, do you leave the FWH addition in beersmith as a 20 min FWH addition or do you change that FWH time to 60 min?


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Not answering for Yooper, but I put my FWHs as FWHs in beersmith. It adds 10% to what it would be as a 60 min. addition, from what I understand. That's about right except that it's a more mellow bitterness, so, depending on what you're after you may want to up the amount or add extra 60 min hops... or just enjoy a full mellow wonderfulness of the FWHs without any 60min addition, as I have done so may times.

 

[Yooper]

Yooper, if you do not consider a FWH addition to be comparable to a 20 min addition, do you leave the FWH addition in beersmith as a 20 min FWH addition or do you change that FWH time to 60 min?


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Not answering for Yooper, but I put my FWHs as FWHs in beersmith. It adds 10% to what it would be as a 60 min. addition, from what I understand. That's about right except that it's a more mellow bitterness, so, depending on what you're after you may want to up the amount or add extra 60 min hops... or just enjoy a full mellow wonderfulness of the FWHs without any 60min addition, as I have done so may times.

Yes, that's exactly what I do. I count it in Beersmith as 60 minutes, plus 10%. So for most beers, that's something like an additional 4 IBUs or so, almost negligible, but it is a very smooth bitterness to me compared to a regular 60 minute additions. Some people on the forum (forget who at the moment) don't like this technique for IPAs as the bitterness was actually too smooth for them.

I really like this with "harsher" hops like chinook, seems it seems to really mellow the harshness but still have a nice firm bitterness.

I really don't understand why some experts say to move the 20 minute hops to FWH, as I don't get much flavor and aroma from FWH. If I wanted to move a 20 minute hop addition for more flavor and aroma, I'd move it to whirlpool hops and count it as a 20 minute addition for IBUs. That seems like it would provide more flavor and aroma, and still IBUs.

 

[LookingGlass]

Thanks Yooper and everyone in on the discussion. I've done 2 fwh so far and moved my 20 minute hop addition to fwh. I still added my bittering for 60 min and not to fwh. What I like is that it appears there are no set rules and just try different things. I'm drinking an oak IPA right now that called for 1.5 oz of Kent Golding for aroma and 1.5 of KG for 60 min. I moved the aroma to fwh and bittered with 1.5 for 60. I can tell the hoppiness is on the back of my tongue and smooth. Also Yooper I made your oatmeal stout last May and it was great. It's in my lineup soon. Thanks again.


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[Gixxer]

Yoop, Gameface, thanks for the answers. I think I was using beersmith wrong considering all the talk about subbing the 20 min addition so I was changing my time in BS for the FWH to 20 min instead of 60. HA! I was doing it wrong. I just got done messin with BS, and you can see any 60 min addition as "X" IBU's and then a FWH 60 min of the same amount, and it was the same plus 10% give or take. No wonder the last time I tried using a FWH it was so bitter.

Sorry for the thread jack Looking glass...

 

[Aonghus]

@lookingglass, I have found E.K.G. to be smooth no matter how I use them(they are terrific hops!). I have not tried a FWH instead of a normal 90 minute bittering addition. After reading this thread I am considering it.

 

[LookingGlass]

New hop schedule thanks to the discussion.
.25 Magnum FWH
.5 oz Cascade 20 min
1 oz Citra for 15
.5 oz Cascade 10 min
1 oz Citrra 5 min
More of a pale ale now rather than an IPA @ 37 IBU

 

[LookingGlass]

@gixxer
No worries. I don't worry about thread jacking. It's like a round table discussion in my eyes. We are letting a conversation develop and learn. I like that!


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[CA_Mouse]

Some brewers don't like the bittering from FWH, as someone on this forum (forget who!) has always been adamant that the FWH is too smooth for an IPA. And I love that smoother bittering, especially when using something like chinook, in a hop forward IPA.

I can't agree more with Yooper here! I get much less harsh bitterness with FWH. Because it isn't as harsh, I can taste the bitterness better. With my CTZs, the first IPA I did a regular 60 minute addition and it was just bitter. THe next time I replaced the 60 minute with FWH of the same amount, while it was still bitter, it wasn't as harsh. I dropped from 1oz to .75oz on the third one and found it was fantastic! I still have the bitterness that I want, but it is identifiable as white grapefruit. While this may seem odd to some, I think it enhances my IPAs.

FWH is easy. Toss the hops into the dry kettle and start draining the MT

+++1 can't get easier than dropping them in and opening the valve on the MT!