First time Lagering/Oktoberfesting

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Mutt98

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Taking a crack at my first lager tomorrow. Oktoberfest. I think I’ve got all my fermentation plans lined out, but I was curious about my grain bill. I’ve seen a lot of different options out there, and I’m pretty sure I’m in the ball park. I just want to make sure I’m not forgetting anything and I’m wondering about head retention as well. I brew a lot of beers with wheat, so it’s not usually a problem. Anyways, let me know if anything looks crazy here.

Oktoberfest:
All grain - 5 gallons
Munich malt - 7lb
Vienna Malt - 3lb
Caramunich - 8oz
Cara vienne - 8 oz
Melanoidin - 4 oz
Single infusion mash at 156*
Batch sparge
Tettnang - 1 oz (60 min)
Saflager 34-70 52* (diacetyl rest after primary)
Lager at 33* (probably 2 months)
Whirfloc and gelatin for fining
 
Taking a crack at my first lager tomorrow. Oktoberfest. I think I’ve got all my fermentation plans lined out, but I was curious about my grain bill. I’ve seen a lot of different options out there, and I’m pretty sure I’m in the ball park. I just want to make sure I’m not forgetting anything and I’m wondering about head retention as well. I brew a lot of beers with wheat, so it’s not usually a problem. Anyways, let me know if anything looks crazy here.

Oktoberfest:
All grain - 5 gallons
Munich malt - 7lb
Vienna Malt - 3lb
Caramunich - 8oz
Cara vienne - 8 oz
Melanoidin - 4 oz
Single infusion mash at 156*
Batch sparge
Tettnang - 1 oz (60 min)
Saflager 34-70 52* (diacetyl rest after primary)
Lager at 33* (probably 2 months)
Whirfloc and gelatin for fining

I'd mash lower. A beer like that needs to be well attenuated.
I agree… I’d aim for 150°-152°
 
Welcome to the lager club! What are you looking for in your end product? That high mash temp might leave you with a maltier finish. It looks like you're going for more a Marzen, so I don't think the ~8% cara malts should overpower the style too much. I think you need some pilsner malt in there though, I'd make it atleast a majority. Can't go wrong with 1/3 pilsner, 1/3 munich, 1/3 vienna either.
 
I was curious about my grain bill. I’ve seen a lot of different options out there, and I’m pretty sure I’m in the ball park.
Depending of which exactly ballpark you're trying to fit in.
There are three completely different Lager beers called "Oktoberfest" brewed in Germany and the USA in different times. You are talking of the modern American interpretation. The German and American versions are drastically different, mainly in that the American liberally uses Crystal malts and rarely employs less than twelve six malts while the German is much more restrained in the choise of grains.
The original German Oktoberfest of the 19th century contained nothing but 100% Vienna malt. The modern German Festbier consists of 85-90% Pilsner and 10-15% Munich.
That's why you may find wildly different recipes in the interwebz under the same "Oktoberfest" moniker.

For a first Lager, I wouldn't attempt on a beer with 6 different malts, 2 of them Crystals indistinguishable in the real-world mash.
There's a nice concept of the style (they in Germany don't brew anything like this now, but the concept is nice nevertheless), where for an Oktoberfest you use three malts - Pilsner, Vienna and Munich, each 1/3 of the grist, and three hops - Tettnanger, Mittelfrueh and Saazer in three charges. A great beer for learning your ingredients.
 
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I am glad you posted this and I'll post my own, but I want to try to clone some Swabian festbier. Here is a link from the brauerei. It gives the grains and hops. I want to play around with this and try to get close.

Fruhlingsbier from DinkelAcker (Germany)
Nice brauerei but I didn’t see the festbier.

Either way interested to see how your journey works out
 
If you brewed it, I hope it turned out well. There's a lot of good suggestions in this thread. I'll add mine to further confuse you when you decide to try this style again.

The last two times I made this style I basically did this:

Make Your Best Oktoberfest

I thought it was fantastic. It's scheduled to be the next beer I brew and it's going to be a double batch.

I've been using WLP 835X German lager yeast.
 
Josh Weikert is a nice guy and an experienced brewer but his recipes of "German" beers made of British malts are a joke to be honest, however tasty they may come out.

Maris Otter, shades of British Crystals, really, is that an ESB or what?

The whole Germany somehow manages to make German Lagers of German malts and it's only Josh in the whole world to whom those malts are not good enough.
 
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Josh Weikert is a nice guy and an experienced brewer but his recipes of "German" beers made of British malts are a joke to be honest, however tasty they may come out.

Maris Otter, shades of British Crystals, really, is that an ESB or what?

The whole Germany somehow manages to make German Lagers of German malts and it's only Josh in the whole world to whom those malts are not good enough.
Is the brewer trying to clone the process, or the result? If the latter, I would argue that the path isn’t all too important so long as the brewer ends up at the desired destination.
 
Josh Weikert is a nice guy and an experienced brewer but his recipes of "German" beers made of British malts are a joke to be honest, however tasty they may come out.

Maris Otter, shades of British Crystals, really, is that an ESB or what?

The whole Germany somehow manages to make German Lagers of German malts and it's only Josh in the whole world to whom those malts are not good enough.

It's all good. His strong Scotch is fermented with WY1007.

Here's the deal with Weikert. Throughout each of the many many Make Your Best articles I have read, he has never, not once, purported that his recipes are historically or culturally accurate. If that's the measurement you're judging a recipe by, move right along. His recipes aren't for you. If he wasn't so upfront with his willingness to mish and mash ingredient provenance, maybe that would be cause for knocking his approach. But he's right upfront with his irreverence toward beer styles in 'the wild'. His are lions and tigers in the zoo. If a relaxed afternoon at the zoo is what you want, they're excellent beers. If you're only satisfied by seeing lions and tigers in their natural habitat, he's not taking you on safari. That's not his market share. Move along to someone who will.

And that's ok, especially since he's upfront with it.

Psst... About to brew up an English Bitter with German Vienna. Oh, the horror!
 
Is the brewer trying to clone the process, or the result?
If the desirable result is stated as "A Malty Lager", then any ingredient would do. When, however, the aim is set on a strictly-defined traditional product with a fancy foreign name, the mission gets unaccomplishable: one just can't create the intended product with the raw material he suggests.
English grains have been selected and developed for centuries to have their own distinct and peculiar flavour. Do you feel the difference between Maris Otter and German Pilsner Malt? Do you discern that signature English flavour in English Crystals? Most do. Oktoberfest should have none of that peculiarity, it needs to have its own signature flavours (ever heard of "That German Twang"? we've even discussed it somewhere on this board). Or else it's just A Malty Lager - maybe even a great-tasting one, but never an Oktoberfest.
Maris Otter is nor more easily available neither cheaper than German Pils. I can't imagine a single reason whatsoever for such a swap, except maybe for wishing to look "cool".

Following the path of getting results regardless of the process we, for example, may greatly simplify and cheapen the production of Rauchbier: just splash some "liquid smoke" into a Helles. Why not? Flavour-defining smoky phenolics are the same in the Smoked Malt and in the bottle, after all.
Actually, that's what Chinese industry does on the mega scale in any manufacturing branch. Why then we do not keep their marvelously inventive knock-offs in a high regard?


And that's ok, especially since he's upfront with it.

That's why I'm saying he's a nice guy. He wants to look cool and he does, and at least he doesn't pretend to be the keeper of hidden truth and puts all necessary disclaimers where it's needed. But his waaay too relaxed approach to historical brewing heritage borders with cultural appropriation. I believe, homebrewing newbies shouldn't be taught that "Josh's Favourite Tasty Malty Maris Otter Lager" is the same thing as what has been known for 2 centuries as "Oktoberfest".
 
English Bitter with German Vienna. Oh, the horror!
No horror and no surprise for the illuminated and initiated :) At least, for the longtime SUABP subscribers.
You may make a fully authentic English Bitter even with Chilean and Egyptian Viennas.

Not so sure about the German though...
I'd better search for some Egyptian! 😄
 
... I believe, homebrewing newbies shouldn't be taught that "Josh's Favourite Tasty Malty Maris Otter Lager" is the same thing as what has been known for 2 centuries as "Oktoberfest".
Anyways... I hope to be brewing more of "Josh's Favourite Tasty Malty Maris Otter Lager" this weekend!

OT from this results oriented guy... last week I made 36 hour sous vide "bbq" pork ribs using liquid smoke!

Prost allerseits!
 
I hope to be brewing more of "Josh's Favourite Tasty Malty Maris Otter Lager" this weekend!
And that's fine, have a great brewday! I'm sure it will turn out a tasty brew!

I made 3 or 4 Weikert's recipes in the past (Belgians and strong Englishes, as far as I remember) and they came out really tasty.
To the day when I finally dared to brew traditional German Lagers I had already been educated enough to understand he's not my guide in my beery voyage anymore, but I still have some fond memories of my early beers :)
 
Well, looks like this sparked some spirited debate. I appreciate the feedback folks. I did away with the caramunich, dropped the caravienne down to 4 oz and stuck with the melanoidin just because I’ve never used it and I want to see what happens. Dropped my mash down to 152. Currently have active fermentation at 54*. Color looks pretty good to me so far. I’ll let you know how it turned out in a couple months I suppose.
Also, I’ll be lagering in the keg in freezer at 33*. Does anyone go ahead and keep there’s on CO2 while lagering? Or should I age for most of the time before adding CO2 (besides initial purge and transfer gas)?
 
If the desirable result is stated as "A Malty Lager", then any ingredient would do. When, however, the aim is set on a strictly-defined traditional product with a fancy foreign name, the mission gets unaccomplishable: one just can't create the intended product with the raw material he suggests.
If we’re reserving the label of “Oktoberfest” only for those beers that precisely match the product served in Munich in September of each year, shouldn’t this whole thread be pushed over to the “German Commercial Producers/Distributors” board? If we keep it on HBT, for and by home brewers around the world, then we have to make allowances for the fact that not all of us live in Germany. Some of us are merely interested in producing an Oktoberfest-style beer, or an English-style beer, and don’t care to switch over to metric measurements or move to a different continent just because it’s required to be authentic. That’s the logical conclusion to your train of reasoning: if you want to claim authenticity for a beer, it must be made exactly the same way as the original—same ingredients, same process, same location. You cannot claim with credibility that one of those three is inviolable while the other two are negotiable.
 
I'm happy to defend Weikert's recipes for what they are, but that's a stretch.

A strong Scotch needn't be brewed and bottled in Edinburgh, but it definitely shouldn't be brewed with tons of crystal/caramel malts, boiled to a syrup, nor peated.
 
I live 15 min from Proximity malt in Milwaukee. Special B and acidulated are the only malts i get off the internet so none of my English or German brews would be authentic. That's why i put the word STYLE after the name, like Kolsch style or Czech Pils style,and so on, that way I'm always right.
 
Well, looks like this sparked some spirited debate. I appreciate the feedback folks. I did away with the caramunich, dropped the caravienne down to 4 oz and stuck with the melanoidin just because I’ve never used it and I want to see what happens. Dropped my mash down to 152. Currently have active fermentation at 54*. Color looks pretty good to me so far. I’ll let you know how it turned out in a couple months I suppose.
Also, I’ll be lagering in the keg in freezer at 33*. Does anyone go ahead and keep there’s on CO2 while lagering? Or should I age for most of the time before adding CO2 (besides initial purge and transfer gas)?
I’ve always just left the gas hooked up. Carbs up while it lagers and I haven’t had a problem.
 
That’s the logical conclusion to your train of reasoning: if you want to claim authenticity for a beer, it must be made exactly the same way as the original—same ingredients, same process, same location.
Thank you for the logical conclusion. I too have a master's degreee in reductio ad absurdum argument. I have even used it already, in the Rauchbier part. Really, why not just splash some Liquid Smoke to it? Why not colour you "Oktober" with caramel? Why not to fortify your "Bock" with grain spirit? Why, finally, not to up the oomph in those AmIPAs with "nature-identical" synthesized aromatic compounds instead of those unpredictable hops? It's exactly what follows from your reasoning, when reduced to absurdity. Doesn't look more convincing than your "logical conclusion" from my words.

You cannot claim with credibility that one of those three is inviolable while the other two are negotiable.
You can. You can freely ditch the location. It's perfectly possible to repeatably produce aqueous solutions of verifyably identical chemical, physical, gustatory, olfactory etc. properties in two or infinitely more locations.
I brew most of my beers in a schitthole (funny: the forum automatically replaces the correct spelling with the word "lilacflowers" lol), to which the notion of "traditional local beers" is nonapplicable whatsoever; there's just no "traditional local beers" here and never have been. So I brew various beer styles from the better parts of the world, and I brew them with authentic ingredients. I try to build the original water and try to follow the original techniques as far as it's possible at the homebrewing level. And wondrously, my Oktoberfests definitely taste closer to commercial German Oktoberfests than to American Ambers or Best Bitters. And I know why.

---
You see, faking foods in traditional Chinese cuisine isn't just what it may seem to us. Since the ancient times it's been regarded as the epytome of culinary art. To be able to create dishes that look and taste like completely different dishes (e. g. a chunk of meat that contains zero animal-derived products or, conversely, a chunk of animal meat that looks and tastes like transparent jelly etc. etc.) was the sign of the highest skill of the cook. They didn't give their culinary curiosities exotic foreign names however. They invented their own.


That's why i put the word STYLE after the name,
^ That's the way to go when brewing historical styles, I believe.
The "-Style" disclaimer eliminates any possible discussions on authenticity.
But hell no: some people claim to brew (or, worse, teach to brew, or - still worse - brew and sell) centuries-old styles with twelve malts, catty hops, norwegian yeasts and other cute features of the postmodern approach to tradition and heritage - and with no disclaimers. Which I think is wrong.
 
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It's perfectly possible to repeatably produce aqueous solutions of verifyably identical chemical, physical, gustatory, olfactory etc. properties….
Why do the chemical and physical properties matter if the gustatory and olfactory properties are indistinguishable? If it tastes and smells like beer style X, does it matter how it got there?
To be able to create dishes that look and taste like completely different dishes…was the sign of the highest skill of the cook.
Seems like that’s what we’re doing if we’re using traditionally English ingredients to make a German-style beer, and vice versa.
 
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