Fermentis Safbrew LA-01 Recipe Testing - Low Alcohol

[duncan_disorderly]

I ended up putting up a video about my attempt to make a No/Low ABV Hazy IPA:


Summary: The beer is not terrible but also not great. It looks great, and has a nice hoppy aroma, but the taste is overwhelmed by astringency. I am not 100% sure if this is just hop astringency. I used a lot of hops and I hit around 50% attenuation (vs the planned 15%), so there is little body and sweetness to back up the amount of hops used.

I am not sure what caused the extra attenuation. I have read that small amounts of residual brewers yeast can cause this. It is also possible that something like some wild yeast took hold. Normally pitching a healthy amount of yeast will outcompete other yeasts, but since LA-01 leaves behind lots of fermentable sugars, there is more room for other yeasts to take hold.

I do also detect a little phenolic character on the aroma and taste. LA-01 is reported to be POF+ but produces very little phenolic character. That could be another sign that a wild yeast helped out with the fermentation.

I would like to cycle back to brewing a No/Low ABV beer. I probably should have gone with my initial ideas to brew something like an English Mild or a lightly hopped Pale Ale style beer. I am curious about using a low attenuating yeast like Windsor or S-33 combined with a very high mash temp (around 170F).

Really enjoyed the video, thanks.

I've recently made a 1030 English Bitter using Lalbrew London yeast. ABV around 2.8%. It is not stellar but it's pretty good, I'm enjoying it. I will sharpen up the hopping next time. I used some rare Janus hops from an English hop yard, which are nice but I would like to get a sharper bitterness into the beer - I was a big fan of Boddington's Bitter before it was dumbed down, which was around 1035 OG and 32 IBUs. It was a "Wow, how do they do that?!" beer. I've not been able to replicate it but I've had some nice beers nonetheless.

Getting down below 1% is another matter entirely. I don't think I'll be trying unless someone can convince me of a straight forward method that produces good, reliable results. This yeast seems worth exploring. I guess if you are very low on malt then throwing in loads of hops will create a heavy imbalance. Boddingtons had a high attenuation yeast and FGs around 1004, which is counter intuitive. But it wasn't thin, for some reason I don't understand, and the dryness and bitterness made it highly drinkable. I'm going to continue making beers around 3% for now and see what I learn and where that takes me.

 

[kcpup]

I am carbing up a 5 gallon recipe I made based on this David Heath recipe for Low Alcohol IPA. Youtube link at bottom of post.

Brewfather recipe link from David: https://share.brewfather.app/32DO4oSY...

Also link to Low Alcohol Brewing advice from Lallemand: https://www.btobeer.com/images/tech.../lallemand-bestpractices-low-alcohol-beer.pdf

I didn't have Mosaic on hand, so I subbed Simcoe. I ended up with ABV of 1.05%.

I am optimistic - the hydrometer samples are tasty and has body - I'm guessing the lactose really helped along with the Carapils. I am away from home next week but will report back when I return and it will be carbed. Used Windsor for the yeast - Maltotriose negative.

I am drinking low/no alcohol beer during the week and full octane on weekends. In essence, I'll be brewing low alcohol a lot.

On another note:
I also have a Low Alcohol Witbier fermenting with WB-06. The ABV will be higher because this yeast is not Maltotriose negative. I'm guessing it will be between 1.5-1.7%. It will be while before that's ready - 3 weeks or so.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

That David Heath. Actually making Low ABV beers that taste good!?! Who wants that??

I recently dumped the last half of my attempt. The biggest issue was definitely bitterness from the hops. I had hoped that it would fade over time, but never really did. If I had not gotten the extra attenuation (still not sure where what caused that) it might have had some sweet and malty character to back up the bitterness. I think I measured 1.4% ABV. I found that I could drink a pint of that with lunch and not feel any impacts from the alcohol.

I would definitely like to cycle back to this again with my remaining LA-01 in a different style. I will probably take some extra sanitization precautions and would probably just move it to a keg once I saw fermentation slow (around day 3 or 4).

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

That David Heath. Actually making Low ABV beers that taste good!?! Who wants that??

I recently dumped the last half of my attempt. The biggest issue was definitely bitterness from the hops. I had hoped that it would fade over time, but never really did. If I had not gotten the extra attenuation (still not sure where what caused that) it might have had some sweet and malty character to back up the bitterness. I think I measured 1.4% ABV. I found that I could drink a pint of that with lunch and not feel any impacts from the alcohol.

I would definitely like to cycle back to this again with my remaining LA-01 in a different style. I will probably take some extra sanitization precautions and would probably just move it to a keg once I saw fermentation slow (around day 3 or 4).

How long did your first batch stay in the fermenter for? I’ve modified my procedure now to allow no more than 7 days, keg it and then pasteurize the keg. That’s been able to maintain at 0.5% ABV or below.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

How long did your first batch stay in the fermenter for? I’ve modified my procedure now to allow no more than 7 days, keg it and then pasteurize the keg. That’s been able to maintain at 0.5% ABV or below.

As I recall, around day 3 it looked like fermentation was winding down and I took a gravity reading that put it right around the 15% attenuation. That sample tasted decent (but a bit young). Maybe the next day I started seeing some more bubbles from fermentation. I added the dry hops and kegged it a few day later. I guess my typical mindset is "I want to try and ensure a complete fermentation", but that might not be the goal here.

I also was not sure how I would handle the pasteurization, so I did not do that. I think you mentioned it earlier, but what is your process?

 

[AntDoctor]

I recently dumped the last half of my attempt. The biggest issue was definitely bitterness from the hops. I had hoped that it would fade over time, but never really did.

Yeah, how do you deal with this in low ABV beers? Whenever I make hop water, it often ends up being way more sharply bitter than I would expect. Like, I somehow get less aroma and more bitterness, even though it's never heated up above 170 at any point in the process!

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Yeah, how do you deal with this in low ABV beers? Whenever I make hop water, it often ends up being way more sharply bitter than I would expect. Like, I somehow get less aroma and more bitterness, even though it's never heated up above 170 at any point in the process!

Good question. I suspect there is a reason that most NA "IPAs" are pretty low in hop flavors. I used to think that you needed to boil hops for 60 minutes to get bitterness, but the last few years have taught me how much bitterness you can get from flameout and whirlpool additions. I suspect the key is just balance between the amount of hops used and the strategy to get some malt character and sweetness in the beer (high mash temps, low attenuating yeast, non-enzymatic mashing, etc.).

I might have mentioned it in this thread, but the best hoppy NA beers I have had were some Athletic Brewing beers. There was a rep at a local pub with a tasting station. I suspect the cans he had were very fresh. I have purchased a few NA beers (including Athletic) from the store and was not impressed. I tend to think that NA beers do not package well and have a limited shelf life.

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

As I recall, around day 3 it looked like fermentation was winding down and I took a gravity reading that put it right around the 15% attenuation. That sample tasted decent (but a bit young). Maybe the next day I started seeing some more bubbles from fermentation. I added the dry hops and kegged it a few day later. I guess my typical mindset is "I want to try and ensure a complete fermentation", but that might not be the goal here.

I also was not sure how I would handle the pasteurization, so I did not do that. I think you mentioned it earlier, but what is your process?

So I had the same thing happen with the rye brown. Fermentation looked complete at around day 5 or 6. On day 8 it had started to form a new krausen, so I packaged it as soon as I could (Day 9) and pasteurized it. That one ended up being 0.9% ABV. I think it’s one of these two things:

1. It’s really hard to get rid of any trace of non-LA-01 yeast in our fermentation vessels using standard sanitation practices.
2. The LA-01 yeast itself has some impurities either from initial packaging or from my procedure in re-packaging it.

We don’t normally have to worry about either of those things with normal yeast we use since they have much higher attenuation. It makes me wonder if with other commercial yeasts of S. cerevisiae you may actually have a some minor impurities of other strains, we just don’t notice or care since it is an imperceptible impact. Here though, any impurities lead to it fermenting out the rest of the way.

So to combat that, this is what I’ve started doing:

1. Ferment 5-8 days
2. Package into a CO2 purged keg with closed transfer
3. Put 20psig CO2 on the keg, burp it a couple times
4. Put keg in 145F water bath for 1 hour (I use my boil kettle as the water bath, there’s a photo further up in the thread)
5. Put keg on 25 psig CO2 and allow to cool in my keg chamber.
6. Drop down to serving pressure 24 hours later.
7. Run 160F water through serving line and tap for 5 minutes
8. Run starsan through serving line
9. Hook up serving line to keg
10. Pour NA beer!

 

[Henbrew]

I've been keeping kombucha on tap as a low ABV option but this is quite intriguing. PM sent!

 

[AntDoctor]

There was a rep at a local pub with a tasting station. I suspect the cans he had were very fresh. I have purchased a few NA beers (including Athletic) from the store and was not impressed. I tend to think that NA beers do not package well and have a limited shelf life.

Huh! Yeah, I have not been impressed by the Athletic cans that I've purchased either...

1. Ferment 5-8 days
2. Package into a CO2 purged keg with closed transfer
3. Put 20psig CO2 on the keg, burp it a couple times
4. Put keg in 145F water bath for 1 hour (I use my boil kettle as the water bath, there’s a photo further up in the thread)
5. Put keg on 25 psig CO2 and allow to cool in my keg chamber.

Between steps 3 and 4, do you wait until it's carbonated? In other words, what's the purpose of step 3?

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

Between steps 3 and 4, do you wait until it's carbonated? In other words, what's the purpose of step 3?

Mainly just to seal the keg and mostly paranoia about oxygen uptake at elevated pasteurization temps.

I checked on it pretty frequently the first time to make sure the safety on the keg didn’t lift due to the temperature increase but all was good.

 

[BrokenBrew]

@AntDoctor , @Radiojoe , @BrokenBrew , @z28tt , @beersk. Your yeast has shipped!

@kcpup I'll hit you on the next round of packaging.

I've also got 2 more batches under the belt now. One is carbonating now. Will post recipes and notes once I have some time.

Just received it. Thanks so much. I'll let you know how it goes

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

Just received it. Thanks so much. I'll let you know how it goes

Awesome glad it made it!

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

Did everyone else get theirs as well?

 

[beersk]

@AntDoctor , @Radiojoe , @BrokenBrew , @z28tt , @beersk. Your yeast has shipped!

@kcpup I'll hit you on the next round of packaging.

I've also got 2 more batches under the belt now. One is carbonating now. Will post recipes and notes once I have some time.

Hey, man. I got the yeast! Thanks again! I haven't been on the brewing forums in probably 6 months, can't remember really, but when the yeast showed up I thought maybe I should check on here to be sure it was what I thought it was.

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

Hey, man. I got the yeast! Thanks again! I haven't been on the brewing forums in probably 6 months, can't remember really, but when the yeast showed up I thought maybe I should check on here to be sure it was what I thought it was.

Yep that's it! I suppose a note explaining the non-descript envelope and vacuum sealed bag of unknown granular subtance might have been valuable!

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

OK. Finally getting around to uploading recipes on the last two. I will have to say, dialing in whatever your brewing set up is to these small grain bills is somewhat of a challenge. I’m 3 recipes in, 2 all-grain and still kind of guessing.

Rye Not? – Rye Brown NA

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 12.00 gal
Boil Size: 14.06 gal
Boil Time: 60 min
End of Boil Vol: 13.54 gal

Date: 20 Nov 2021
Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 78.0 %
Color: 17.7 SRM
IBU: 28.0 IBUs Tinseth
OG Est: 1.029 SG
FG Est: 1.026 SG
BU/GU: 0.961
Calories: 136.7 kcal/12oz

Taste Notes:

Great head retention. Might be our favorite of the three NA attempts so far. Rye spice, chocolate aroma. Taste: Rye spice, malt, chocolate, toasted marshmallow. Bitterness level close to balanced, would up slightly on next batch.

INGREDIENTS​

Water Prep

Amt​	Name​	Type​	#​	%/IBU​	Volume​
17.19 gal	Distilled Water	Water	1	-	-
4.38 g	Calcium Chloride (Mash)	Water Agent	2	-	-
4.05 g	Baking Soda (Mash)	Water Agent	3	-	-
2.90 ml	Lactic Acid (Mash)	Water Agent	4	-	-
2.25 g	Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash)	Water Agent	5	-	-
1.29 g	Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Mash)	Water Agent	6	-	-

Mash Ingredients

Amt​	Name​	Type​	#​	%/IBU​	Volume​
10 lbs 4.0 oz	Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)	Grain	7	73.2 %	0.80 gal
1 lbs 8.0 oz	Rye Malt (4.7 SRM)	Grain	8	10.7 %	0.12 gal
12.0 oz	Special Roast (50.0 SRM)	Grain	9	5.4 %	0.06 gal
8.0 oz	Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM)	Grain	10	3.6 %	0.04 gal
8.0 oz	Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM)	Grain	11	3.6 %	0.04 gal
8.0 oz	Chocolate Rye Malt (250.0 SRM)	Grain	12	3.6 %	0.04 gal

Boil Ingredients

Amt​	Name​	Type​	#​	%/IBU​	Volume​
0.50 oz	Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min	Hop	13	12.5 IBUs	-
3.20 g	Calcium Chloride (Boil)	Water Agent	14	-	-
2.96 g	Baking Soda (Boil)	Water Agent	15	-	-
1.65 g	Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Boil)	Water Agent	16	-	-
0.94 g	Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Boil)	Water Agent	17	-	-
0.50 oz	Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Boil 30.0 min	Hop	18	9.6 IBUs	-
2.00 oz	Fuggle [4.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min	Hop	19	5.8 IBUs	-

Fermentation Ingredients

Amt​	Name​	Type​	#​	%/IBU​	Volume​
13 g	LA-01 (Lallemand #LA-01)	Yeast	20	-	-

NOTES​

Mash Steps

Name​	Description​	Step Temperature​	Step Time​
Mash In	Add 30.25 qt of water at 163.1 F	156.0 F	45 min
Mash Out	Heat to 168.0 F over 2 min	168.0 F	10 min
Item	Target	Actual
Strike	164	164
Mash In (F)	156	155.5
Mash pH	5.40	5.56
Mash Notes	Used only HLT for first time. Set wort pump to turn off at 158 MT inlet as safety.
Sparge	Sparge with 8.43 gal water at 168.0 F
Mash Out	168	168
Pre-Boil	14.06 gal @ 1.027 SG	13.75 gal @ 1.028
Post-Boil	13.54 gal @ 1.029 SG	13.5 @ 1.032
OG	12.00 gal @ 1.029 SG	12 @ 1.032
FG	1.026 SG	1.025
Packaging	Pasteurized keg, Force Carbonated CO2, 9 psig serving pressure

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

∞ Wise NAWPA

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 6.00 gal
Boil Size: 7.81 gal
Boil Time: 30 min
End of Boil Vol: 7.29 gal

Date: 18 Feb 2022
Efficiency: 75.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 87.5 %
Color: 4.1 SRM
IBU: 38.1 IBUs Tinseth
OG Est: 1.027 SG
FG Est: 1.024 SG
BU/GU: 1.401
Calories: 105.4 kcal/12oz


Taste Notes:

Also great head retention. Surprising amount of Citra aroma and flavor still present. Had suspected to lose more with the pasteurization process. A fellow brewer made the suggestion of dry hopping just prior to the pasteurization step as a second pseudo hop stand. May have to try and do that on the next batch of a hop forward NA. Hesitant to dry hop after pasteurization. Some bitterness, would put it at pale ale level of bitterness. Up the bittering additions next time by about 20%.

INGREDIENTS​

Water Prep

Amt​	Name​	Type​	#​	%/IBU​	Volume​
8.75 gal	Distilled Water	Water	1	-	-
6.45 g	Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash)	Water Agent	2	-	-
1.96 g	Calcium Chloride (Mash)	Water Agent	3	-	-
1.26 g	Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Mash)	Water Agent	4	-	-
1.02 g	Salt (Mash)	Water Agent	5	-	-
0.40 ml	Lactic Acid (Mash)	Water Agent	6	-	-

Mash Ingredients

Amt​	Name​	Type​	#​	%/IBU​	Volume​
3 lbs	Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM)	Grain	7	52.2 %	0.23 gal
2 lbs 8.0 oz	Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM)	Grain	8	43.5 %	0.20 gal
4.0 oz	Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM)	Grain	9	4.3 %	0.02 gal

Boil Ingredients

Amt​	Name​	Type​	#​	%/IBU​	Volume​
0.50 oz	Warrior [17.70 %] - Boil 30.0 min	Hop	10	23.2 IBUs	-
0.50 oz	Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.60 %] - Boil 10.0 min	Hop	11	7.8 IBUs	-
3.00 oz	Mosaic – steep/whirlpool @160F	Hop	12	7.2 IBUs	-

Fermentation Ingredients

Amt​	Name​	Type​	#​	%/IBU​	Volume​
13 g	LA-01 (Lallemand #LA-01)	Yeast	13	-	-

NOTES​

Name​	Description​	Step Temperature​	Step Time​
Mash In	Add 28.80 qt of water at 159.1 F	156.0 F	45 min
Item	Target	Actual
Strike	[email protected]	[email protected]
Mash In (F)	156	164
Mash pH	5.40	5.3
Mash Notes	Had mash water calculated at 7.2 qt for mineral additions but used 7.2 gallon and didn't realize it. Adjusted mineral additions about halfway through. Mashed a bit high for about 5 minutes, then forgot to turn back on HLT and let mash drop down to 149F by 25 min in. Turned HLT on and by around 30 min in, back up to 156F
Sparge	Sparge with 1.55 gal water at 168.0 F
Mash Out
Pre-Boil	7.81 gal @ 1.024 SG	1.022 @ 7.4 gal
Post-Boil	7.29 gal @ 1.027 SG	1.025, didn't take volume
OG	6.00 gal @ 1.027 SG	6.5 gal
FG	1.024 SG	1.021
Packaging	Pasteurize keg. Serving pressure 10 psig

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

Has anyone attempted a brew or planning one?

 

[DuncB]

@Cool_Hand_Luke
Yes it's in my imminent plans, had to catch up with some other beers first as I was unable to brew for 6 weeks and I wanted to coordinate a LA brew with another so that I could use the spent LA grains as an adjunct in that brew.

 

[kcpup]

@Cool_Hand_Luke did you send me the yeast? If so i didn't get it. I have been brewing a number of ULA beers with good success. I have a NA NEIPA recipe ready to brew when I get the NA-01. Cheers

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

@Cool_Hand_Luke
Yes it's in my imminent plans, had to catch up with some other beers first as I was unable to brew for 6 weeks and I wanted to coordinate a LA brew with another so that I could use the spent LA grains as an adjunct in that brew.

Cool! I actually just did the same here today with the spent grains from a saison.

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

@Cool_Hand_Luke did you send me the yeast? If so i didn't get it. I have been brewing a number of ULA beers with good success. I have a NA NEIPA recipe ready to brew when I get the NA-01. Cheers

I have not yet. I’ve been a bit anal about the repackaging process to avoid any cross contamination so it takes a fair bit of set up to do a repackaging run. I’ve been waiting to see if there were any other requests.

I’ll get it packaged and sent in the next two weeks though. Haven’t forgotten you!

 

[DuncB]

Cool! I actually just did the same here today with the spent grains from a saison.

Do you mean for a saison? I'm not sure there's enough sugar left in my normal beer mash with a 88 % mash efficiency and 87% brewhouse on my last saison.

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

I only run about 80-83% mash efficiency or so depending on how fast I lauter. Combine that with doing a 12 gallon batch and then only running 5ish gallons of additional sparge water over the grains for the NA batch, I wound up with 1.024 wort for the NA bonus brew.

 

[DuncB]

That sounds like a good way to do it. I'm going the other way and will add the grains to another set of fresh grains to remash them whilst the others mash.

 

[jj_nash]

OK, so it seems that there has been some interest in this yeast, but without the availability of smaller quantities, a limited number of folks that have been able to try and test it. I was also having trouble even finding it in 500g quantities here in the United States. In any case, I've ordered a 500g block from Belgium, and given the quantity, I'll never get through that on my own.

Enter this thread.

Concept:

1. If you are interested in trying the yeast, respond here and then PM me. If you are "in", I'll send you some for the price of postage free (due to the weight it will be less than 0.80 USD to mail). I'm not looking to re-coup cost on the yeast, mainly interested to see what people here can do with it. We've got a creative bunch here!
2. I'll be packaging up 12.5g vacuum sealed packages for innoculating 5-6 gallons of wort. The recommended pitching rate from Fermentis is 0.5 - 0.8 g/L. It is not recommended to make a starter due to the higher potential for contamination. I'll leave more info on the repackaging procedure further down.
3. Expectation will be that those receiving some of the yeast will post back recipes, procedures, results, tasting notes, and any mishaps to this thread to explore the options for this new yeast.
4. I've got enough to send out 25-30 12.5g packets to people. We'll see how much interest there is, but feel free to let me know if you want more than one packet to do additional testing.
5. Lastly, housekeeping item on the thread. This is intended for those wanting to experiment with this yeast, brainstorm on how to use it, discuss procedures, share recipes and notes, etc. It isn't intended to be a debate thread on the merits of low/no alcohol beer.

Resources/Info:

From Fermentis:
SafBrew™ LA-01, is a Saccharomyces cerevisiae var. chevalieri that has been specifically selected for the production of low and/or non-alcoholic beverages (<0.5ABV). This yeast does not assimilate maltose and maltotriose but assimilates simple sugars (glucose, fructose and sucrose) and is characterized by a subtle aroma profile. Yeast with a medium sedimentation: forms no clumps but a powdery haze when resuspended in the beer.

As the beer at the end of fermentation will contain a lot of residual fermentable sugars, it is mandatory to pasteurize the beer after packaging (between 80 and 120 PU). This yeast is not suitable for cropping and repitching. As a note, in webinar link below they dicuss that 50 PU is sufficient.

Product Info Sheet
Webinar: Technical Characteristics of SafSour™ LP 652 and SafBrew™ LA-01

General Info (much of this is in the webinar):

1. LA-01 is POF+, so capable of producing 4VG
2. Fermentis recommends an original gravity of 1.028 or lower for a 0.5% ABV or less beer
3. Repitching or propogation is not recommended
4. Pasteurization needs to happen after packaging

Yeast Re-packaging procedure:
Feel free to comment if you can think of a better way on this front, I want to make sure it gets to those interested un-contaminated.

Draft procedure:

1. Create empty vacuum sealed bags
2. Pasteurize empty bags in 63C (145F) water bath for 30 minutes
3. PPE: Gloves, mask, hat, sanitizer
4. Sanitize cutting implement for opening vacuum seal bags
5. Heat sanitize measuring spoon
6. Open bulk bag
7. Open empty vacuum sealed bag
8. Fill bag with 12.5g yeast (on scale)
9. Vacuum seal individual bag
10. Vacuum seal bulk bag (as needed)
11. Refrigerate
12. Mail

Let me know if you are interested. I'm excited to see what comes out of this!

Are you still offering to share this yeast with someone in west MN who would like to experiment with it? Thanks.

 

[staffordj]

@Cool_Hand_Luke are you still providing this yeast?
what is the consensus on using this yeast versus other low alcohol methods? I would like to make a batch, but don't have time to explore all the different techniques, so I am looking for a solid option to start. I am interested in a happy pale ale to start.

 

[DuncB]

@staffordj
Welcome, have a look at ultralowbrewing.com for some LA recipe / brew advice.
And read this thread.

 

[kcpup]

@staffordj

A good recipe to start out with is this one:


It's David Heath's Low Alcohol IPA. The vid description includes a link to his recipe. It will introduce you to ULA brewing with good details on how do a ~1% beer that tastes good. The ULA website is fantastic as well, with even MORE information.