Fermentis Safbrew LA-01 Recipe Testing - Low Alcohol

[Tom R]

I made another (hopefully) NA batch today, 3 gals of PA using the LA-01.

The previous batch (also with LA-01) attenuated 78%, way more than expected, so the FG was 1.005, 1.8% ABV. Not what I was expecting, so I kegged 3 gals and dumped the rest. It's pretty good for an NA, but my friend can't drink it, and I didn't want 6 gallons of it.

Today's batch was 1.011 OG. Using WY1272 I usually end up around 1.005, which is about .9% ABV, still higher than I like.

I'm currently running another forced fermentation test to see where this will end up, hopefully 1.007 or greater.

And yes, I really need to find another place to dry hoses... It's on the list.

 

[beersk]

@Tom R Your friend can't consume ANY amount of alcohol whatsoever? Does he know that there is, in fact, .4% abv in a ripe banana and various other foods/beverages? I feel like 1% would be of very little effect even from someone with a condition like liver disease or hepatitis. I know it's recommended to not consume any alcohol, but I would think very small amounts of a 1.8% abv beer would be fine. I've been doing a bit of reading on this lately myself as my liver enzymes are elevated and I'm currently on a 2 month break. I have been drink some kombucha and NA beers though. Maybe I shouldn't be doing even that...

I'm curious as to how the cold mashed beer turned out. What was the recipe? The 2 that I've done have started around 1.020 and finished around 1.008. They didn't turn out how I wanted, super super grainy tasting. I think more specialty malts are warranted for that method.

 

[Tom R]

Your friend can't consume ANY amount of alcohol whatsoever?

He drinks NA beer, but very little else.
He's survived pancreatic cancer, thanks to a very invasive Whipple procedure.

Let's just say his health is fragile, and he has been advised not to drink alcohol.

I'm curious as to how the cold mashed beer turned out. What was the recipe? The 2 that I've done have started around 1.020 and finished around 1.008. They didn't turn out how I wanted, super super grainy tasting. I think more specialty malts are warranted for that method.

It's really pretty good, I could drink this in place of a 5% beer APA and not feel deprived. Not grainy (but I've made others that were). It's better tasting than the .8% versions that I have made.

6 gal batch
11-3/4# 2-row
9.4 oz cara-pils
7.9 oz crystal 40
5.5 oz maltodextrin
2.0 oz carafa II
mash @60F, recirculate 45 minutes
sparge @60F to get 10 gal pre-boil
boil 45 minutes
steep all hops at 175F for 20 minutes
42g amarillo
42g mosaic
3.3g irish moss last 15 minutes
ferment LA-01 @ 70F for 8 days, cold crash
OG 1.019 FG 1.005 ABV 1.8%

 

[beersk]

Not grainy? That's encouraging. You only mashed for 45 minutes at 60F? I wonder if it's even necessary to mash over night and at refrigerator temps. If one could mash at room temp for an hour just to get the flavor and color out of the grains, that'd be an improvement. I do remember the 2 cold mashed beers I made last year having great head retention. I mashed those at about 45-50F overnight.
Obviously, cold mashed beers aren't going to be a perfect replacement for regular beers, but if we can get close, that would be wonderful. Having guilt-free pints is the goal.

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

Not grainy? That's encouraging. You only mashed for 45 minutes at 60F? I wonder if it's even necessary to mash over night and at refrigerator temps. If one could mash at room temp for an hour just to get the flavor and color out of the grains, that'd be an improvement. I do remember the 2 cold mashed beers I made last year having great head retention. I mashed those at about 45-50F overnight.
Obviously, cold mashed beers aren't going to be a perfect replacement for regular beers, but if we can get close, that would be wonderful. Having guilt-free pints is the goal.

Hey I saw your other post, would you like some of this yeast? Last I checked I still have… a lot. Let me know would be glad to send some your way.

 

[beersk]

Hey I saw your other post, would you like some of this yeast? Last I checked I still have… a lot. Let me know would be glad to send some your way.

I would take some. But I'm struggling to figure out how it's better than using something like Windsor or London Ale yeast for something with an OG of 1.020 for a cold mashed beer. My FGs have been around 1.007 or 1.008, which is good for me. I'm not sure it'd be worth you paying for shipping to send it to me.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I would take some. But I'm struggling to figure out how it's better than using something like Windsor or London Ale yeast for something with an OG of 1.020 for a cold mashed beer. My FGs have been around 1.007 or 1.008, which is good for me. I'm not sure it'd be worth you paying for shipping to send it to me.

It would be an interesting data point. I need to find a slot in my schedule to brew my batch (I think making an IPA with my harvested Chinook is next, then the Low/NA batch). I am thinking of making a 5 gal batch with a high mash temp (160F range) and fermenting half with S-33 and half with LA-01.

I am curious what approach would work better for a homebrewer...low temp mash, high temp mash, low attenuating yeast, or a combo of these?

 

[beersk]

It would be an interesting data point. I need to find a slot in my schedule to brew my batch (I think making an IPA with my harvested Chinook is next, then the Low/NA batch). I am thinking of making a 5 gal batch with a high mash temp (160F range) and fermenting half with S-33 and half with LA-01.

I am curious what approach would work better for a homebrewer...low temp mash, high temp mash, low attenuating yeast, or a combo of these?

You're right, it would be a good data point. I just mashed in on an Irish Red, 3.5 gallons, brew in a bag, mashing at 73F for 4ish hours, stirring as often as possible.
6lbs Maris Otter
8oz C40
8oz Special Roast
3oz Light Roasted Barley
.25oz US Goldings 30min FWH
.5oz US Goldings 5 min
Verdant IPA yeast

Benefit to working from home. It took no time at all to get mashed in. Just milled grains right into the kettle with the water and bag already in it. We'll see how it turns out. But I'm hoping to avoid the uber grainy flavor I got in my batches I made last year. If not, I'm not sure what I'll do going forward.

EDIT: My plan is to bring it to the 150s for about 30 minutes. Boil for 30 minutes. Then ferment and serve in a 5 gallon keg with a floating dip tube and serve on nitro. Looking forward to see how that turns out. Really simple process.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Hopefully giving this yeast a try is next on my brew schedule.

I came across a link to this site in a Facebook post: Home – Ultra Low Brewing - It looks like a good resource on a variety of Low/NA brewing topics. There are a handful of recipes on the site. There is a Raw NEIPA fermented with LA-01 that has some interesting ideas: Brewfather

 

[beersk]

Hopefully giving this yeast a try is next on my brew schedule.

I came across a link to this site in a Facebook post: Home – Ultra Low Brewing - It looks like a good resource on a variety of Low/NA brewing topics. There are a handful of recipes on the site. There is a Raw NEIPA fermented with LA-01 that has some interesting ideas: Brewfather

Thanks for posting. Are you going to join that site? It looks pretty new, not a lot of members.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Thanks for posting. Are you going to join that site? It looks pretty new, not a lot of members.

Not sure. I have it bookmarked to look closer at the articles and the forum posts. I am not sure if brewing one or two batches with the LA-01 yeast will be the end of my venture into Low/NA brewing or the start! For the past 2 years I have been devoting 1 of the 3 spots in my beer fridge to a keg of carbonated water. If I can make something enjoyable, maybe I an rotate NA beer into that spot!

 

[RossHB]

Hey Luke, I'd be interested in getting hold of some LA-01 - looking to try the raw NEIPA from the Ultra-Low brewing site above. Cant seem to PM you with details etc.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Hey Luke, I'd be interested in getting hold of some LA-01 - looking to try the raw NEIPA from the Ultra-Low brewing site above. Cant seem to PM you with details etc.

I am planning to make a 5-gallon batch, heavily influenced by that raw NEIPA recipe, this evening. The 172F mash temp scares me a bit, but I think I will mash in the 165F range. I am not 100% sure what to expect, but I have a grist of 2-Row, Oats and CaraFoam with a target OG of 1.022. I figure I can make this in my 5-gallon kettle on my stove and just top up the fermenter with water. I boiled the top up water this morning just to make sure it is sanitized.

I am using a hop schedule very similar to my last NEIPA that worked out well...Centennial, Citra and Mosaic in a whirlpool and Citra and Mosaic as a dry hop. I generally figure that it is hard to make a bad beer with Citra and Mosaic!

I am a little confused about pH adjustments. When and how much to add. I only have 10% Phosphoric, but I could get some stronger acid.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I got about 5.25 gallons into the fermenter at around 1.023. It is definitely not as sweet as a normal wort! I will document the recipe more as I see how it turns out. Hops were 2 oz Centennial + 1 oz Citra + 1 oz Mosaic for a 20 min steep at 180F. Dry hops will be 1.5 oz Citra + 1.5 oz Mosaic. With a 30 minute mash and no boil it still took about 3 hours from start to finish (with some cleaning left).

Wow...I just noticed the ferm temps on the Fermentis site are pretty wide: 10-25°C (50-77°F)! I have mine set at 66F.

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

Hey Luke, I'd be interested in getting hold of some LA-01 - looking to try the raw NEIPA from the Ultra-Low brewing site above. Cant seem to PM you with details etc.

RossHB,
I can send some your way. You are a new member so I think there is a bit of a lag before you can start PM’s. I’ll see if I can start one with you.

Welcome to HBT!

 

[CascadesBrewer]

How long has it taken for LA-01 to complete fermentation? The Fermentis webinar states 75 hours for final gravity at 20C. I have been around 19C / 66F. I bumped it up to 70F this morning.

I had a pretty decent krausen going from around 24 hours to 48 hours (I was gone for some of that time). The krausen has fallen back and activity is very light now at ~84 hours from yeast pitch. I took a gravity sample and taste last night. The 1.019 gravity seems crazy high, but that would put the beer at 0.53% ABV and 17% apparent attenuation, which is right on target. The sample tasted much better than I expected with lots of hop character and a background beer character that felt more like a 5%-ish beer.

 

[RossHB]

Quick question for now (I'm sure I'll have more) - did you pitch the yeast directly onto the wort or do a rehydration?

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Quick question for now (I'm sure I'll have more) - did you pitch the yeast directly onto the wort or do a rehydration?

I tend to direct pitch dry yeast and I direct pitched this time as well. LA-01 has the E2U label: Easy To Use

"When it comes to yeast, E2U™ certification means you can choose to pitch directly into the wort, or proceed to rehydration. It makes no difference, it’s up to you. We guarantee the same results."

I watched a Fermentis webinar where they showed data that their yeast performed better when "rehydrated" in wort than in water.

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

How long has it taken for LA-01 to complete fermentation? The Fermentis webinar states 75 hours for final gravity at 20C. I have been around 19C / 66F. I bumped it up to 70F this morning.

I had a pretty decent krausen going from around 24 hours to 48 hours (I was gone for some of that time). The krausen has fallen back and activity is very light now at ~84 hours from yeast pitch. I took a gravity sample and taste last night. The 1.019 gravity seems crazy high, but that would put the beer at 0.53% ABV and 17% apparent attenuation, which is right on target. The sample tasted much better than I expected with lots of hop character and a background beer character that felt more like a 5%-ish beer.

The one batch I’ve done so far was done in about that time. I think I let it sit for a week though just do to life constraints.

I was also surprised by the amount of yeast character it produced with so little fermentation.

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

I tend to direct pitch dry yeast and I direct pitched this time as well. LA-01 has the E2U label: Easy To Use

Same here. Sprinkled on top of wort.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Kegged my beer today. It is a bit early to call success or failure, but I also had attenuation issues and ended up with ~1.3% ABV and 43% attenuation.

After the picture above where the beer was a 1.023, I started noticing signs of fermentation (bubbles and CO2 production). I took another reading and it had dropped only 1 point to 1.022. I started seeing more bubbles and more CO2 production. I debated if I should just let it go for another week or to move forward and dry hop and keg. So I dry hopped for 2 days, cold crashed for 1 day and kegged it today.

There is astringency from the hops that I expect will clear over the next week. It does have some nice hop character. The base beer is a bit thin with a slight phenolic note. I am not sure if the extra attenuation came from some holdover brewers yeast, or from something wild. I feel like my sanitization game is pretty solid, but maybe a batch like this is a good test.

Even if the beer flops, I used up some hops from my freezer and should have a pretty beer to post pictures on Instagram!

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

I think I’m nearing the end of the keg on my first batch. Decided to degas some and take a gravity measurement. It was down to 1.020 from 1.024 when I kegged it and bulk pasteurized the keg. That puts it at 0.9% ABV. Still tastes good and pretty low ABV still but no longer meeting the legal requirement of NA.

One thing I didn’t do was sanitize the serving line, interior of ball lock connector, or the tap. Keg has been kept cold. I think this is a reasonable example of how critical keeping other yeast exposure away from these beers. Still plenty of maltose waiting there for some lucky yeast.

 

[Radiojoe]

OK, so it seems that there has been some interest in this yeast, but without the availability of smaller quantities, a limited number of folks that have been able to try and test it. I was also having trouble even finding it in 500g quantities here in the United States. In any case, I've ordered a 500g block from Belgium, and given the quantity, I'll never get through that on my own.

Enter this thread.

Concept:

1. If you are interested in trying the yeast, respond here and then PM me. If you are "in", I'll send you some for the price of postage free (due to the weight it will be less than 0.80 USD to mail). I'm not looking to re-coup cost on the yeast, mainly interested to see what people here can do with it. We've got a creative bunch here!
2. I'll be packaging up 12.5g vacuum sealed packages for innoculating 5-6 gallons of wort. The recommended pitching rate from Fermentis is 0.5 - 0.8 g/L. It is not recommended to make a starter due to the higher potential for contamination. I'll leave more info on the repackaging procedure further down.
3. Expectation will be that those receiving some of the yeast will post back recipes, procedures, results, tasting notes, and any mishaps to this thread to explore the options for this new yeast.
4. I've got enough to send out 25-30 12.5g packets to people. We'll see how much interest there is, but feel free to let me know if you want more than one packet to do additional testing.
5. Lastly, housekeeping item on the thread. This is intended for those wanting to experiment with this yeast, brainstorm on how to use it, discuss procedures, share recipes and notes, etc. It isn't intended to be a debate thread on the merits of low/no alcohol beer.

Resources/Info:

From Fermentis:
SafBrew™ LA-01, is a Saccharomyces cerevisiae var. chevalieri that has been specifically selected for the production of low and/or non-alcoholic beverages (<0.5ABV). This yeast does not assimilate maltose and maltotriose but assimilates simple sugars (glucose, fructose and sucrose) and is characterized by a subtle aroma profile. Yeast with a medium sedimentation: forms no clumps but a powdery haze when resuspended in the beer.

As the beer at the end of fermentation will contain a lot of residual fermentable sugars, it is mandatory to pasteurize the beer after packaging (between 80 and 120 PU). This yeast is not suitable for cropping and repitching. As a note, in webinar link below they dicuss that 50 PU is sufficient.

Product Info Sheet
Webinar: Technical Characteristics of SafSour™ LP 652 and SafBrew™ LA-01

General Info (much of this is in the webinar):

1. LA-01 is POF+, so capable of producing 4VG
2. Fermentis recommends an original gravity of 1.028 or lower for a 0.5% ABV or less beer
3. Repitching or propogation is not recommended
4. Pasteurization needs to happen after packaging

Yeast Re-packaging procedure:
Feel free to comment if you can think of a better way on this front, I want to make sure it gets to those interested un-contaminated.

Draft procedure:

1. Create empty vacuum sealed bags
2. Pasteurize empty bags in 63C (145F) water bath for 30 minutes
3. PPE: Gloves, mask, hat, sanitizer
4. Sanitize cutting implement for opening vacuum seal bags
5. Heat sanitize measuring spoon
6. Open bulk bag
7. Open empty vacuum sealed bag
8. Fill bag with 12.5g yeast (on scale)
9. Vacuum seal individual bag
10. Vacuum seal bulk bag (as needed)
11. Refrigerate
12. Mail

Let me know if you are interested. I'm excited to see what comes out of this!

Hi, I am a newer homebrewer looking into making a darker NA spiced beer/gruit for a small get together with some friends in June of this year. For this I intend to try and put together a 5 gal. test batch consisting of a majority wheat, with some chocolate and crystal malt, wort alongside heather tips, mugwort, Irish Moss, and a small amount of fuggle hops, and then a 5 gal. final batch with any necessary changes. Do you still have any LA 01 yeast which I could use for this project? I fully intend to post both of my results after the fact.

 

[DuncB]

@Radiojoe
Welcome, have a look at ultralowbrewing.com for some LA recipe / brew advice.
I haven't been able to do a test brew yet with my samples as my brewsystem currently awaiting a part.

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

@Radiojoe Yes I've still got a stockpile of the yeast. I am also woefully behind in getting it shipped out to folks. But I'll shoot you a PM so you can send me details for shipping.

Sounds like some really cool batches you have planned. Second to DuncB's recommendation on reading that other site. Really great info on that site.

You may want to pop over to this thread to see if folks can give you advise on herb beers. With LA-01 you'll end up with under attenuated beer so it will be taste sweeter. So you may want to up the bitterness a bit to balance the sweetness a bit.

I'd also recommend to brew it as close to the point of the event date as possible, I've personally found it difficult to keep these beers in the <0.5% ABV as they sit on tap. Also if you have anyone at the event that cannot consume alcohol, you'll want to be very clear that it's possible the beer contains above 0.5% ABV.

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with!

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I ended up putting up a video about my attempt to make a No/Low ABV Hazy IPA:


Summary: The beer is not terrible but also not great. It looks great, and has a nice hoppy aroma, but the taste is overwhelmed by astringency. I am not 100% sure if this is just hop astringency. I used a lot of hops and I hit around 50% attenuation (vs the planned 15%), so there is little body and sweetness to back up the amount of hops used.

I am not sure what caused the extra attenuation. I have read that small amounts of residual brewers yeast can cause this. It is also possible that something like some wild yeast took hold. Normally pitching a healthy amount of yeast will outcompete other yeasts, but since LA-01 leaves behind lots of fermentable sugars, there is more room for other yeasts to take hold.

I do also detect a little phenolic character on the aroma and taste. LA-01 is reported to be POF+ but produces very little phenolic character. That could be another sign that a wild yeast helped out with the fermentation.

I would like to cycle back to brewing a No/Low ABV beer. I probably should have gone with my initial ideas to brew something like an English Mild or a lightly hopped Pale Ale style beer. I am curious about using a low attenuating yeast like Windsor or S-33 combined with a very high mash temp (around 170F).

 

[AntDoctor]

@Cool_Hand_Luke, any chance I can get some too? I'll PM you as well!

 

[kcpup]

Also sent PM - would LOVE some of the LA-01. I've been doing Lower Alcohol beer - about 3-3.5% for years, but haven't felt like I could go lower and keep it "beery" enough. I really like Sam Adams "Just The Haze" and want to make one myself!

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

@AntDoctor , @Radiojoe , @BrokenBrew , @z28tt , @beersk. Your yeast has shipped!

@kcpup I'll hit you on the next round of packaging.

I've also got 2 more batches under the belt now. One is carbonating now. Will post recipes and notes once I have some time.

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

I ended up putting up a video about my attempt to make a No/Low ABV Hazy IPA:


Summary: The beer is not terrible but also not great. It looks great, and has a nice hoppy aroma, but the taste is overwhelmed by astringency. I am not 100% sure if this is just hop astringency. I used a lot of hops and I hit around 50% attenuation (vs the planned 15%), so there is little body and sweetness to back up the amount of hops used.

I am not sure what caused the extra attenuation. I have read that small amounts of residual brewers yeast can cause this. It is also possible that something like some wild yeast took hold. Normally pitching a healthy amount of yeast will outcompete other yeasts, but since LA-01 leaves behind lots of fermentable sugars, there is more room for other yeasts to take hold.

I do also detect a little phenolic character on the aroma and taste. LA-01 is reported to be POF+ but produces very little phenolic character. That could be another sign that a wild yeast helped out with the fermentation.

I would like to cycle back to brewing a No/Low ABV beer. I probably should have gone with my initial ideas to brew something like an English Mild or a lightly hopped Pale Ale style beer. I am curious about using a low attenuating yeast like Windsor or S-33 combined with a very high mash temp (around 170F).

Great video! I did a Rye brown ale with a fellow brewer a bit ago and just did a wheat pale ale. Will post both recipes when I have some time to get the notes in legible format.