Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
What is your favorite fermentation temperature for this yeast when making a Bitter, Best Bitter, or ESB?
Fermentation temperature recommendation for Windsor dry yeast?
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Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
As it happens, I've got my first Windsor in the fermenter at the moment, so time will tell. But I'd refer you to this thread for temperature profiles for any British yeast.
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Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
Do follow up. What 'nominal' temperature (or temperature profile) did you choose for your fermentation?
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
It's perfect brewing weather at the moment - outside temperatures around 16-21C in daytime, down to about 12C at night. Cupboard in the garage has slight diurnal variations around 15C air temp, wort is a bit more than that, the fluctuations help draw out a bit more character than if it was constant. It's not really a test of Windsor, I had some open from a biotransformation test and needed a more normal yeast to compare my kveik bog myrtle beer against.
Per Lallemand: The optimal temperature range for Windsor yeast when producing traditional styles is 15°C(59°F) to 22°C(72°F) I don't do much high side or low side to try to influence esters etc. So I aim for the middle or in this case about 65 degrees.
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Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
Thanks! Since I'll be pitching a 50/50 blend (1 pack each) of Windsor and S-04 in my upcoming oatmeal and milk stout I'm going to set the fridge temperature at 64 degrees (+/- 1) so it (hopefully) never gets above 65 degrees. I want to achieve a moderate level of esters without getting into any funky off flavors (of the kind that S-O4 is famous for). 64 degrees should work well for both yeasts.
Does anyone know if there is any truth to the rumor that Windsor and S-33 are the same strain? Is there a liquid yeast that either of these can be highly correlated to?
Does anyone know if there is any truth to the rumor that Windsor and S-33 are the same strain? Is there a liquid yeast that either of these can be highly correlated to?
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Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Yes. Or at least, Windsor and S-33 seem to be very closely related siblings, that look like the same progenitor has been kept in two separate labs. One caveat is that is according to the 1002 Genomes project, whose labelling is not 100% reliable, so I won't completely believe it until I've done some fingerprinting myself, but I'd be 99% confident.
Supposedly they represent the old EDME yeast, which was a staple of British homebrewing in the 1980s, and which may also be represented by the ordinary (not Gold) Munton's yeast, which is half the price of S-33 and a third of the price of Windsor (at least in the UK), so that may be a better bet if you find yourself using it a lot. Munton's also seem to sell it to LHBS's as a house yeast for even less, and it may well be the Brupak ale yeast that the cider people like so much.
Oh, and folklore has it that Windsor, Danstar ESB and Nottingham were all isolated from the same brewery multistrain. Notty is completely unrelated (but DNA suggests it is very closely related to WLP039 East Midlands), but it would be normal for a brewery to have a clean, floccy yeast and an estery non-floccy yeast in their multistrain, so that's plausible. One of isomerizations PCRs suggested that Danstar ESB is very close to Windsor, but that would need more work to confirm.
However, Windsor and S-33 have a lousy reputation among North American beer brewers, so I'm not aware of anyone doing anything remotely close in liquid form. They're in a funny group of yeasts with really mashed-up genomes, 1318 seems to be similar - but obviously brews somewhat differently. But S-33/Windsor does seem to be effectively a POF- mutant of T-58 - if you look at the Fermentis data for S-33 and T-58 they're really similar for things like ester production and attenuation. T-58 is interesting as I've had great biotransformation of Chinook with it, so it would be interesting to see if Windsor has similar activity. I rather messed up my experimental design, but it did seem to turn Bravo more citrussy as far as I could tell.
Funny that you're the third person to mention milk stout on HBT in the last 48 hours - I will refer you to the granddaddy of all milk stouts, the Anchor or Urquell of the style, Mackeson. Its recipe is a long way from what homebrewers now seem to think a milk stout looks like.
Supposedly they represent the old EDME yeast, which was a staple of British homebrewing in the 1980s, and which may also be represented by the ordinary (not Gold) Munton's yeast, which is half the price of S-33 and a third of the price of Windsor (at least in the UK), so that may be a better bet if you find yourself using it a lot. Munton's also seem to sell it to LHBS's as a house yeast for even less, and it may well be the Brupak ale yeast that the cider people like so much.
Oh, and folklore has it that Windsor, Danstar ESB and Nottingham were all isolated from the same brewery multistrain. Notty is completely unrelated (but DNA suggests it is very closely related to WLP039 East Midlands), but it would be normal for a brewery to have a clean, floccy yeast and an estery non-floccy yeast in their multistrain, so that's plausible. One of isomerizations PCRs suggested that Danstar ESB is very close to Windsor, but that would need more work to confirm.
However, Windsor and S-33 have a lousy reputation among North American beer brewers, so I'm not aware of anyone doing anything remotely close in liquid form. They're in a funny group of yeasts with really mashed-up genomes, 1318 seems to be similar - but obviously brews somewhat differently. But S-33/Windsor does seem to be effectively a POF- mutant of T-58 - if you look at the Fermentis data for S-33 and T-58 they're really similar for things like ester production and attenuation. T-58 is interesting as I've had great biotransformation of Chinook with it, so it would be interesting to see if Windsor has similar activity. I rather messed up my experimental design, but it did seem to turn Bravo more citrussy as far as I could tell.
Funny that you're the third person to mention milk stout on HBT in the last 48 hours - I will refer you to the granddaddy of all milk stouts, the Anchor or Urquell of the style, Mackeson. Its recipe is a long way from what homebrewers now seem to think a milk stout looks like.
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Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
Thanks for this and all of the Windsor/S-33/Muntons yeast info. Muntons original (standard, not gold) yeast is dirt cheap here also. What's the history of the Munton's Gold (premium) yeast?
Edit: Your recipe link does not work for me.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Not sure about the Gold, it's not one that people talk about much. But I know they push the ordinary as their extract yeast and Gold as their all-grain yeast, which suggests low and high attenuation respectively. We know it won't be anything terribly high-tech, quite the opposite. From what I can work out it's not as clean as Notty, so something in the ballpark of S-04 would seem likely.
I've got my hands on the yeast from a Northern Brewer (the other one!) extract kit and it looks like a Munton's pack - if Munton's are selling to NB in volume then their yeast should be readily available Stateside. I must emphasise that the Munton link is pure conjecture at this point, although it's on my list of things to play with.
Sorry about the link, it had grown an extra http, now fixed.
I've got my hands on the yeast from a Northern Brewer (the other one!) extract kit and it looks like a Munton's pack - if Munton's are selling to NB in volume then their yeast should be readily available Stateside. I must emphasise that the Munton link is pure conjecture at this point, although it's on my list of things to play with.
Sorry about the link, it had grown an extra http, now fixed.
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Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
Got the recipe. Thanks!!! Would Invert #3 be in line with Lyle's Black Treacle, or more like their Golden Syrup? I should be able to get this brand in the USA, but it's very expensive.
This is the entirety of the description on Northern Brewer's website:
Medium attenuation, low flocculation. Good all-purpose ale yeast. Optimum temp: 57°-77° F
Additional information
SKU Y001
Yeast Disclaimer We strongly recommend ordering dry yeast in the summer months. We do include complimentary ice packs with all liquid yeasts. It is difficult to guarantee that the ice packs will survive the trip given transit times and particularly hot temperatures.
Yeast Format Dry
Flocculation Low-Medium
Min Fermenting Temp 57
Max Fermenting Temp 77
From Munton's website:
Muntons Brewer’s Yeast
Muntons brewer’s yeast has been a popular favourite for many years amongst the homebrew community worldwide, gaining an enviable reputation for its consistent healthy performance, its hardy nature and its clean finish.
Muntons brewer’s yeast is a dried brewer’s yeast that produces a powdery flocculation with an apparent attenuation of 70%. Ideal fermentation temperature is between 64° – 70°F to produce an alcohol tolerance of 8% ABV. It provides low ester formation but with relatively high residual sugar giving good body and mouth feel.
Not very descriptive.
In the US Munton's is not very popular. It may be different in other nations.
IMO, especially with their kits you are looking at entry level brewing. The fact that they market a beerkit enhancer means to me that their kits are not for serious home brewers.
Medium attenuation, low flocculation. Good all-purpose ale yeast. Optimum temp: 57°-77° F
Additional information
SKU Y001
Yeast Disclaimer We strongly recommend ordering dry yeast in the summer months. We do include complimentary ice packs with all liquid yeasts. It is difficult to guarantee that the ice packs will survive the trip given transit times and particularly hot temperatures.
Yeast Format Dry
Flocculation Low-Medium
Min Fermenting Temp 57
Max Fermenting Temp 77
From Munton's website:
Muntons Brewer’s Yeast
Muntons brewer’s yeast has been a popular favourite for many years amongst the homebrew community worldwide, gaining an enviable reputation for its consistent healthy performance, its hardy nature and its clean finish.
Muntons brewer’s yeast is a dried brewer’s yeast that produces a powdery flocculation with an apparent attenuation of 70%. Ideal fermentation temperature is between 64° – 70°F to produce an alcohol tolerance of 8% ABV. It provides low ester formation but with relatively high residual sugar giving good body and mouth feel.
Not very descriptive.
In the US Munton's is not very popular. It may be different in other nations.
IMO, especially with their kits you are looking at entry level brewing. The fact that they market a beerkit enhancer means to me that their kits are not for serious home brewers.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Golden syrup is roughly equivalent to invert #1, invert #3 is roughly equivalent to golden syrup with about 3.3% blackstrap. See here for more details on blending or how to make your own : http://www.unholymess.com/blog/beer-brewing-info/making-brewers-invert/
Lyle's seems to be quite expensive in brewing places, but relatively cheap in Brit-expat kind of places from what I can tell - here it's not much more expensive than the same weight of sugar. It's a standard thing in British kitchen cupboards - we don't get as daft about it as say Canadians do over maple syrup, but it is one of those tastes of home.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
I'm not quite sure what your point is in relation to whether their yeast is the same as Windsor.
Sure, their yeast is utterly unfashionable and has no "buzz" about it, but that's not really relevant to the question at hand.
As an aside, if it's the standard yeast in NB kits, then I'd guess it must be one of the biggest-selling dry yeasts in the US. Which would be one measure of "popularity".
How does it floc?
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Terribly - at least that's it's reputation, I can't judge mine yet. Hence why it makes a lot of sense co-pitching with something like Notty.
I heard actually quite different views about this yeast. One side says, terribly and one side says amazingly! I do not know myself, but I have two packs here in the fridge. Let me know how it turns out for you.
What attenuation do you expect?
What I was putting forth is that there is so little information about the yeasts, even on the Munton's site. Because I find no information on the style of yeast I don't know how to compare it to Windsor. So I find my replies "relevant".
BTW, I just looked at 5 extract kits on NB. One (a new one to me) "comes with yeast". The others have a drop down menu for you to choose your yeast, and those don't even offer Muntons. So I would not say that it is their standard yeast, nor that it says anything about the "popularity"
I also don't think it comes anywhere near one of the best selling dry yeasts in the US. I have never seen it in any of the homebrew stores that I have been to. Nor, until recently even seen it on a US online retailer.
Munton's was about the best yeast you could get when I started brewing (before Wyeast or White Labs existed). It was absolute crap. It ruined the reputation of all dry yeast -- a bad reputation that is still widely believed, despite the extremely high quality of Fermentis and Lallemand.
But that was a long time ago. Maybe their QC improved.
But that was a long time ago. Maybe their QC improved.
Don't forget about mangrove jack!
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Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
I'd certainly like to try their yeasts, but none of the LHBS within an hour drive of my house carry it. I guess I could have it delivered to me through the mail.
I haven't used them, but from the decidedly mixed HBT reports, I'm not completely convinced they belong in the same QC category as Fermentis and Lallemand.
Yes, I agree,I also read polarizing opinions here. But it looks like they are not so polarized anymore since they rebranded their yeasts. At least I never had problems with mj yeast, it was always reliable with good to very good results.
BrewnWKopperKat
(Ο_Ο)
I've brewed the Belgian Tripel from Brewing Classic Styles (small batch, all extract) a couple of times recently with M31 (Belgian Tripel yeast) instead of T-58. M31 makes a positive difference in the result. As always, YMMV.
