Feedback on my first saison recipe?

[worlddivides]

This will probably not be my next beer since I kind of want the ambient temperature a bit warmer before I make it, but I do plan to brew it within the next few months. I'll probably brew an IPA and maybe a stout before getting to this. Saisons are one of my wife's favorite beers, but oddly enough I've never brewed one before. On paper, the recipe I made seems like it could turn out pretty tasty, but I was hoping for some feedback from folks who regularly brew saisons.

Originally I had a more complex grain bill, but I thought that probably going more simple was the better choice in the end.

Water Chemistry Adjustments:
Half a Campden tablet
2 grams calcium chloride (dihydrate)
4 grams gypsum (calcium sulfate)
3 grams lactic acid

Fermentables:
2 kilograms of Weyermann Pilsner Malt (70.2%)
600 grams of Munich Malt (21.1%)
250 grams of honey (8.8%)

Mashed at: 65C for 1 hour

Other:
Servomyces - add last 10 minutes of boil
Whirlfloc - add last 5 minutes of boil
25 grams of bitter orange peel – add last 5 minutes of boil

Hops:
15 grams of East Kent Goldings (6.8% AA) for 60 minutes
15 grams of Hallertau Mittelfruh (3.5% AA) for 10 minutes

Fermented with Lallemand Farmhouse Hybrid Saison at 25C (77F) for 2 weeks

Kegged, then carbonated to 2.7 CO2 levels.

Estimated results of:
SRM: 4.3
IBUs: 27
Original Gravity: 1.048
Final Gravity: 1.007
ABV: 5.31%

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Seems good, simple grain bill as these should have.
I'd skip the orange peel and brew a test batch without first then add maybe half of your amount next time to try it out and have a baseline to make adjustments from.
What commercial saisons do you like? I like the really dry ones so I'd probably go with a diastatic yeast but that's just personal preferences.

 

[worlddivides]

Seems good, simple grain bill as these should have.
I'd skip the orange peel and brew a test batch without first then add maybe half of your amount next time to try it out and have a baseline to make adjustments from.
What commercial saisons do you like? I like the really dry ones so I'd probably go with a diastatic yeast but that's just personal preferences.

8.8% of the fermentables being honey and the 65C mash temperature are both attempts to get the beer pretty dry without using a diastatic yeast (I also like quite a few commercial saisons that I know use honey, which is why I'm using honey while I'd often use demerara in certain complex beers I've made or white sugar in ones I just want lighter with no real added flavor).

My favorite saisons do tend to be pretty dry, but I don't really want to mess with diastatic yeast. Hence the approach taken. Most of my favorite saisons do not add any orange peel or spices or herbs, so I am kind of on the fence about whether to add the orange peel or not (and I'll admit that 25g for a 14 liter batch is quite a bit), but I do like that orange peel character I've had in saisons that have it added, so it's... eh. Then again, this is the first saison I'll have ever brewed (while I've brewed hundreds of liters of IPAs, for example), so maybe I should just leave the orange peel out for the first one.

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

8.8% of the fermentables being honey and the 65C mash temperature are both attempts to get the beer pretty dry without using a diastatic yeast (I also like quite a few commercial saisons that I know use honey, which is why I'm using honey while I'd often use demerara in certain complex beers I've made or white sugar in ones I just want lighter with no real added flavor).

My favorite saisons do tend to be pretty dry, but I don't really want to mess with diastatic yeast. Hence the approach taken. Most of my favorite saisons do not add any orange peel or spices or herbs, so I am kind of on the fence about whether to add the orange peel or not (and I'll admit that 25g for a 14 liter batch is quite a bit), but I do like that orange peel character I've had in saisons that have it added, so it's... eh. Then again, this is the first saison I'll have ever brewed (while I've brewed hundreds of liters of IPAs, for example), so maybe I should just leave the orange peel out for the first one.

What I find is to not add a bunch of variables to a new recipe until I get the base recipe nailed down. To that point I agree with saving the orange addition till the next batch.

Looks like a good recipe. I brew a Saison often, very good brew to have on tap.

 

[AlexKay]

It does look good. I'm a little skeptical that any honey aroma will remain -- use a very strong varietal if you can get one (e.g., buckwheat, if you're ok with the color) -- so you could probably swap in table sugar and not notice a difference.

I've tried to make saison with Farmhouse and been pretty unhappy with the attenuation it gets. I had marginally better luck with Farmhouse when using glucoamylase in the fermenter (this is one of Lallemand's recommendations), but it still needs tweaking to get it dry enough. Maybe glucoamylase in the fermenter and the mash?

 

[mac_1103]

I had marginally better luck with Farmhouse when using glucoamylase in the fermenter (this is one of Lallemand's recommendations), but it still needs tweaking to get it dry enough.

Interesting. Gluco in the fermenter always gets me bone dry beer (as in FG < 1). My first attempt at using it in the mash is in the fermenter now (not a saison though). How much are you using and when are you adding it?

 

[AlexKay]

Interesting. Gluco in the fermenter always gets me bone dry beer (as in FG < 1). My first attempt at using it in the mash is in the fermenter now (not a saison though). How much are you using and when are you adding it?

4 grams per gallon at yeast pitch, two weeks at 72 F.

 

[worlddivides]

What I find is to not add a bunch of variables to a new recipe until I get the base recipe nailed down. To that point I agree with saving the orange addition till the next batch.

Looks like a good recipe. I brew a Saison often, very good brew to have on tap.

I removed the bitter orange after Erik's comment. I expect it should be tasty either way, but probably best to omit it for my first saison.

 

[worlddivides]

It does look good. I'm a little skeptical that any honey aroma will remain -- use a very strong varietal if you can get one (e.g., buckwheat, if you're ok with the color) -- so you could probably swap in table sugar and not notice a difference.

I've tried to make saison with Farmhouse and been pretty unhappy with the attenuation it gets. I had marginally better luck with Farmhouse when using glucoamylase in the fermenter (this is one of Lallemand's recommendations), but it still needs tweaking to get it dry enough. Maybe glucoamylase in the fermenter and the mash?

You're definitely right that the aroma from the honey will probably be mostly missing unless I use a strong varietal, but those tend to be pretty expensive, so I'm okay with the aroma being pretty muted. And since my main purpose for adding the honey is to dry it out, the difference between the honey and table sugar is probably pretty miniscule, yeah.

Although I know where I can buy amylase enzyme, I don't know of anywhere where I can get glucoamylase, so might not be an option. Does Farmhouse really have such bad attenuation that the honey addition and lower mash temps won't be enough?

 

[AlexKay]

You're definitely right that the aroma from the honey will probably be mostly missing unless I use a strong varietal, but those tend to be pretty expensive, so I'm okay with the aroma being pretty muted. And since my main purpose for adding the honey is to dry it out, the difference between the honey and table sugar is probably pretty miniscule, yeah.

Although I know where I can buy amylase enzyme, I don't know of anywhere where I can get glucoamylase, so might nobe an option. Does Farmhouse really have such bad attenuation that the honey addition and lower mash temps won't be enough?

I looked back at my notes. I did only two batches, both with a 150 F mash and no added sugar, and the second with the 4 g/gallon glucoamylase. The first was a fine beer but completely unsatisfactory as a saison, the second was closer but still not dry enough. My gut feeling is that a low mash and added sugar just won’t get you there, but how will you know until you try?

If you can get exogenous alpha amylase easily but not glucoamylase, it might be worth dumping a bunch of alpha into the mash.

Or you could up the honey?

Whatever you do, report back! We need more stories about what this yeast can and can’t do.

 

[DuncB]

I wouldn't have the honey doubt it will make the journey and just use dextrose. I've always used a diastatic yeast.

My saisons are pils malt, wheat malt and dextrose. Yeast OYL-026 and some elderflower umbels.

 

[worlddivides]

Since everyone seems to have very little faith in the beer getting dry enough, I've adjusted the recipe as such:

Fermentables:
1.9 kilograms of Weyermann Pilsner Malt (70.4%)
500 grams of Munich Malt (18.5%)
300 grams of table sugar (11.1%)

Mashed at: 65C for 1 hour

Hops:
15 grams of East Kent Goldings (6.8% AA) for 60 minutes
15 grams of Hallertau Mittelfruh (3.5% AA) for 10 minutes
10 grams of Hallertau Mittelfruh (3.5% AA) for 1 minute

Fermented with Lallemand Farmhouse Hybrid Saison at 25C (77F) for 2 weeks

Estimated results of:
SRM: 3.7
IBUs: 27
Original Gravity: 1.048
Final Gravity: 1.006
ABV: 5.49%

 

[worlddivides]

If you can get exogenous alpha amylase easily but not glucoamylase, it might be worth dumping a bunch of alpha into the mash.

Or you could up the honey?

Whatever you do, report back! We need more stories about what this yeast can and can’t do.

I can definitely get alpha amylase (not confident in being able to find glucoamylase anywhere), but I'm not sure how much it would boost the fermentability, if at all. Glucoamylase would definitely have a huge effect, but I assume alpha amylase enzyme is mainly for grains that don't naturally have enough enzymes for the starch conversion. And I doubt I'd need that with a grain bill entirely made up of Pilsner and Munich malt.

This beer will either be after my next brew or two brews after that (recipes which I haven't asked feedback on because they're totally in my wheelhouse), but I'll definitely try to remember to post photos and comments about how the flavor ends up, the dryness and so on.


EDIT: So I did find glucoamylase for sale, but the only places I could find selling it are pharmaceutical manufacturers and in bulk, so the cheapest I found off-hand was around $200. So not really going to be an option. I can get regular alpha amylase enzyme for pretty cheap, though. Not thinking I'll need it, but if even my adjusted recipe and low mash temp don't get me dry enough, I can try alpha amylase enzyme in the future.

 

[worlddivides]

I looked back at my notes. I did only two batches, both with a 150 F mash and no added sugar, and the second with the 4 g/gallon glucoamylase. The first was a fine beer but completely unsatisfactory as a saison, the second was closer but still not dry enough. My gut feeling is that a low mash and added sugar just won’t get you there, but how will you know until you try?

Also, for reference, 65C is 149F. So it's only 1F lower than your 150F mash, though if I just let the temp fall without reheating it (I normally wrap my kettle in a towel during the mash to prevent heat from escaping, but some heat does still escape), it could be between 140F and 145F by the end of the hour.

 

[Halfakneecap]

I do saison every year. Champagne bottles with very high carbonation is how i like them. Bone dry and earthy and spicy and bitter. I like them around 4-5%.

I like 30% Malted spelt and pils, a 90 minute mash at 62c, a high BU:GU ratio and wyeast 3726. I never have issues with brewing in the same fermenter after brewing with this yeast, or any other non brett yeast.

Its up to you how you want to do it really. Everyone likes them their own way. Saison Dupont is my fave saison. Wy 3724 is what most people use for this type of saison but i find 3726 has as much character but much more predictable and easy to use. Usually finish 1.004 or so

I don't think you need sugar to get it dry, but you can use it if you want to. I used to do a 2 hour mash but i find 90 mins at 62c enough.

 

[worlddivides]

I stopped using liquid yeast a long time ago after maybe 5 years of using liquid yeast more often than I used dry yeast (mainly for the wide variety available). I just find it way too expensive and with far more downsides than upsides. The actual quality of the beer made with dry and liquid yeast is exactly the same. Liquid yeast just provides a much wider variety of types of yeast, but I'm not concerned with that like I used to be.

If I was using a diastatic yeast, I probably wouldn't need sugar to get it dry, but since Farmhouse Hybrid Saison has the STA-1 gene bred out of it, I do kind of need sugar to get it noticeably dry.

 

[worlddivides]

I actually drank one of my favorite Japanese saisons tonight. Extremely bone dry. Nice moderate bitterness. Spicy esters with some nice spicy and earthy hoppiness. Japanese breweries legally need to write the ingredients on the label, and it said "Malt, sugars, hops." So it does seem that the added sugars are contributing to the dryness there as well, though it's likely a diastatic yeast and I have no idea what percentage of the fermentables were sugars (probably table sugar, but it's vague enough that it could be brown sugar or corn sugar). Another one of my favorite Japanese saisons has "honey" on the ingredients label and it's pretty dry, but not quite as dry as this one. Saison Dupont is one of my favorite "classic saisons," and they do say they add sugars as well, but it might just be for bottle conditioning.

 

[Halfakneecap]

Similar experience, i used only liquid for many years, but in the last few years dry yeast just seems to be much better. Wyeast 3726 for saison, and white labs 029 german ale are my only regular liquid yeast strains. Trying out Opshaug Kviek ( White labs ) at the moment but for lagers, S189 or S23 are great, and Verdant is another fave.

How would you describe the Farmhouse ? I have a sachet i want to try for a belgian blond

Keep us updated on the saison

 

[worlddivides]

Similar experience, i used only liquid for many years, but in the last few years dry yeast just seems to be much better. Wyeast 3726 for saison, and white labs 029 german ale are my only regular liquid yeast strains. Trying out Opshaug Kviek ( White labs ) at the moment but for lagers, S189 or S23 are great, and Verdant is another fave.

How would you describe the Farmhouse ? I have a sachet i want to try for a belgian blond

Keep us updated on the saison

This will be my first time using the Farmhouse Hybrid Saison yeast since this will be my first time brewing a saison. I've long been a massive fan of the style, but it's one of the few styles I enjoy that I've never brewed before. I've even brewed lambics and other time-intensive styles, but just never a saison. Although "saison" and "farmhouse" are in the name, that doesn't mean it's limited to saisons, of course, but I've heard that it's a lot like Belle Saison but with the STA-1 gene bred out, so it's like a non-diastatic version of Belle Saison. I'm pretty sure it was bred from a completely different yeast strain, though.

If I ever got back into using brettanomyces, lactobacillus, pediococcus, and so on, then I'd definitely at least use liquid yeasts for my sours and wild ales (sour blends and so on), but I don't see myself ever going back to using liquid yeasts as my main yeasts ever again. There are definitely a lot I want to try. If I moved back to the states, I'd definitely try out some liquid yeasts, but it'd probably still be something like 80-90% dry yeast and 10-20% liquid yeast (back in the day, I was probably like 60-70% liquid yeast, 30-40% dry yeast).

 

[johnsonpvb17]

Does anyone have any help on using Saisonstein OYL-500, the best fermenter temperature profile?

Thanks in advance.

 

[MikeCo]

I have used Farmhouse a couple times and it makes a nice saison. Adding some simple sugar helps get the FG down. The last one I did finished at 1.008, and it was a great beer. I didn't notice that it was any less dry tasting than saisons I've made that finish below 1.005.

 

[worlddivides]

I have used Farmhouse a couple times and it makes a nice saison. Adding some simple sugar helps get the FG down. The last one I did finished at 1.008, and it was a great beer. I didn't notice that it was any less dry tasting than saisons I've made that finish below 1.005.

That's great to know.

 

[Rfox2014]

interested in how your lallemand farmhouse saison turns out, OP. I ended up here searching for someone experimenting with this yeast and using alpha amylase in the mash to drive fermentability. Alpha amylase + sugar should get you there? You may not have brewed yet.. but interested to hear when you do

 

[worlddivides]

interested in how your lallemand farmhouse saison turns out, OP. I ended up here searching for someone experimenting with this yeast and using alpha amylase in the mash to drive fermentability. Alpha amylase + sugar should get you there? You may not have brewed yet.. but interested to hear when you do

Beta amylase, but yes (alpha amylase would lower fermentability - I always remember it as being kind of backwards since "beta" comes before "alpha" when going up in temperature).

I just brewed a dank/piney/resiny/citrusy West Coast IPA and I'm waiting for the temperatures to increase before doing the saison. I'll probably do the saison as my next beer or the one after that. I'm not sure whether I'll wait until summer to do it since I want to ferment at 77F and my BrewBelt will have trouble maintaining that temperature unless the ambient temperature is higher (I'm currently using the BrewBelt to maintain 66F to 68F for the IPA).

 

[Brewer dad]

Does anyone have any help on using Saisonstein OYL-500, the best fermenter temperature profile?

Thanks in advance.

Sample of one but in my notes from my saison from last year I let it drop below mid 60s and fermentation almost stopped. Brought it back up to high 60s/70 and kicked back up. Loved it, I need to revive it and make another back here soon.

 

[mac_1103]

Beta amylase, but yes (alpha amylase would lower fermentability - I always remember it as being kind of backwards since "beta" comes before "alpha" when going up in temperature).

Mashing high (in the alpha range) can produce a less fermentable wort, but that's because other enzymes are denatured before they can do their part and not because alpha amylase itself makes wort less fermentable. Adding an excess of alpha amylase, which is what @Rfox2014 was asking about, should increase fermentability.

 

[Rfox2014]

Beta amylase, but yes (alpha amylase would lower fermentability - I always remember it as being kind of backwards since "beta" comes before "alpha" when going up in temperature).

I just brewed a dank/piney/resiny/citrusy West Coast IPA and I'm waiting for the temperatures to increase before doing the saison. I'll probably do the saison as my next beer or the one after that. I'm not sure whether I'll wait until summer to do it since I want to ferment at 77F and my BrewBelt will have trouble maintaining that temperature unless the ambient temperature is higher (I'm currently using the BrewBelt to maintain 66F to 68F for the IPA).

Cheers. Thanks for replying back, looking forward to hearing about your saison

 

[worlddivides]

So I've been considering brewing this next, but I'm still a bit worried about whether my BrewBelt will be enough to keep the fermentation temp around 77-79F. Things had suddenly warmed up and we had 77F to 79F weather outside, but then it got super cold and now it's in the mid to upper 30s outside again.

I bring this up for two reasons, though. One is that my wife acted pretty blown away when she was trying a saison I really like. But this made me realize something I hadn't considered before. The saison she was blown away is a more "modern saison." Still super dry with lots of "farmhouse" yeast character, but it uses American hops like Cascade. This suddenly made me wonder whether I should just go that route instead of the more typical saison hop route. Personally, I love both modern and traditional saisons, and my wife has shown a great enjoyment of both, but I've started to think that the times she's expressed how delicious a saison is have been way more common with American / New World hops.

Also, thinking of maybe brewing this ahead of time and maybe just letting it stay in the fermenter for 3-5 weeks before kegging, which is something I very rarely do nowadays, but I have an impression that saisons might benefit from "age" more than most of the styles I commonly brew nowadays.

 

[DuncB]

Heat belt and cover the fermenter with blankets, sleeping bag etc and make sure it is insulated from the ground.
I find that my saisons are in the fermenter longer than other beers, I do have a dedicated Saison fermenter though and spund towards the end of the ferment.

 

[worlddivides]

Heat belt and cover the fermenter with blankets, sleeping bag etc and make sure it is insulated from the ground.
I find that my saisons are in the fermenter longer than other beers, I do have a dedicated Saison fermenter though and spund towards the end of the ferment.

Thanks. I think I'll probably keep it in the fermenter for 4-5 weeks before kegging when I usually only leave hoppy beers like IPAs in the fermenter for 8-10 days and styles such as stouts and brown ales in the fermenter for 2 to 2.5 weeks. I'm thinking I'll just use the hops in the recipe in this thread instead of American or New World hops, mainly just because the IPA currently on keg has a lot of American citrus hops in it.