Feedback on English Dark Mild Recipe?

[Miraculix]

I'm going to try my next English style ale(s) with somethign other than MO for the base malt. I have always loved MO, I think, but lately I'm not so sure. I have been getting a... rye sort of flavor, maybe peanuts out of my beers and I'm getting tired of it. I dropped the Victory from the last brew thinking that was it, but it didn't make a difference there.

Seems like a good place to ask if I'm the only one? I'd normally appreciate "nutty" but lately it's become distracting. I love crunching on a few grain kernels just before mash-in but I'm starting to lose favor with the final product.

(I think perhaps it was @DBhomebrew mentioned this in another thread and gave me an a-ha moment).

Don't know tbh. I've had great standard pale ale malt beers and great mo pale ale malt beers. I didn't taste much of a difference but also never did a side by side comparison.

You might get more answers in the English beer recipe thread though!

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...r-favorite-recipe.472464/page-92#post-9329456

 

[bwible]

I like MO but the sack I have now is Simpsons Best. I’m liking that one just as much.

 

[DBhomebrew]

I do like MO in a lot of beers, but I'm a thrifty brewer with little interest in keeping more than one 55# bag of malt. Where I enjoy MO in milds, browns, etc, I found the nuttiness to be distracting when I started aiming for clean, fresh, EKG-foward light bitters.

I had ordered a bag of Simpson's GP, but they mistakenly sent a bag of Best PA (Concerto). They ended up sending the GP too. I enjoy both very much. GP a little more sweet grainy, PA a little more bready-biscuity.

 

[Bramling Cross]

I'm going to try my next English style ale(s) with somethign other than MO for the base malt. I have always loved MO, I think, but lately I'm not so sure. I have been getting a... rye sort of flavor, maybe peanuts out of my beers and I'm getting tired of it. I dropped the Victory from the last brew thinking that was it, but it didn't make a difference there.

Seems like a good place to ask if I'm the only one? I'd normally appreciate "nutty" but lately it's become distracting. I love crunching on a few grain kernels just before mash-in but I'm starting to lose favor with the final product.

(I think perhaps it was @DBhomebrew mentioned this in another thread and gave me an a-ha moment).

Which maltster's MO are you using? I'm a fan of Warminster, not only because it is cheaper than either Simpson's or Crisp, but because it doesn't get quite as heavy at higher gravities. I think Simpson's and Crisp are designed to throw a lot of flavor into ~1.040 beers...and that can get to be a bit much when you start elevating beyond their 1.040 sweet spot.

Myself, I tend to stick to the 1.040-1.055 pocket and I find Warminster performs great within that gravity range. Around 1.050, and depending upon the style, I sometimes find it useful to reinforce it with 4oz of UK amber malt, or a pound of Breiss' Ashbourne Mild Malt--why can't we get UK mild malt in the States?! Dark Munich will work, in a pinch.

Lastly, consider your mash schedule. The longer I've brewed UK ales, the lower and more aggressive my mash schedules have become. Orthodoxy suggests that you should be doing a single rest at ~154F, but I've found that 145F for an hour, followed by a recirculation run at 158 for 30mins yields a satisfying, but as the Belgians would say, "digestible" beer.

That's going to make an overly thin beer, right? The trick, at least to my mind, is in how you treat your kegs. Carb them low, but amp up the gas for serving. When you're done, use the PRV to release your serving gas. Don't store your kegs on the gas. Learn the cellarmanship that makes the most of your beers.

That's what I think about this for now, a year from now I'll look back on this post with shame. And that's why I love UK ales so much. I'm always learning.

Edit: Also, who says you have to use MO as the entirety of your base malt grist? As Ron Pattinson has made clear, UK pale malt was frequently rivaled by, if not surpassed by, N. American malt, often 6-row. Feel free to use US 2-row or Continental malts to finesse your grain bill. You're not obligated to make your UK ales out of UK malts!

 

[tracer bullet]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I believe I've been using Warminster, but - it's the grain room at Midwest and with a few MO options near each other... there's always a chance of an error or substitution. I primarily use MO with a little medium (65-ish) and double roasted (120-ish) crystals (these could actually be what I'm tasting). Last batch had some #2 invert as well. Mash around 152 for an hour, OG 1.055-ish. Sits on about 12psi.

I'll give it all a thought, thanks again gents. Will probably first swap MO for GP or PA on the next brew, and scrutinize the crystals as well as candidates for the next brew if the base grain change doesn't take care of it. The rest will come next once I've got the flavor dialed in, or at least closer anyhow (is it ever perfect?).

 

[rhys333]

I've decided to have another go at making a pound of #2 invert.

This time I'm using quality jaggery as my base sugar and I'll be adding it to an upcoming ale made mostly of base malt to assess its influence. I'm intending this as a stepping stone to the next dark mild, assuming all goes well. Here's what I did today to make the #2 invert:

• Starting with 1lb jaggery (rather, 15.4 oz J + 0.6oz table sugar);
• Added 1 cup carbon-filtered water plus 1.5 ml 88% lactic acid;
• Heated to 144F on the stove and then transferred to oven for 110 minutes cook;
• Upon completion, I added 3.0g baking soda to neutralize. Then let foam 20 mins;
• Added 0.5 cups boiling water to calm the beast and thin out the syrup;
• Transferred to pint-sized mason jar ahead of brew day.

 

[CharlaineC]

looks tasty. Personally, I think brown malt tastes like ass, so leaving that out is a good thing. Can substitute biscuit if you like.

Ron Pattinson is pretty adament that mild's should have invert/brewing sugar to have the authentic taste. As ba-brewer linked to Lees best mild

If this is new, you can make your own invert: Making Brewers Invert | half a cat

Or, this may be heretical to some, use honey. Honey is something like 80-90% natural invert sugar. Boil to dirve off any honey tastes, and Bob's your uncle,

Updating the link here as the other isnt working. Invert Syrups: Making Your Own Simple Sugars for Complex Beers

 

[rhys333]

Interesting results from the jaggery invert #2.

The baking soda added at high heat (~135F) seems to have darkened the syrup, as pictured on the right in the attached photo. It smells and tastes complex as per description of #2.

I decided to make another batch, this time #1 invert using mostly table sugar (beet) plus a small amount of demerara. Weights: 400g + 54g.

I cooked the #1 for a total of 45 minutes at 144F, so with the demerara and time I expected it to turn out slightly darker than typical #1. I once again added my 3g b.soda at high temp after the heating process and again it seems to have darkened the final product. This is shown on the left in the attached image. It looks more like typical #2 to me. It smells and tastes quite neutral.

Based on this, I'm now wondering:

• Does the post-boil b.soda neutralization at HIGH heat cause a maillard reaction? Seems likely. Does it alter flavor and aroma aside from pH affects?
• Would a post-boil b.soda neutralization at LOW heat prevent darkening? How does flavor and aroma compare to the high heat version?

 

[Miraculix]

Interesting results from the jaggery invert #2.

The baking soda added at high heat (~135F) seems to have darkened the syrup, as pictured on the right in the attached photo. It smells and tastes complex as per description of #2.

I decided to make another batch, this time #1 invert using mostly table sugar (beet) plus a small amount of demerara. Weights: 400g + 54g.

I cooked the #1 for a total of 45 minutes at 144F, so with the demerara and time I expected it to turn out slightly darker than typical #1. I once again added my 3g b.soda at high temp after the heating process and again it seems to have darkened the final product. This is shown on the left in the attached image. It looks more like typical #2 to me. It smells and tastes quite neutral.

Based on this, I'm now wondering:

• Does the post-boil b.soda neutralization at HIGH heat cause a maillard reaction? Seems likely. Does it alter flavor and aroma aside from pH affects?
• Would a post-boil b.soda neutralization at LOW heat prevent darkening? How does flavor and aroma compare to the high heat version?

I've witnessed the same regarding the darkening due to baking soda addition at high heat. I could also taste a difference before and after the addition. I used it with 70% demerara and 30% or more unrefined sugar cane sugar. Especially the unrefined sugar comes with big molasses flavour, a bit like licorice, this part of the flavour got changed with the baking soda adition, at least according to my taste buds.

 

[rhys333]

I've witnessed the same regarding the darkening due to baking soda addition at high heat. I could also taste a difference before and after the addition. I used it with 70% demerara and 30% or more unrefined sugar cane sugar. Especially the unrefined sugar comes with big molasses flavour, a bit like licorice, this part of the flavour got changed with the baking soda adition, at least according to my taste buds.

I got the molasses/licorice flavor when I used one of the dark piloncillo raw sugars. Not a hint of it in either of these though. I'm contemplating brewing with that jaggery invert #2 today, if I can get a move-on. Just superior 2-row, a little flaked barley and the 1 lb #2 for about 10% of fermentables. Then hit it with a low attenuator like Windsor.

EDIT: 5:50pm brewing update

Brewed the following today. The LHBS was out of Windsor, so I went with London and mashed high.

INVERT 2 EXPERIMENTAL BREW
1.044-1.014, 3.9%, 25 IBU
81% Superior Pale Ale
12.5% Jaggery Invert #2 @ 60
6.5% Torrified Wheat
Bittering @ 60 to 22 IBU
30g Willamette @ 5
Lallemand London.

 

[rhys333]

I could also taste a difference before and after the addition.... Especially the unrefined sugar comes with big molasses flavour, a bit like licorice, this part of the flavour got changed with the baking soda adition, at least according to my taste buds.

Interesting. Did the high heat baking soda neutralization create the licorice flavor, or remove it?

 

[Miraculix]

Interesting. Did the high heat baking soda neutralization create the licorice flavor, or remove it?

It changed the licorice into something close, but not the same. Hard to describe. I think piloncillo and raw cane sugar is basically the same, so we are probably talking about the same flavour. Your plan with the windsor sounds good. I have done same type of recipes with other yeasts, about 25-30 ibus, 1.04ish og and moderate late addition plus using only noble hops (goldings ftw!) = marvelous bitter.

 

[rhys333]

I got the molasses/licorice flavor when I used one of the dark piloncillo raw sugars. Not a hint of it in either of these though. I'm contemplating brewing with that jaggery invert #2 today, if I can get a move-on. Just superior 2-row, a little flaked barley and the 1 lb #2 for about 10% of fermentables. Then hit it with a low attenuator like Windsor.

EDIT: 5:50pm brewing update

Brewed the following today. The LHBS was out of Windsor, so I went with London and mashed high.

INVERT 2 EXPERIMENTAL BREW
1.044-1.014, 3.9%, 25 IBU
81% Superior Pale Ale
12.5% Jaggery Invert #2 @ 60
6.5% Torrified Wheat
Bittering @ 60 to 22 IBU
30g Willamette @ 5
Lallemand London.

Drew a gravity sample today. FG is 1.004 which is 90% attenuation on London ale yeast!

First reaction: WTF? That's at least 20% over-attenuation.

 

[rhys333]

I got the molasses/licorice flavor when I used one of the dark piloncillo raw sugars. Not a hint of it in either of these though. I'm contemplating brewing with that jaggery invert #2 today, if I can get a move-on. Just superior 2-row, a little flaked barley and the 1 lb #2 for about 10% of fermentables. Then hit it with a low attenuator like Windsor.

EDIT: 5:50pm brewing update

Brewed the following today. The LHBS was out of Windsor, so I went with London and mashed high.

INVERT 2 EXPERIMENTAL BREW
1.044-1.014, 3.9%, 25 IBU
81% Superior Pale Ale
12.5% Jaggery Invert #2 @ 60
6.5% Torrified Wheat
Bittering @ 60 to 22 IBU
30g Willamette @ 5
Lallemand London.

18 hours on gas. Here's what the colour looks like with that pound of #2 jaggery invert.

I'm bummed that it fermented out to 90%, as I wanted to assess the mouthfeel on a 3.9% beer with invert. Kveik yeast used on a previous batch may be the culprit. Anyways, it's a full-bodied beer at ~5% abv and 1.004 FG, which says something.

No British character to speak of at this point, so I don't know what the invert is providing besides colour. I'll check again in a week or so after its had a chance to mature in the keg.

 

[rhys333]

It's been a couple months, but here's how the #2 invert looks in that basic golden promise ale. It definitely imparts colour and even a little flavor to the beer. Hopped a little heavier, it could make a decent bitter (recall it over-attenuated). I'll be doing this again with Windsor as I'm determined to see how well this works in a higher bodied lower abv beer.

 

[Beermeister32]

Looks fantastic.... !

 

[Miraculix]

Looks fantastic.... !

I agree!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Bubbles are too big, and CAMRA would never let you serve a pint that short...

 

[Miraculix]

Bubbles are too big, and CAMRA would never let you serve a pint that short...

Of course! That's what I meant.

 

[DuncB]

Bubbles are too big, and CAMRA would never let you serve a pint that short...

What about if one of these glasses
Designed with head room and legal.

 

[rhys333]

Bubbles are too big, and CAMRA would never let you serve a pint that short...

Funny you mention bubbles. I get that when foce carbing on keg. My bottle conditioned beers have smaller bubbles and denser foam.

 

[rhys333]

And thanks guys. Now I know what to expect from homemade invert made this way, I'll do the following on my next batch:

• Same inversion process (water+jaggery+acid, heat, b.soda at end). Extend cook time 30 - 45 min to obtain invert #3.
• Add 5 - 10% UK C60 or C80.
• Get the abv down below 4%

 

[Northern_Brewer]

What about if one of these glasses Designed with head room and legal.

Of course, lined glasses are a different matter, but there was no sign of a line on the original photo, and even if it was lined, that pour would be short in almost any lined glass I know.

 

[rhys333]

I'll have some updated observations to share soon regarding the DIY invert sugar preparation I documented in previous posts. I ended up using a half pound of my #1(ish) invert in a wheat saison, of all things. It turned out to be a really good beer, but in a brew like this there's nowhere for flaws to hide. I observed some things about the sugar and acid to baking soda ratios. It could be that less baking soda is needed...

 

[rhys333]

I’m giving dark mild another go, aiming for a full-bodied beer at 3.8% ABV and 23 IBUs. My focus is on hitting specific flavor notes, but I’m taking a non-traditional route with this one. The plan is to go with all-late hopping, omitting invert sugar, and I’m going with Windsor yeast for the low attenuation. Fingers crossed!

NO RULES DARK MILD 3.8% ABV 24 IBU
78% Superior pale malt
11.5% C75
8.5% Torrified Wheat
2% Black patent
3oz EKG @ 10 (5 gallon batch)
Windsor yeast

 

[An Ankoù]

I’m giving dark mild another go, aiming for a full-bodied beer at 3.8% ABV and 23 IBUs. My focus is on hitting specific flavor notes, but I’m taking a non-traditional route with this one. The plan is to go with all-late hopping, omitting invert sugar, and I’m going with Windsor yeast for the low attenuation. Fingers crossed!

NO RULES DARK MILD 3.8% ABV 24 IBU
78% Superior pale malt
11.5% C75
8.5% Torrified Wheat
2% Black patent
3oz EKG @ 10 (5 gallon batch)
Windsor yeast

I'm not sure about the late EKGs. I don't think I've ever tasted a hoppy mild. All the rest looks good but I'd put the bittering charge in at the beginning.
On the other hand, you might just be inventing a new style "mild IPA" or something. Let us know how it turns out. As you say, there are no rules.

 

[rhys333]

I'm not sure about the late EKGs. I don't think I've ever tasted a hoppy mild. All the rest looks good but I'd put the bittering charge in at the beginning.
On the other hand, you might just be inventing a new style "mild IPA" or something. Let us know how it turns out. As you say, there are no rules.

Thanks, I'll be sure to report back. I'm loading up on the late EKG just to see what happens. I think it brings a mild enough flavor that i'll probably get away with it.

 

[An Ankoù]

My own house mild was the result of a misunderstanding. I'd have to look up the malt bill, but I had intended using a particular English hop at the beginning of the boil, but they didn't smell quite right and my only other open packet of hops was Harlequin.
Here's the misunderstanding. I had thought that any old hop, used early in the boil, at relatively low IBUs, in a malt dominant beer would make little difference. In fact it made a world of difference and is unlike any other mild I've ever made and suits my taste perfectly.
Sometimes the best results are unplanned.

 

[rhys333]

My own house mild was the result of a misunderstanding. I'd have to look up the malt bill, but I had intended using a particular English hop at the beginning of the boil, but they didn't smell quite right and my only other open packet of hops was Harlequin.
Here's the misunderstanding. I had thought that any old hop, used early in the boil, at relatively low IBUs, in a malt dominant beer would make little difference. In fact it made a world of difference and is unlike any other mild I've ever made and suits my taste perfectly.
Sometimes the best results are unplanned.

I've never tried harlequin, but it sounds great. I could see the stonefruit flavors working well.

 

[DuncB]

Latest mild.